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[Aquamarine]

Copyright reform is a whole 'nother discussion.



That last bit sounds pretty slippery slope to me.

You can't tell me that emulators don't hurt sales of Virtual Console games for Nintendo.

SURELY there have been lots of people who forego spending $5 to play it on the Wii....when they could just conveniently download it for free and play it on their PC?

I consider the downloading of actively sold games (by the copyright holder) as PIRACY. Obviously, if a game hasn't been sold for many years (and the copyright holder doesn't profit any more from it), its "piracy" status is greatly diminished.

In that respect, old emulators are "vehicles to access piracy" along the same vein of modchips and custom firmware.
I don't think it's morally wrong for Nintendo to pursue legal action if they are being used in a way that directly hurts Nintendo's bottom line.

Do I WANT Nintendo to pursue legal action? Hell no. I respect the emulation community and applaud their efforts in terms of preservation and their tireless ingenuity in reverse-engineering. I think they're vitally important for the future of video games after companies have gone bankrupt, and the last thing I want is for Nintendo to shut them down.

 

[Hex]

Don't the RetroN machines use emulators?

I don't see what the big deal is. Sure some EMUs really would step over some legal bounds if they were implemented in such a manner, but AFAIK pre 3D era consoles don't use BIOSes. Nor do you even need to rip or download a game in the case of SNES and Genesis...

These are different, you plug your cart into it much like emus where you load your og discs.
Not quite the same as going to site A and downloading a rar full of rom files that you do not own and probably never owned while wink wink nudge nudging that you would neeeeeeever do something like that.

 

[Chû Totoro]

The shoe design of Air Jordans from 20 years ago should be public domain, anyway, as patents *do* expire in that time period. For instance, anyone is free to make and sell exact hardware replicas of NES and SNES systems, as their patents of have expired. However, you could not call them "Nintendo" anything (or Air Jordans for the shoes) as those aspects fall under trademarks, which are perpetual while used in commerce. So yes, you could make exact replica of old Air Jordans and sell them, just couldn't call them Air Jordans or use the "Jumpman" logo, etc.

So a Mario game without Mario...

I understand your point though and I'm agree with most of it. The only thing I don't like is that others are making money with something barely legal (make a Pario game

Spoiler

lol

with the same levels and mechanics but no Nintendo brands in it and I'm ok).

 

[ColdBlooder]

Bleem! had .0000000000000001% of the capital of Google. They had jack shit. Bleem wasn't even a licensed Dreamcast developer and their discs only work on certain revs of the Dreamcast.

Google has the money to fuck with Apple, not vice versa. Nintendo is going to end up Google's bitch if they try to force Google to remove emulators from the Play store.

Nintendo needs to sit down and shut the fuck up. And figure out their Wii U sales issues.

Wow. Why so angry? Nintendo dosen't need to "sit down and shut the f*** up" when emulators of their legacy consoles on another console interfere with Nintendos Virtual Console service.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

They are.

I thought the fact that Ouya would have emulators was a given.

.

The legality of emulators has been discussed to death on these boards. Emulators are completely legal on the basis of two facts: 1. They rely on original code to simply simulate/emulate the function of hardware, and 2. Gaming hardware is copyrighted on the basis of physical makeup and components, not functionality (it's the same reason that clone systems are also perfectly legal). If that sounds a little hokey it's because it is, but you also can't have people going around copyrighting sandwich making in any and all of its forms. So long as an emulator does not contain any copyrighted code like a BIOS or bits of the company's own emulator code then it's already well-established legal precedent.

Now for ROM's and ISO's, they're meant to be exact duplicates of commercial code which IS copyrighted and is thus another matter entirely. Legal precedent has been established that Fair Use extends to the ability to make digital copies of one's own license purchased code for personal use/convenience, but you are not allowed to distribute said copies in any way shape or form. So distribution of ROM's and ISO's is definitely illegal, but possession is a grey area. What this boils down to is if you ripped the ISO or dumped the ROM yourself from your own legally obtained copy, then you're in the legal clear so long as you keep it to yourself. But if you've downloaded it from some 3rd party website or gotten it from a friend then you're breaking the law. Of course one can see that enforcement of this particular is next to impossible when the burden of proof lies on the accuser and protection from unsubstantiated search and seizure is guaranteed in the BoR.

Whether emulation is ETHICAL or not is a matter or opinion, but it's certainly not illegal under current interpretation of the law so long as one follows the rules. I'm of the opinion that copyrights definitely should end at 50 years, especially for pieces of pop culture whose ideological ownership is usually undeniably in the hands of the people by then. I think this applies especially when the company in question has all but abandoned said property, i.e. those by now bankrupt/insolvent companies or ones that have not been distributed for more than a decade. But I also find the idea of selling emulators when one of the best functions is to preserve bits of pop culture for the world is pretty scummy, especially when most of the Android emulators out there are ports piggybacked on the years of hard work of open source coders and hobbyists and ESPECIALLY when they're also essentially making money off of games they didn't make.

I don't think you're quite getting the distinction here - to be fair, it's not an obvious distinction. I'm talking just about in the United States, here -

Patents provide legal protection for the inventions of inventors - the invention can be a thing, a machine, a process, and very commonly today software as well.

Copyright provides legal protection for original works made by creators - authors, mapmakers, and yes, software developers too (it was originally more popular to copyright software than patent it, but that is reversed now).

The NES itself, the hardware, was protected by patent law, not by copyright law (there are some efforts to use copyright to protect industrial designs, such as the "look" of the NES - I don't know if Nintendo did that at the time). But the chips and workings of the NES, the mechanical bits, are all solely in the realm of patent. Once the patent has expired, anyone can use the thing, process, to make a machine that uses those formerly patended techniques. So nothing is illegal about making a working NES imitation today.

Now, the software that plays on the NES is all firmly in the realm of copyright law - which has MUCH LONGER terms than patent law. Copyright protects creative works - and creating a clone of a creative work by making only small, nominal changes (Mario to Pario) would still be infringing on the copyrighted work.

So it's perfectly legal to sell imitation NES's (whose patent protected has lapsed), but illegal to sell copies of old NES games (because they are still protected by copyright).

I hope that made things clearer, and not even more confusing.

Also this.

 

[pixlexic]

The way I think it should work is if the company who owns the game wants people to play it for free they would release it to public for free. If they don't and do not want to then that is too bad for anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[Gilgamesh]

no guys roms are ok if you delete them within 24 hours trust me

 

[SmokedMeat]

Pretty much everything can emulate NES\SNES, I hope this isn't a selling point.

SNES games are on everything but my 3DS.

 

[televator]

These are different, you plug your cart into it much like emus where you load your og discs.
Not quite the same as going to site A and downloading a rar full of rom files that you do not own and probably never owned while wink wink nudge nudging that you would neeeeeeever do something like that.

Yeah... that's the point. You don't need to download games for those systems. Like I said.

Edit: Unless you think the Ouya can't use this device. Pretty sure as long as the Ouya has a USB input, it should work on it like any other computer.

 

[Persona7]

I don't know if I am getting a OUYA or a gamestick yet...


At least I can have another avenue to play my legal cartridge backups I made myself.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I don't know if I am getting a OUYA or a gamestick yet...


At least I can have another avenue to play my legal cartridge backups I made myself.

What kind of device do you need to do so? Serious question.

 

[PFD]

They are.

I thought the fact that Ouya would have emulators was a given.

Indeed. This is non-news as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Pociask]

So a Mario game without Mario...

I understand your point though and I'm agree with most of it. The only thing I don't like is that others are making money with something barely legal (make a Pario game

Spoiler

lol

with the same levels and mechanics but no Nintendo brands in it and I'm ok).

I don't think you're quite getting the distinction here - to be fair, it's not an obvious distinction. I'm talking just about in the United States, here -

Patents provide legal protection for the inventions of inventors - the invention can be a thing, a machine, a process, and very commonly today software as well.

Copyright provides legal protection for original works made by creators - authors, mapmakers, and yes, software developers too (it was originally more popular to copyright software than patent it, but that is reversed now).

The NES itself, the hardware, was protected by patent law, not by copyright law (there are some efforts to use copyright to protect industrial designs, such as the "look" of the NES - I don't know if Nintendo did that at the time). But the chips and workings of the NES, the mechanical bits, are all solely in the realm of patent. Once the patent has expired, anyone can use the thing, process, to make a machine that uses those formerly patended techniques. So nothing is illegal about making a working NES imitation today.

Now, the software that plays on the NES is all firmly in the realm of copyright law - which has MUCH LONGER terms than patent law. Copyright protects creative works - and creating a clone of a creative work by making only small, nominal changes (Mario to Pario) would still be infringing on the copyrighted work.

So it's perfectly legal to sell imitation NES's (whose patent protected has lapsed), but illegal to sell copies of old NES games (because they are still protected by copyright).

I hope that made things clearer, and not even more confusing.

 

[tinantlu]

Better launch lineup than the Wii U confirmed.

Better launch lineup than any system ever in the history of launches, so what's your point?

 

[Persona7]

What kind of device do you need to do so? Serious question.

The Retrode.

http://www.retrode.org/

it allows you to backup the cartridges you own as well as the old save files that may be on the cartridge.

SNES/Genesis, expansion ports will be available

it is available in the USA at this link, but it seems to be out of stock

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/retrode-en.html

 

[Platy]

I know very little about the Ouya .... but how would you put roms in it ?

 

[Nekki]

Lol, I was just being an extremist. I know emulators serve a lot of good purposes, but one can't deny a majority of its use seems to be oriented towards playing games illegaly.

I guess it's the same old story with hacking devices to play homebrew.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Wow. Why so angry? Nintendo dosen't need to "sit down and shut the f*** up" when emulators of their legacy consoles on another console interfere with Nintendos Virtual Console service.

Emulators are NOT ILLEGAL. Legal bullying is unfair, where you use your deep pockets to shut down law-abiding citizens. Tough shit for Nintendo, guess they won't be bullying Google.

 

[televator]

The Retrode.

http://www.retrode.org/

The plug-in adapters introduced on this page allow the Retrode to interface with other video game cartridges.

With the info on this page, it seems that you don't have to download almost anything anymore...

 

[Persona7]

I know very little about the Ouya .... but how would you put roms in it ?

Probably SD card or over the network.

 

[Shion]

I know very little about the Ouya .... but how would you put roms in it ?

 

[Kokonoe]

I'll get my screwdriver.

 

[BobbyColtrane]

I like my fair share of stuff no one else likes, so I'm always hesitant to piss on someone else's fun, but I just don't understand this console.

An inexpensive, small console with a proprietary controller that plays Android games and ROMs...why not just use a PC?

 

[TheNatural]

I like my fair share of stuff no one else likes, so I'm always hesitant to piss on someone else's fun, but I just don't understand this console.

An inexpensive, small console with a proprietary controller that plays Android games and ROMs...why not just use a PC?

Because it's $99 and not everyone has their PC next to their TV, or it's inconvenient for various reasons to set up a PC based media center?

 

[Asimov]

I like my fair share of stuff no one else likes, so I'm always hesitant to piss on someone else's fun, but I just don't understand this console.

An inexpensive, small console with a proprietary controller that plays Android games and ROMs...why not just use a PC?

Price... it is small... most people prefer gamepad instead of mouse + keyboard... and you can kook it up very easily to the TV.

Just buying a decent gamepad for PC is about half the price of a OUYA.

 

[BobbyColtrane]

Because it's $99 and not everyone has their PC next to their TV, or it's inconvenient for various reasons to set up a PC based media center?

I guess you're right - but don't most people who would be interested in this type of thing have either a pc or a laptop already? It just seems weird to me, is there a huge demand to play these types of games on your couch? Just play them on a computer, wherever that is.

Price... it is small... most people prefer gamepad instead of mouse + keyboard... and you can kook it up very easily to the TV.

Just buying a decent gamepad for PC is about half the price of a OUYA.

True but you can just use a 360/PS3 controller. How many gamers don't have one? Or the ability to go get one at Gamestop or something.

I hope Ouya succeeds but it seems weird and not very well thought-out. I guess I just don't "get it". If I see a cool game (or 5) I want to play on Ouya I'll buy it. Otherwise I'll continue to scratch my head at this thing.

 

[r3n4ud]

I like my fair share of stuff no one else likes, so I'm always hesitant to piss on someone else's fun, but I just don't understand this console.

An inexpensive, small console with a proprietary controller that plays Android games and ROMs...why not just use a PC?

Personally, I'm getting one for the kids. It'll free up my pc for me.

 

[TheNatural]

I guess you're right - but don't most people who would be interested in this type of thing have either a pc or a laptop already? It just seems weird to me, is there a huge demand to play these types of games on your couch? Just play them on a computer, wherever that is.



True but you can just use a 360/PS3 controller. How many gamers don't have one? Or the ability to go get one at Gamestop or something.

I hope Ouya succeeds but it seems weird and not very well thought-out. I guess I just don't "get it". If I see a cool game (or 5) I want to play on Ouya I'll buy it. Otherwise I'll continue to scratch my head at this thing.

You could say that for a lot of things. There's a market for both.

Official 360 controller are like $45 or $55 as well. I don't know the build quality of the official controller, but that's already half the cost right there.

Theoretically everything to tablets, from game consoles, to whatever can boil down to 'why not just do it on PC?' Doesn't mean it's pointless because it does the same things though.

 

[Cymbal Head]

AFAIK, dumping your own ROMs should be legal unless you circumvent copy protection (DMCA and all that) or distribute it to others.

If emulators were "perfectly legal," there would be emulators on PSN, XBL, and the App Store.

There's plenty of perfectly legal content that Apple doesn't allow on their store. They're the gatekeepers of the storefront, so they're entitled to decided what flies and what doesn't.

They don't have an obligation to approve all legal content for sale on the app store.

Oh wow, I'm late to this thread.

 

[Cymbal Head]

So where's the limit?

Can I make a pair of Jordan then and sell them for half the price?
Maybe cultural property should be "accessible" to everyone (including movies, music, books, games...) but no need to copy things.

You can't copyright a fashion design. So as long as you didn't use someone's trademark (i.e. Nike swoosh) in your copy...yes. Yes you could. Don't you ever wonder why there are knock-offs of every single popular fashion? I'm wearing imitation Chuck Taylors as I type this, and Converse can't do anything about it.

 

[Absinthe]

Wait......wait one second.....

For $99 I can have an NES, SNES, and N64 in a tiny little unit under/next to my TV?!



.....playing personal back ups.....uh...of course..

I'm pretty sure SuperGNES will be there day 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cyrQcl-Fsl4

 

[James Coote]

I sideloaded Muppen64 onto my OUYA. I had to play around with the OpenGL settings to get it to run at a decent framerate, but once I got everything set, it runs pretty smoothly. I think the guys making it have set the optimal settings for OUYA as the default.

Naturally I didn't illegally download any copyrighted roms, because I'm a law abiding citizen, but I think if you did say illegally download and play something like Super Mario 64, you wouldn't be disappointed

 

[Erasus]

I know very little about the Ouya .... but how would you put roms in it ?

"Get" the ROMs / IOSs on a PC and transfer via network

 

[Berg]

Better launch lineup than the Wii U confirmed.

if your counting emulators, shouldn't you count the BC and VC games on the wiiU?

 

[Portugeezer]

Last time I checked, Android games sell good on cell phones that also have NES emulators available.

If someone has a computer that was made after 2003, it can likely run an NES emulator at full speed, so I don't see the desire to completely ignore Android games in favor of NES games.

Cell phones have crap controls, with Ouya it will have actual controls, so it will be shitty android game vs a masterpiece like Super Metroid.

if your counting emulators, shouldn't you count the BC and VC games on the wiiU?

Obviously he should, but that's no fun is it?

 

[Satchel]

Aren't emulators legal?

Yep. I have a snes one on my Lumia 920.

 

[ramparter]

Basically, Ouya VC > Wii U VC

 

[acm2000]

ouya is just android, why wouldnt it have emulators at launch?

 

[Dictator93]

Yeah emulators are definitely legal. It's the roms that are hot issue.

Do we even have perfect emulators for NES and SNES? Since I know ZNES isn't perfect.

BSNES

 

[Willy Wanka]

Wouldn't OUYA be able to run Retroarch? I love that app so much.

 

[ElFly]

You can't tell me that emulators don't hurt sales of Virtual Console games for Nintendo.

SURELY there have been lots of people who forego spending $5 to play it on the Wii....when they could just conveniently download it for free and play it on their PC?

I consider the downloading of actively sold games (by the copyright holder) as PIRACY. Obviously, if a game hasn't been sold for many years (and the copyright holder doesn't profit any more from it), its "piracy" status is greatly diminished.

In that respect, old emulators are "vehicles to access piracy" along the same vein of modchips and custom firmware.
I don't think it's morally wrong for Nintendo to pursue legal action if they are being used in a way that directly hurts Nintendo's bottom line.

Do I WANT Nintendo to pursue legal action? Hell no. I respect the emulation community and applaud their efforts in terms of preservation and their tireless ingenuity in reverse-engineering. I think they're vitally important for the future of video games after companies have gone bankrupt, and the last thing I want is for Nintendo to shut them down.

On the other hand nintendo takes for fucking ever to release games on virtual console, even when they have all the licenses and copyrights available.

 

[Zero148]

Better launch lineup than the Wii U confirmed.

isn't the complete SNES and NES library a better launch lineup than any console that has launched in the past and will ever launch?

 

[acm2000]

You can't tell me that emulators don't hurt sales of Virtual Console games for Nintendo.

i would say nintendos pricing hurt the sales more, needed to be dirt cheap, or subscription all you can eat service, the games have very very little value now