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Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic?
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nicoga3000
Saint Nic
My coworker is a recovering alcoholic. What he told me is that it's a sensation - a trigger. He was clean for x years, had a drink, and immediately activated that pleasure center and couldn't turn it off. He's since been clean longer than x, so good on him.
But that said, I believe it's definitely on an individual basis. Most alcoholics I've ever met have said they simply don't want to risk it and had such bad past experiences that even chancing it isn't worth it.
But that said, I believe it's definitely on an individual basis. Most alcoholics I've ever met have said they simply don't want to risk it and had such bad past experiences that even chancing it isn't worth it.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Yes, you (probably) are.
It's a habit, and despite being able to cut those off, the neural pathway itself never truly degrades into non-existence. So yes, once you had an addictive habit pattern, that can be recalled at any later time, if allowed.
It might be difficult to accept that the vast majority of human action and thought is not governed by reasoned self-awareness, but habits are there for efficiency, not flexibility. It's possible, obviously, to loop back on them and change accordingly, but that does require more energy than just rolling with it (since saving energy is the reason they exist in the first place). Though 'how' that actually happens isn't understood at this time, what can be measured is the neural response to certain stimuli. Even in someone who has made extreme changes, the 'addict pulse' can still be measured. The difference is that it is blocked or rewired into something else, and with time (and practise) that 'blockade' becomes stronger, but the point is that the original pulse never goes away.
It is, therefore, unfortunately possible to undo that dam ( unwire the rewire, if you will) and fall back into the original pattern. And most people, whether we are talking about gambling, drinking, or even mental health (depression), do fall back into those habits over and over again.
The real question isn't whether someone is an addict, but in what association they turn to that pattern. For instance, if drinking is done in a multitude of choices, the addiction loop might not form (speculation on my part). But if it is a consistent response to a certain range of stimuli, that loop will almost assuredly form.
And then there is the environment, and group identities and sentiments that come into play. Addiction is understood very differently today by social scientists then it used to be, but this is basically the gist of current psychology on it. Oh, but just for reference: it is easier for people to make changes to their lives under the feeling of a higher power, as paradoxical (or cynical) as that may sound. One reason might be that man is a spiritual being by default, while another might be that believing in one's ability to succeed without being alone prevents people from giving up along the way. So AA isn't bullshit, but it's obviously not hardcore science either.
"what it takes" to become addicted is more of a sociology question by the way. It might happen, it might not, depending on a lot of factors. And the term 'addiction' itself is of course highly problematic (for a social scientist), because that makes a metaphysical presumption about behavior in terms of desirability or success. Thinking of it in terms of feedback loops for psychology and addiction for cultural sociology is somewhat more productive.
I would recommend 'the power of habit' if you want to read more on this. It's written as pop-science and easily accessible.
It's a habit, and despite being able to cut those off, the neural pathway itself never truly degrades into non-existence. So yes, once you had an addictive habit pattern, that can be recalled at any later time, if allowed.
It might be difficult to accept that the vast majority of human action and thought is not governed by reasoned self-awareness, but habits are there for efficiency, not flexibility. It's possible, obviously, to loop back on them and change accordingly, but that does require more energy than just rolling with it (since saving energy is the reason they exist in the first place). Though 'how' that actually happens isn't understood at this time, what can be measured is the neural response to certain stimuli. Even in someone who has made extreme changes, the 'addict pulse' can still be measured. The difference is that it is blocked or rewired into something else, and with time (and practise) that 'blockade' becomes stronger, but the point is that the original pulse never goes away.
It is, therefore, unfortunately possible to undo that dam ( unwire the rewire, if you will) and fall back into the original pattern. And most people, whether we are talking about gambling, drinking, or even mental health (depression), do fall back into those habits over and over again.
The real question isn't whether someone is an addict, but in what association they turn to that pattern. For instance, if drinking is done in a multitude of choices, the addiction loop might not form (speculation on my part). But if it is a consistent response to a certain range of stimuli, that loop will almost assuredly form.
And then there is the environment, and group identities and sentiments that come into play. Addiction is understood very differently today by social scientists then it used to be, but this is basically the gist of current psychology on it. Oh, but just for reference: it is easier for people to make changes to their lives under the feeling of a higher power, as paradoxical (or cynical) as that may sound. One reason might be that man is a spiritual being by default, while another might be that believing in one's ability to succeed without being alone prevents people from giving up along the way. So AA isn't bullshit, but it's obviously not hardcore science either.
"what it takes" to become addicted is more of a sociology question by the way. It might happen, it might not, depending on a lot of factors. And the term 'addiction' itself is of course highly problematic (for a social scientist), because that makes a metaphysical presumption about behavior in terms of desirability or success. Thinking of it in terms of feedback loops for psychology and addiction for cultural sociology is somewhat more productive.
I would recommend 'the power of habit' if you want to read more on this. It's written as pop-science and easily accessible.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
Nope. I had a major problem with alcohol a few years ago. Have no desire to drink today.
Mexen
Member
No. I think you can stop being one. I should know. I went from insane alcohol intake (there's a whole thread on that but I won't get into it) to 5-8 lagers a month. I have zero craving to exceed that amount. Like, sometimes even just having one feels like crap. idk, I just don't have a taste for it anymore.
It's the fucking cigarettes that are a problem! I've been trying to quit for a while. Currently, I'm down to one pack a week. At my worst, it was 2-3 packs a day (that's 40-60 fucking sticks).
Seriously, I wanna quit completely... but it's hard *Scott Pilgrim voice*
If you quit smoking, I have respect for you. Seriously! You're a legend in my eyes. One day, I too, will give up the habit. Just... Not tonight. Excuse me.
It's the fucking cigarettes that are a problem! I've been trying to quit for a while. Currently, I'm down to one pack a week. At my worst, it was 2-3 packs a day (that's 40-60 fucking sticks).
Seriously, I wanna quit completely... but it's hard *Scott Pilgrim voice*
If you quit smoking, I have respect for you. Seriously! You're a legend in my eyes. One day, I too, will give up the habit. Just... Not tonight. Excuse me.
How much drinking does it take until you reach alcoholic level? Legitimately curious here. I average about 1-4 drinks about 4-6 nights a week (in total). I'm rarely super hungover from that, but I will occasionally wake up with a mild headache. After dinner, I usually like to unwind with a couple drinks (I'd say MAX 4 beers or mixed drinks, but the average is usually 2 drinks) on week days, and on Fridays and Saturday nights I'll have a little bit more than that. I usually try to get drunk (not belligerent, but tipsy) on either Friday or Saturday night. Oh, and the Friday-Saturday thing is always social, but the weekday drinks are usually alone as I play games before bed time.
Is that normal or is that a lot?
Is that normal or is that a lot?
User Name Here
Member
No. Like one of my cousins, you might drink yourself to death at one point.
Anyone can overcome almost any adverse situation with enough support and determination.
My dad was addicted to alcohol back when I was a teenager, went through rehab on the NHS (in particular their use of AA), and found his treatment so awful that it motivated him to start his own addiction therapy business afterwards
I don't really know the nuances of what they teach to addicts, but he basically says that AA was more or less a cult that's designed to keep you going every day, and that when people treat alcoholism as a "disease" it takes all responsibility from the addict away which doesn't help either; they need to look at the reasons that make them drink/do drugs/whatever and decide whether they are damaging enough to their life to want to change them. He hasn't drank since (more than a decade now), and is also totally fine being around people who are drinking, so at the very least its working for him
This is the only experience I've come across with addiction so don't know how representative it is, but given his success since I'd at least think he has a point
I don't really know the nuances of what they teach to addicts, but he basically says that AA was more or less a cult that's designed to keep you going every day, and that when people treat alcoholism as a "disease" it takes all responsibility from the addict away which doesn't help either; they need to look at the reasons that make them drink/do drugs/whatever and decide whether they are damaging enough to their life to want to change them. He hasn't drank since (more than a decade now), and is also totally fine being around people who are drinking, so at the very least its working for him
This is the only experience I've come across with addiction so don't know how representative it is, but given his success since I'd at least think he has a point
I tend to draw a line between people who are dependent on alcohol (alcoholics) and people who picked up drinking as a relatively bad, frequent habit.
If you're using drinking to cope with your problems.....if you're drinking heavily at times when it is inappropriate (work, lunchtime, early morning).......if you it significantly impairs your ability to function when you stay sober for an extended period.......then yeah, you are probably an alocholic.
If you are drinking to help get to sleep......to entertain yourself during an evening of videogames.....because it makes going out with friends more fun....or because your friends are always out drinking.......then you may have just picked up a really bad habit.
I drank 7 nights per week for a long time because it was a nice way to cap off the day and I didn't like having to fall asleep sober. Once I started to total up how much money I was spending on alcohol (and the cigarettes to go with it) I tried to curb my habits pretty significantly. I wouldn't call it pure cold turkey quitting, but I was expecting a 70-80% reduction in alcohol/nicotine intake to be much more of a challenge than it was. So I'm not sure if I was legitimately an addict, or someone that just indulged too often and too much. The main problem I face now is that most of my friends are still pretty frequent substance users, and it's not that much fun hanging out with them when I am trying to save alcohol for weekends and special occaisions.
If you're using drinking to cope with your problems.....if you're drinking heavily at times when it is inappropriate (work, lunchtime, early morning).......if you it significantly impairs your ability to function when you stay sober for an extended period.......then yeah, you are probably an alocholic.
If you are drinking to help get to sleep......to entertain yourself during an evening of videogames.....because it makes going out with friends more fun....or because your friends are always out drinking.......then you may have just picked up a really bad habit.
I drank 7 nights per week for a long time because it was a nice way to cap off the day and I didn't like having to fall asleep sober. Once I started to total up how much money I was spending on alcohol (and the cigarettes to go with it) I tried to curb my habits pretty significantly. I wouldn't call it pure cold turkey quitting, but I was expecting a 70-80% reduction in alcohol/nicotine intake to be much more of a challenge than it was. So I'm not sure if I was legitimately an addict, or someone that just indulged too often and too much. The main problem I face now is that most of my friends are still pretty frequent substance users, and it's not that much fun hanging out with them when I am trying to save alcohol for weekends and special occaisions.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Depends on the person, some people just have addictive personalities where self control just doesn't enter into the equation, it's a losing battle. People can change over time however, and I wonder if there are ways we can tweak our neurology to loosen some of those receptor bonds some people have that are so fiercely wired towards addiction. Me? I quit drinking altogether but it was more out of preserving mental health as even some light drinking can shift me towards depressive states that last for weeks.
You were turning up to work with a hangover though- not drunk out of your mind.
You were overdoing it, but it doesn't sound like you actually have a problem controlling it- I would just be worried that the heavy use might have done an number on you.
FreddieQuell
Member
Try electronic cigarettes, It's super easy to get started and wean yourself off of the nicotine.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
Let me modify your statement a bit - Once an addict, always an addict. Addicts lack a part of the brain involved in feeling pleasure, and overcompensate.
But, lots of people use chemicals for lots of reasons. They aren't all necessarily 'genetic' addicts. Some people grow out of it, others use a restrained amount their entire lives and it's never a problem. There's a lot left to be learned about why these differences exist in different people.
Some people do need to do that daily battle not to use, every day. Other people just need to stop sticking needles in themselves and smoke weed instead. I'm in favor of whatever allows people to be happy and functional.
But, lots of people use chemicals for lots of reasons. They aren't all necessarily 'genetic' addicts. Some people grow out of it, others use a restrained amount their entire lives and it's never a problem. There's a lot left to be learned about why these differences exist in different people.
Some people do need to do that daily battle not to use, every day. Other people just need to stop sticking needles in themselves and smoke weed instead. I'm in favor of whatever allows people to be happy and functional.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
It's all about you, and what you believe, OP. I've gone years on/off. I don't believe those without a choice can just shut it off..that's just me, though..
I am not sure I can answer your question... that being said I am the definition of a high functioning alcoholic...
The fact you could go 5 to 6 days and miss a day of not drinking is astonishing to me.... I haven't missed a day of drinking in probably 900+ days.
I assume people can change... I myself... I don't think I can nor do I want to.
If your okay with it then I guess no one else has a choice right?
The fact you could go 5 to 6 days and miss a day of not drinking is astonishing to me.... I haven't missed a day of drinking in probably 900+ days.
I assume people can change... I myself... I don't think I can nor do I want to.
If your okay with it then I guess no one else has a choice right?
My therapist told me years ago there's a difference between an alcoholic and a drunk.
A drunk can walk away when it suits them, even if there is physical withdrawal, whereas an alcoholic can walk away, but struggles with the mind trying to convince them to drink, just a little.
Having watched family members, and knowing my own struggle, I believe that. I also believe I'm an alcoholic, whereas my Grandpa was just a drunk.
A drunk can walk away when it suits them, even if there is physical withdrawal, whereas an alcoholic can walk away, but struggles with the mind trying to convince them to drink, just a little.
Having watched family members, and knowing my own struggle, I believe that. I also believe I'm an alcoholic, whereas my Grandpa was just a drunk.
Thatonemoor
Member
The "ones a alcoholic, always a alcoholic" narrative is guilt tripping created by AA to convince people that they need to give into a higher power Christian God in order to get over their substance abuse. Not to say that substance abuse isn't a real problem, I just believe AA is nothing more then religion. We need to start creating an actual therapy net for people that are alcoholics.
Agree. You have to have that mindset.
I can drink for days, weeks at a time, hard liquor. I can also go months, years without a drink. Job issues over the past 2 years...I was drinking heavy in the beginning. I haven't really had a drink in over a year.
I dont consider myself an alcoholic. I also dont get so drunk I pass out or forget stuff. I pass by liquor stores all the time...and I probably spent more money in there on the lottery than alcohol over the past 2 years...lol. I knew someone who drunk rubbing alcohol because thats all they could afford at times. I knew someone who drunk beer damn near every day...but didnt really get drunk. If they did they hid it well.
Those IMO are alcoholics.
I guess I'm just a drunk. Yay?
Probably. Alcohol for some is like a bad marriage -- once you're divorced, it's best to go your separate ways and keep it that way.
It's about your relationship with alcohol, not the amount of consumption. If you yearn for it every time there's a problem in your life, that is the real dependency. If you romanticize the thought of alcohol -- you put it on a pedestal and wish you could be like others, that is also a sign. A non-alcoholic supposedly can "take it or leave it" without much thought. Plus if you have a tendency to try to only drink 2 or 3, but end up drinking considerably more when loosened up, etc.
Alcoholism isn't clearly defined or understood. Even professionals supposedly say "only you know if you are one, no one else can tell you" which is kind of a load of bull IMO.
It's about your relationship with alcohol, not the amount of consumption. If you yearn for it every time there's a problem in your life, that is the real dependency. If you romanticize the thought of alcohol -- you put it on a pedestal and wish you could be like others, that is also a sign. A non-alcoholic supposedly can "take it or leave it" without much thought. Plus if you have a tendency to try to only drink 2 or 3, but end up drinking considerably more when loosened up, etc.
Alcoholism isn't clearly defined or understood. Even professionals supposedly say "only you know if you are one, no one else can tell you" which is kind of a load of bull IMO.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
Yes.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
I believe that AA is just going with the worst case scenario. It's not exactly helpful to people like me to say, "Hey, it's ok to have a nip every once in a while."
Just so you know, there are alternatives to AA out there. It just takes a bit more leg work to find them.
Yes.
There's a reason for which most alcoholism treatments aim towards full abstinence. Programs to learn how to drink safely and in a healthy way do exist, but they're aimed towards young people and those with a short story of addiction.
Most addicts can't learn self-control and behavioral patterns to avoid relapses.
At least this is the professional view in my country. I'm not from the US so the Christian stuff and the 12 Steps and all that don't apply.
There's a reason for which most alcoholism treatments aim towards full abstinence. Programs to learn how to drink safely and in a healthy way do exist, but they're aimed towards young people and those with a short story of addiction.
Most addicts can't learn self-control and behavioral patterns to avoid relapses.
At least this is the professional view in my country. I'm not from the US so the Christian stuff and the 12 Steps and all that don't apply.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Because of AAs monopoly on alcoholism because of its social stigma. At least regards to alcohol there has been a shift away from abstinence towards moderation
John Kowalski
Banned
Be careful OP. Best not to test it.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
So much, very much, this.
For such a progressive forum there a shocking amount of people in this thread parroting AA dogma unquestioned.
OP, it is different for everyone. Talk to a specialist, preferably a doctor, who uses evidence-based techniques, not a book written by an untrained Evangelical 80 years ago.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I did the same then I grew older and realized drinking every day was costly, not worth it, and no one wanted to keep doing this at the age of 24. I grew out of it.
Stigma is a huge part of it. My grandfather used to drink whiskey in decent quantities at work for a huge company pretty much most of the day and so did those around him. The social stigma has increased dramatically. Hell, the founding fathers were drunk most of the time.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Follow up. There was an article in the Atlantic earlier this year about something like this
http://www.theatlantic.com/features...irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
To the OPs point, the statement is qualifiably not true
Its seems science based medicine says almost the opposite, its a chemical process which modern medicine can fix. Not the 12 steps
There is a lot more in the story and the drug described isn't really a wonder drug that's gonna solve all the worlds alcohol problems
http://www.theatlantic.com/features...irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
To the OPs point, the statement is qualifiably not true
Its seems science based medicine says almost the opposite, its a chemical process which modern medicine can fix. Not the 12 steps
There is a lot more in the story and the drug described isn't really a wonder drug that's gonna solve all the worlds alcohol problems
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Most importantly for the question at hand of "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic?"
No. That's largely AA speak. And AA, as we know, is a pseudo-scientific, blatantly religious, cult-like ineffective mess of self victimization whose success rate is pretty much even with those who never enter the program at all.
I have friends who were alcoholics, and now drink socially. An addictive personality does not mean you are eternally doomed and powerless.
I have friends who were alcoholics, and now drink socially. An addictive personality does not mean you are eternally doomed and powerless.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Everyone deserves a second chance.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Pseudoscience has no place in medicine.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
its a hate for bad science that harms people
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The idea that you're stuck with one label is absurd, especially given that you successfully cut back.
How many "diseases" do you know have only one method of treatment, and that treatment is admitting you're powerless and to turn your life over to God? How many diseases can be talked out, require no medical professionals, and make no effort to improve their rate of effectiveness?
EDIT: The best intervention ever.
I believe in a Christian God, but my God gave we humans the tools we need. Bible, if applicable, each other, doctors, nurses, family, etc.
If you're hoping for Divine Intervention, you're going to be disappointed. Ain't gonna happen. I got myself into this addiction mess, I have tools and earthly help to get me out. There's no boot-strapping, just people who want me to be better, and are helping me.
Sober for a long while, sometimes just because I know I'm cared for, and worried about.Makes a person have feels.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
Since when are the twelve steps scientific? It is explicitly a spiritual program, in fact. Some of the dogma of the Big Book is 'This is what works for us, and millions of alcoholics etc.'
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
That was a nice find. Thanks.
I've seen this close.
But then you hear recovery stories...
So I guess the answer is so-so.
Rapscallion
Member
Depends on the person. Some people who have struggled with alcoholism only need that one drink to set them back. Others don't
umop_3pisdn
Member
AA seems more like psychology than medicine (if anything, I mean), and while I'm an advocate for psychology as a discipline, a lot of it (like personality theory) is hard to submit to the same rigours as medicine, there's the sense that a lot of it is heuristic, like you still have Freudians out there doing their thing and having success. Honestly I can sort of see a decent theoretical justification for the 'higher power' thing. I'm not a theist but adopting that framework has some features that might be useful. Erik Eriksson said that a lot of trauma had to do with an inability to successfully detach from the primary care giver. When you successfully detach, that sense of care or safety that was associated with say a mother figure is projected onto the whole world, and this is the sustaining force that allows us to go into the world with all of its dangers and thrive, and this process is basically acquiring the psycho-social virtue of hope. An extreme negative case of the failure to detach is like narcissistic personality disorder, where other people aren't seen as separate beings at all but are actually seen as an extension of the self. God is often seen as a sort of archetypal parent, and parents are seen as the archetypal social relationship, and as beings that reflect on our behaviours we actually have relationships with ourselves, so I can see 'God' or whatever being a convenient means of working within that sort of space. Emotional regulation or affect regulation, which is one of the key components of addiction and successful coping, is drawn down primarily 'social' lines, the areas of our brain that deal with managing our emotions are the same ones we use to navigate a social environment. So there's sort of a sense of self and a sense of an other both 'in here' and 'out there' that we make use of a lot. Even in something like meditation, projecting a sense of being-ness outwards, which encompasses the self, can be a convenient mental device for forgiving yourself, loving yourself, or developing equanimity. It's not really a rational thing though, so it doesn't necessarily make the most sense, but I could see how it could be useful even with the actual question of a 'higher power' left almost totally irrelevant.
CarpeDeezNutz
Member
It sounds like you fall under the "controlled drinking" group. There is a school of thought that once you are about to fall into the booze abyss you can come out of it by controlling your drinking habits.
Mexen
Member
I've never tried those before but I think I'll take your advice and try them out.
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