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ONM: Eiji Aonuma questions Zelda's traditions
- Thread starter axisofweevils
- Start date
Black Door
Banned
Lots of hyperbole here.
The best/scariest part of that interview, is Aonuma only played it because it had Sky in the title. It shows how insular they are, but at the same time shows they don't first go looking elsewhere for inspiration in game mechanics, which is great in an increasingly context sensitive control scheme world.
Also if Zelda U has playable Zelda, you can thank me. I've been sending him design tips over MiiVerse.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Then they are less likely to tell their friends. It is less likely to sell by word of mouth. It is therefore less likely to get to that 6 million point in the first place. I put little stock in marketing. It can move the dial a little, but I do not believe it plays as large a role as some people think. Ironic that we're having this conversation in a Nintendo-related thread. A big part of Nintendo's cancer is that they refuse to accept the simple logic that high-sales = that's what our fans want and low sales = that's what our fans don't want.
Bad example, because TP and SS were both well-received, but yet, it does make it a higher quality game. We can argue about our opinions of what the word "quality" means, but I'd say a very fair, a very rational metric for determining "quality" is this: who spent their money on it?
And you're still missing the point. "Quality" to you and me might mean different things, that's why I said "in the consumer's eyes". Arguably, Hangover 3 was funnier than those three other movies you mentioned (can't say for sure; the only theater movie I saw within the last 18 months was Lego Movie). Maybe that's what people want? And therefore, maybe that's what people spend money on.
No.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE2Dc1sx71U
The game was action, action, action. The maps were sprawling, the tone was darker and more "mature", the combat looked sick, there was horseback riding, the music was orchestrated.
And there was nary a puzzle in sight.
It wasn't until just before launch that we began seeing the Wolf-Link stuff, and even then people weren't aware of how puzzle-y the game ended up being (admittedly, it was far less puzzle-y than certain other Zeldas).
We may disagree on this point (that sales = quality) but the fact is undeniable: Zelda series has been selling less and less. OoT was a high point in sales, and TP was another high point. What did those games do? How did they differ from the rest? I think it's easy to pick out the differences.
I was responding to the guy that said that sales are the best way to determine a game's quality. I disagree with that ideal. The post is not related to my enjoyment of TP.
Besides, I love Twilight Princess, and I agree with your points about the game. If you think about it, TP sounds like a fan rumor. It has realistic graphics, a huge world that you can traverse on Epona, 9 big, atmospheric dungeons, the ability to turn into a wolf, and a dark, mature storyline. If rumors like that were revealed prior to E3 2004, people would have dismissed them for being too good to be true.
Lord_Byron28
Member
I believe Aonuma stressed at a later point that his words being misinterpreted and that he wasn't going to make a Skyrim like game for Zelda. MH3 was referenced a lot by the Zelda team when they were developing SS. While I see some inspiration, it was still a Zelda title. Id expect something like that with Skyrim.
Edit: here is what Aonuma said
Ah gotcha, misinterpreted your post, my bad.
The part I highlighted is why people thought it looked amazing. Do you really think people will not buy a Zelda game unless it has no puzzles? I don't think you realize why people love the Zelda series.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
The Legend of Link : a Zelda between Worlds.
Zelda of all the big Nintendo properties is the one that suffered most for being SD, as it strives for realism, and needed more detail to make the art shine through (the exception being windwaker obviously, though WWHD looks amazing). Unless something is horribly wrong about the reveal it will get ungodly amounts of hype by virtue of that alone.
Care to elaborate?
They need not go any further than me. I was one of the few lone wolfs who stood in the rain, giving Phantom Hourglass to this day the lowest score on its Metacritic!*
I will guide you Nintendo. Take my hand!
* (the quote they use is from my real original review on Modojo, but it links to someone else's review now - not mine)
EmCeeGramr
Member
This is completely false. Link was seen pushing blocks in the E3 2004 trailer, Wolf Link was teased at GDC 2005, and officially revealed at E3 2005 more than a year before launch. Demos of the game at press events showed off both action and puzzle solving in dungeons as well as minigames like fishing.
You've constructed an alternate universe where OoT and TP don't have a heavy puzzle focus.
Amazeballs
Member
Whiskeymatt
Member
I'm glad to here Aonuma continue this line of thought that he's been showing since the lead up to A Link Between Worlds. The Legend of Zelda is a series that has been around for so long that many of its tropes and series staples are overdue for some sort of tweak. We've seen it done successfully before (I'd argue most noticeably and successfully in Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, the Four Swords game, and A Link Between Worlds), but more is always welcome. It isn't something that should be done without a lot of thought and consideration behind each change, though. Subverting and playing with series tropes without fully knowing why they're doing it could make a new Zelda game not feel like Zelda, which wouldn't be the goal. You'd want to play on the fans' expectations from those tropes in order to add significance to the meanings behind whatever the change ends up being.
Lord_Byron28
Member
Outside of TP and perhaps OoT, I think they have strayed away from the more realistic look. Id prefer for them to do more abstract and interesting artstyles. I liked SS artstyle but I think the hardware really limited its artstyle.
Great. The fact that the leap from MGS1 to MGS2 feels bigger and more substantial to me from a design perspective than Ocarina of Time to Twilight Princess is pretty pathetic.
It's actually pretty sad, I used to be a huge Zelda fan a few years ago. I just got really jaded over the past year or two for some reason. Find it hard to care about the series now if it continues going down the same path.
It's actually pretty sad, I used to be a huge Zelda fan a few years ago. I just got really jaded over the past year or two for some reason. Find it hard to care about the series now if it continues going down the same path.
also never use motion again please thanks
Amazeballs
Member
Even those games weren't realistic. They were heavily stylized with gritty textures, the latter of which is often confused for realism.
Yeah oot and TP have just as much a puzzle focus as SS or WW. Majora is the one that doesn't focus on dungeons or Puzzles nearly as much and it sold the worst of all the 3D Zeldas (last I checked it was 3.36 vs. 3.31 million for Skyward, and that was January 2012, so I assume SS passed it by now, 2 years later with 50k sales to make up).
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Why do Aonuma apologists always cite Ocarina of Time as one of his triumphs? He had nothing at all to do with the style of that game other than a few dungeon layouts. So yes, Twilight Princess was a tremendous success, but Skyward Sword and even Wind Waker's sales are a bit weak in comparison.
Skyward Sword had the most challenging and engaging combat and some of the best dungeons in the series.
umm... no? Zelda has always had exaggerated cartoonish characters. Twilight Princess included.
I think easy is OK as long as it's still engaging. Wind Waker and ALBW were very easy but still paced very well and enjoyable to run through and explore. Minish Cap and Skyward Sword were easy and just boring, since enemy variety was so low and dungeons were so linear - as in most puzzles were contained in a single room. You would walk into this room and know exactly what to do, do it, and then move on. Repeat. The games were asking the player to solve rooms, not dungeons. There was almost nothing interesting going on outside of dungeons in either game, which served only to underline how linear and forced each title seemed. It made a lot of sense when I found out that the same guy directed these two weakest Zelda games (all IMHO of course).
Also, I think it's funny how he says "question tradiations", and then compares what he might like to do to TLoZ. I think a few people aren't picking up on this - he doesn't want to turn Zelda into something else, he wants to more broadly pick elements from the entire series.
I think Mario should stay Mario, and they should make a new IP or new IP spinoff to take care of the more grand 3D title that so many people want. A latter day Banjo Kazooie.
vxXJordanXxv
Banned
No sir, No.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Cant wait. Can never get tired of Zelda as its the only game in its style getting a new one is like an event or something to me.
Yes, he said that Twilight Princess would do that, later on after TPs release he said the next Zelda game would not be similar to others or use the same formula/format. Both were awful games derived from OOT.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I'll take Aonuma's words seriously when we get another Zelda as idiosyncratic yet well conceived as Majora's Mask. And I'll care more about turning the whole formula on its head when they can figure out obvious shit like not having boring excessively long intros, piss easy difficulty, or worthless un-gratifying exploration that never yields anything more interesting than rupees and heart pieces. Link Between Worlds isn't a terrible start, but it's not perfect either, and whether Nintendo can figure this stuff out without leaning heavily on a classic like LttP is still up in the air.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Awful but better than about 96% of other games released
superpickleman
Member
This is the man who brought us Majora's Mask when the Zelda franchise was handed down to him. As long as he's not feeling pressured to follow OoT's footprints again and they just let the man do what he's going to do, we'll be ok.
I just hope they will still focus on Dungeon design, not dedicating all their efforts to the exploration.
Between the bland exploration of TP, but with the greatest dungeons in the series, and the great wonder exploration of WW, but with dull dungeons, I vastly prefer the first option.
a perfect balance would be welcomed, of course
Between the bland exploration of TP, but with the greatest dungeons in the series, and the great wonder exploration of WW, but with dull dungeons, I vastly prefer the first option.
a perfect balance would be welcomed, of course
That was the reason for me not to buy it at that time. I'm glad that there was a Wii U bundle with 2 Wiimotes, that supported Plus. I bought that and then bought the 2nd Zelda for Wii right afterwards.
Eh, in my opinion there isn't a single Zelda game with good combat. It's visually entertaining in TP and WW at least, but still ultimately boring. I wouldn't mind them improving it of course, but hopefully in a way that doesn't break up the natural flow of the game like SS combat could at times. Making every bokoblin a mini setpiece got old pretty quick. Only being able to really take on one enemy at a time also made the fights feel a lot less dynamic to me as well.
NeonZ
Member
How was Skyward Sword "totally Aonuma's baby" compared to previous Zelda titles when it wasn't even directed by him? There are some big design differences between Skyward Sword and the previous Aonuma directed Zelda games, even if it shares some of the flaws too. The overworld itself, with the separate linear "segments" actually resembles Minish Cap's in a way, one of Fujibayashi's previous games.
Twilight Princess was always promoted as inspired by OoT. That was from where the whole hype for the game came from. And Skyward Sword did change the elements that were mentioned in interviews, like the overworld structure becoming more dungeon-like, it just resulted in different problems, like completely separate parts of the overworld, without any connections, and revisiting dungeons, which just resulted in backtracking due to the lack of multiple paths to them.
TheCongressman1
Member
I liked the combat in SS somewhat. The concept is great, but there wasn't any variety. Just the same thing with every encounter like you said. Moblins were neat because of being able to take them out in several ways, but that also got old after a while. Same for the other few enemies, they just got old after the first couple of times.
TP had something going with all the moves Link had. Still not as good as it could be, but I loved the different moves.
I think items as weapons should make a return. Fire and Ice rod in 3D would be great, you could swing it around. Or you could also aim and shoot with it. And then Roc's cape to pull of aerial moves would be amazing.
I think Link Between Worlds is sure proof he is serious when he says these types of things. Not only is that game incredibly non-linear for a Zelda game, it also introduced an item rental system which changed up the game significantly (especially if any of you have played in Hero mode, it makes you really cautious).
So, I could really see non-linear dungeons and some form of multiplayer component in Zelda Wii U making an appearance. It really excited me that we really have no idea what the game is really going to be like in many aspects. I'm happy Aonuma is taking this route with the series.
So, I could really see non-linear dungeons and some form of multiplayer component in Zelda Wii U making an appearance. It really excited me that we really have no idea what the game is really going to be like in many aspects. I'm happy Aonuma is taking this route with the series.
No matter what you say about the rest of the series, I can't really think of the combat in Zelda 2 as anything but good..
Orniletter
Banned
I really, really liked A Link Between World´s approach to how you are able to traverse the land (few roadblocks etc) and how you can make Hyrule your bitch...
They can improve a few things going forward though:
-don´t throw all the Items in a shop, let players work for them ....like they could be hidden in a mini dungeon or something
-make the Items you get in the dungeons more meaningful.
The future is bright !
They can improve a few things going forward though:
-don´t throw all the Items in a shop, let players work for them ....like they could be hidden in a mini dungeon or something
-make the Items you get in the dungeons more meaningful.
The future is bright !
But the real question is can he execute it? ALBW is a great game, but if they are going to be at odds I'll choose complexity over non-linearity. Since the developers couldn't guarantee which items you would have going into any dungeon beyond the 1 required to enter it every dungeon but the last was designed to be completed with 0-1 items. Also, since any dungeon could be completed in any order they couldn't ramp up the difficulty as the game progressed. Thus the non-linearity ended up hurting the game. It was too non-linear.
It may work better if you are only given choices 2-3 dungeons at a time so that they can increase difficulty and complexity over time.
Dragon's Dogma + Skyrim + Zelda for me.
Yeah I'll believe it when I see it.
They told pretty grand things for SS (cues taken from MonHun, huge monsters seen from afar, returning dungeons...) and they totally failed to execute it properly.
they even managed to make something as cool as flying over hyrule to get where you want lame.
They told pretty grand things for SS (cues taken from MonHun, huge monsters seen from afar, returning dungeons...) and they totally failed to execute it properly.
they even managed to make something as cool as flying over hyrule to get where you want lame.
The only copy I bought was for a present to a friend, so....yeah.