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Pachter: Wii Owners Not Interested in 'Core' Titles from 3rd Parties

i disagree with him about both the wii and pc

shooters have sold really well on the wii in my opinion. red steel and call of duty: world war were really bad and they sold loads. the conduit likewise was eally bad + it came from a really crap developer and it still sold 150k in the usa (which is ridiculous)

i dont think i'd ever want to play an online fps on the wii but i do think there's a market for single player fps's. metroid prime proved that much. it's just a shame no publishers will ever capitalise on that. they'll just turn stuff into lightgun games instead

as for the pc it's still the best way to play fps's. and games like tf2/battlefield/counterstrike have proven that if you hit a nerve with the audience then you'll be richly rewarded. but once again developers dont have a fucking clue about the platform and this kind of misinformation doesn't help

michael pachter seems like a really cool guy but he spouts a lot of bullshit and he knows it
 
Just some thoughts on this casual/core - thing. :lol

1970s - 1994:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is awesome (not for Sega-fans)

1994 - 2003:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is kiddy

2004:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is still kiddy
- "PSP is going to outsell the NDS by 5 trillion units"
- "Nintendo is going 3rd Party"

2005:
- Sony-fans have to eat a lot of crows
- NDS becomes the super-seller
- Brain Age, Nintendogs & Co. are successful
- Iwata mentions the term "Non-Game" to describe Animal Crossing, which is also a great success
- So, let's bad-mouth this all!
-> NDS is only successful because of Non-Games
-> The only games that're doing well on the NDS are Non-Games
-> Everyone is going to to create only Non-Games now
-> Nintendo is going to create only Non-Games now
-> Non-Games are destroying the industry
-> Nintendo is destroying the industry

2006:
- "Shit, NDS is great, everything sells well, industry gets bigger and bigger"
- Wii gets released
-> Wii is only successful because of Non-Games
-> The only games that're doing well on the Wii are Non-Games
-> Everyone is going to create Non-Games now
-> Nintendo is going to create only Non-Games now
-> Non-Games are destroying the industry
-> Nintendo is destroying the industry

Irony fact: "Gamers always wanted a big industry in which everyone plays, now they're crying around"

2007:
- The term "Non-Game" gets replaced by the term "Casual-Game"
- Everyone uses the term "Core-Gamer" to describe themselves (or in 2006 already)
- Peak year of discussions/posting bullshit

2008:
- Like 2007

2009:
- Finally, people aren't talking that much about this topic and I hope this ends soon...
Click to expand...
 
Kintaro said:
It never end does it? It never fucking ends.
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Well, forget about Mass Effect 2. I can't wait to play some browser based games instead!

If there was some scientifically proven maximum level of being wrong, I think Pachter just reached it.
 
Captain Smoker said:
Just some thoughts on this casual/core - thing. :lol
Click to expand...
I know what you mean, but the term "casual game" has existed for much longer than you estimate. Casual games have been a fixture on the PC for many years by way of online game portals, Flash (formerly Java, etc.) games, publishers like PopCap, and so on.
 
KuwabaraTheMan said:
They were until the Wii version of Guitar Hero 3 became the best selling version. Then they became casual titles. Tiger Woods is also casual, while Madden is hardcore.

Call of Duty is in dangerous water after Wii owners started buying last year. It could be casual within a year.
Click to expand...

Now you understand.

And this is different from 360 and PS3 owners how exactly?

Point me to a successful game for any system this gen which wasn't either a big name franchise or the recipient of a huge marketing push.
Click to expand...

Every single Wii game is a risk though, publishers say so ALL THE TIME. I mean, with a 52M WW userbase, there's always a risk. Especially risky when every HD title makes a profit and all Wii games are a bomb. Look at MHTri, it's an unknown franchise, no advertising, no money put into it, no serious push for it because 3RD parties know only Nintendo games sell on Nintendo consoles! 1/2M in sales in one territory in less than a month...total bombage...Pachter is right, it's just over for Nintendo until WiiHD comes.

Just in case someone hasn't caught on, I'm being sarcastic in this thread.
 
Chris Remo said:
I know what you mean, but the term "casual game" has existed for much longer than you estimate. Casual games have been a fixture on the PC for many years by way of online game portals, publishers like PopCap, and so on.
Click to expand...

Not to mention that the term 'casual gamer' was used just as much last generation, it just was used to refer to people who played Halo, GTA and Madden, and not much else. Ironically, last generation Nintendo fans argued that the Xbox was only successful because of casual gamers. The times, they are a changing.
 
You can't use Conduit as the poster child for hardcore and write off the entire audience for the Wii.

One thing I always noticed was how unenthusiastic people were for the actual "playing Conduit" bit. People went nuts over the control scheme but talked about how they hoped it would come to other games. People pointed out things like specular highlights on enemy monsters, but never said anything good about the actual enemies. People liked that it was mature, but only in that they hoped it would bring other mature titles to the Wii.

When you look at the vids and see you're going to be running around generic levels killing hideous giant red insects as the MIB guy from the boxart it's just impossible to get enthused.
 
Chris Remo said:
I know what you mean, but the term "casual game" has existed for much longer than you estimate. Casual games have been a fixture on the PC for many years by way of online game portals, Flash (formerly Java, etc.) games, publishers like PopCap, and so on.
Click to expand...
Ok. :)

But it wasn't used in the home system/handheld industry though. :)
 
conduit wouldn't have sold on ps3 or 360 either. actually it would have sold worse because they have loads of good shooters

+ it would have cost 4 times as much to make. seems to me they got off easy
 
Pachter is worse than glenn beck and spinning a situation to suit his own purposes. Funny how conduit is singled out but doesn't mention other 3rd party titles of the same variety actually doing well with Wii owners getting hosed on support of them afterwards. Can we just admit 3rd parties aren't going to give a sony, sega, ms effort on nintendo systems ever the nes/snes days are over. Nah we can't admit to truth as that would leave no one to blame when crap ports or low budget titles fall flat in sales.
 
Pachter said:
Pachter: Good question, and I’m going to take some heat for my answer. The “core” Wii audience is a Mario/Zelda/Smash Bros./Metroid audience, not a Conduit audience. To the extent that the Wii is the only console that the core gamer owns, it’s likely because the only games he/she cares about are first party core titles. Most core Wii owners who care about shooter games other than Metroid already own an Xbox 360 (to play Halo or Gears), or own a PS3 (to play Resistance or Killzone). So when a game like The Conduit comes out on the Wii, these core gamers are making a comparison to Halo or Killzone, and are deciding accordingly. High Voltage did a decent job with The Conduit, especially given the graphic limitations of the Wii, but the game didn’t look and feel as good as games like Halo or Killzone, and if a gamer had both a Wii and either a PS3 or Xbox 360, it’s easy to see why they would pass on The Conduit in favor of a hard core game on one of the other platforms.
Click to expand...

Lol. Pachter forgot that there are quite a few people who own ONLY Wii (no PS3/X360), and therefore wouldn't compare Conduit with Halo or Killzone. I am part of those few people.
 
Pachter isn't saying that Wii gamers aren't going to buy core games, he's just saying that the portion of the Wii's userbase that consists of core gamers probably isn't going to buy a shit/medicore game in big numbers.

A good percentage of Wii core gamers own a 360 or PS3 and probably aren't going to spend their money on a medicore Wii game. The rest of the core gamer base are Nintendo fanboys and kids.

But a great core game will sell well on the console.
 
KuwabaraTheMan said:
Not to mention that the term 'casual gamer' was used just as much last generation, it just was used to refer to people who played Halo, GTA and Madden, and not much else. Ironically, last generation Nintendo fans argued that the Xbox was only successful because of casual gamers. The times, they are a changing.
Click to expand...
lol. xD

Anyway, everyone is just crying around since we use these words. I know that people like to burden about everything, but it's just so wrong and ironic too as you said. >_>
 
well, he made a rational argument.

the question to answer then is how many wii-only core (mature also) gamers are out there? that plus some gamers that prefer certain core experiences like shooters on the wii?
i say mature (rating ) because stuff like smash, zelda, kart, and galaxy can be considered core titles but can also appeal to a wider audience than a shooter.

my guess is probably around 2 million max. re4 and codwaw both sold over 1 million, plus some moderate niche successes like light gun games and no more heroes suggests that there is an audience, but the experience might need to be somewhat unique compared to other platforms in order to draw these gamers in. (core nintendo games fit this description, since you cant get those elsewhere)

btw i enjoyed conduit more than madworld, and i played conduit right after i finished hl2 ep2 on my pc. :P to each their own i guess.
 
thefro said:
Pachter isn't saying that Wii gamers aren't going to buy core games, he's just saying that the portion of the Wii's userbase that consists of core gamers probably isn't going to buy a shit/medicore game in big numbers.


But a great core game will sell well on the console.
Click to expand...

i agree here completely, yet some crappy titles still outsell HD counterparts.
good efforts like GH, Tiger will sell great. Decent efforts like SW force unleashed and CODWAW will sell pretty well.

thefro said:
A good percentage of Wii core gamers own a 360 or PS3 and probably aren't going to spend their money on a medicore Wii game. The rest of the core gamer base are Nintendo fanboys and kids.
Click to expand...

we need evidence here. it is the question i asked, but do we know actual percentages?

even if a great portion of the wii base was kids and new gamers, it is third parties' responsibility to reach out to them and sell their games. nintendo develops loyalty through consistent quality, but there is nothing intrinsic about first party titles that would immediately appeal more to a new gamer.
 
Chris Remo said:
I know what you mean, but the term "casual game" has existed for much longer than you estimate. Casual games have been a fixture on the PC for many years by way of online game portals, Flash (formerly Java, etc.) games, publishers like PopCap, and so on.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but casual (like harcore) definition changed over time. From an actual description of something: "I casually drink (any type of alcohol) with friends from time to time" to some kind of negative anti-Nintendo slur. It's almost like a slogan for those who don't understand the terminology or are unaccepting of changing the definition of what a gamer is, from the typical demographics of the past (which included the "casualz" of those days) to ALL demographics willing to give it a chance instead of equating it to only nerds, kids and manbabies (of which neither "harcore" or "enthusiest" could fully define either).
 
amtentori said:
well, he made a rational argument.

the question to answer then is how many wii-only core (mature also) gamers are out there? that plus some gamers that prefer certain core experiences like shooters on the wii?
i say mature (rating ) because stuff like smash, zelda, kart, and galaxy can be considered core titles but can also appeal to a wider audience than a shooter.

my guess is probably around 2 million max. re4 and codwaw both sold over 1 million, plus some moderate niche successes like light gun games and no more heroes suggests that there is an audience, but the experience might need to be somewhat unique compared to other platforms in order to draw these gamers in. (core nintendo games fit this description, since you cant get those elsewhere)

btw i enjoyed conduit more than madworld, and i played conduit right after i finished hl2 ep2 on my pc. :P to each their own i guess.
Click to expand...

The audience is there they just need the right titles. I find it sad that nintendo basically established fps as console selling titles yet developers can't seem to find their own magic since n64. You're right the experiences need to be unique but polish goes a long way when the other two platforms offer much better features it's no wonder why fps titles on Wii are looked down upon. Controls alone isn't going to make an audience quite comfortable with what they have consider Wii fps titles as a alternative experience.
 
Amir0x said:
True enough. Splitting hairs, I guess, but my point was just to say that SEGA doesn't necessarily agree with Pachter. And in that case, it doesn't matter what Pachter thinks Core Wii owners want.
Click to expand...

or maybe sega is just full of shit? i mean conduit is sucess with 150k sold while mh is not with 700k+ sold (and easily going well over 1 million while conduit is not going anywhere)...

Maybe problem is not Pachter but Sega's low self esteem?
 
Captain Smoker said:
1970s - 1994:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is awesome (not for Sega-fans)

1994 - 2003:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is kiddy

2004:
- The terms "Non-Game/Casual/Core" do not exist
- Nintendo is still kiddy
- "PSP is going to outsell the NDS by 5 trillion units"
- "Nintendo is going 3rd Party"

2005:
- Sony-fans have to eat a lot of crows
- NDS becomes the super-seller
- Brain Age, Nintendogs & Co. are successful
- Iwata mentions the term "Non-Game" to describe Animal Crossing, which is also a great success
- So, let's bad-mouth this all!
-> NDS is only successful because of Non-Games
-> The only games that're doing well on the NDS are Non-Games
-> Everyone is going to to create only Non-Games now
-> Nintendo is going to create only Non-Games now
-> Non-Games are destroying the industry
-> Nintendo is destroying the industry

2006:
- "Shit, NDS is great, everything sells well, industry gets bigger and bigger"
- Wii gets released
-> Wii is only successful because of Non-Games
-> The only games that're doing well on the Wii are Non-Games
-> Everyone is going to create Non-Games now
-> Nintendo is going to create only Non-Games now
-> Non-Games are destroying the industry
-> Nintendo is destroying the industry

Irony fact: "Gamers always wanted a big industry in which everyone plays, now they're crying around"

2007:
- The term "Non-Game" gets replaced by the term "Casual-Game"
- Everyone uses the term "Core-Gamer" to describe themselves (or in 2006 already)
- Peak year of discussions/posting bullshit

2008:
- Like 2007

2009:
- Finally, people aren't talking that much about this topic and I hope this ends soon...
Click to expand...

Gaffers: A History
 
Pachter:

I know that the flamers will say that PC gaming rules, but the numbers speak for themselves: console gaming will be an $18 billion market this year, and PC gaming will be under $3 billion.
Click to expand...

sometimes Pachter does rock :lol
 
elrechazao said:
So, I guess COD waw isn't a core title?
Click to expand...

Seriously, I love how Patcher says Wii owners are not interested in "core" titles by yet COD WaW Wii sold ~1m (or more by now) :lol

But I guess that could be easily qualified as not being as large as its HD counterparts

And by every metric we know that No More Heroes, HoTD Overkill, The Conduit (all core/niche titles) were profitable and "successful" to the companies that made them

Add to that his consistent comments about a HD Wii coming means the system will have no games I guess
 
milanbaros said:
I know. Halo and GTA were considered about as casual as a game got a few years ago. What the fuck happened round here?
Click to expand...

For fucking real.

It happens every generation or so. The next generation brings along with it new 'advancements' that allow for new ways to play video games, and the older, 'hardcore'(but formerly casual) players feel bitter towards the newer trends and feel more and more relegated to niche status until one day they wake up and realize that they've been forced to adapt in order to continue enjoying their hobby. It happened to my dad, it happened to me, and it'll happen to you.
 
I'm still waiting for an "AAA" third-party "mature" game with a big marketing push to see how much the Wii userbase cares about "core" games.

In the meantime I guess I'll just keep hearing about how Wii "core" games don't sell because some mediocre-good game with little to not marketing push sold just enough to be profitable.
 
Leondexter said:
I bought them both, and The Conduit wasn't the one that sucked.
Click to expand...
10f6c0m.gif
 
Draft said:
Of course the PC gaming market will be "worth" less than the console gaming market.

PC games are cheaper.

Duh.

More insightful commentary from Michael Pachter.
Click to expand...

And the console gaming market includes the hardware and accessories too, doesn't it? If you threw in the hardware and accessories of all PCs that play games the PC "gaming market" would be much larger.
 
spwolf said:
or maybe sega is just full of shit? i mean conduit is sucess with 150k sold while mh is not with 700k+ sold (and easily going well over 1 million while conduit is not going anywhere)...

Maybe problem is not Pachter but Sega's low self esteem?
Click to expand...

Can't they just BOTH be succesful in their own right? I happen to believe they both are doing good, MHTri is doing better 'cos it's a more established franchise, better prestige and had more money behind it while Conduit is doing well despite HVS being relatively low-level no-names before they got the hype this game gave them and the fact it does seem to have a fanbase of it's own.

Besides, what does it really matter how either sells on Wii, these developers & publishers ultimatly decide where these games go? Yeah sales can influence that, but so can ignorant fanboy-ness within their own companies (don't deny that people like Itagaki, Cliffy B. & Marky Mark Rein aren't erect for MS and likewise with Sony & Nintendo's own respective fanboys). Franchises get ported, move to different factions and get whored out multiplatform all the time...it's business yes, but some of the decisions just seem so one-sided it has to be fanboy's within the companies making them despite us.

We either need to keep coming back day after day and be fanboys ourselves or armchair CEO's or we can just be happy with what they give us and not piss'n'moan about sales or what we can't even change.
 
larvi said:
And the console gaming market includes the hardware and accessories too, doesn't it? If you threw in the hardware and accessories of all PCs that play games the PC "gaming market" would be much larger.
Click to expand...


just take a look at how many video cards are sold?
 
larvi said:
And the console gaming market includes the hardware and accessories too, doesn't it? If you threw in the hardware and accessories of all PCs that play games the PC "gaming market" would be much larger.
Click to expand...
Well, it also includes three successful platforms combined, which is sort of a hilarious comparison. It's even more ridiculous considering how few games come out on exactly all three console platforms but not PC, as if it were literally "these three things versus this one thing." No, each one is a distinct platform that must be developed for, and someone being a "console gamer" does not imply they own all three major consoles. For that matter, the three consoles share less in common architecturally than the Xbox 360 does with the PC.

It's just ridiculous all around.

Actually, a quick search suggests that that $18 billion figure is also meant to include all the portables and all their software. Can anyone confirm this? Because if so, Jesus Fucking Christ.
 
With regard to Sega calling The Conduit a success: In the same interview the guy mentions that mature games on the Wii are a small niche. What I take this to mean is that if you carefully plan out a title with a small budget, and small shipment you can make money serving the niche hardcore market on the Wii. This is similar to how Atlus or Nippon Ichi makes money with the niche, hardcore JRPG fans. When he says that Conduit was a success he doesn't mean the same thing at all as when Activision says that their hardcore shooter is a success. The folks at Sega are making a reasonable return on an investment whereas the boys at Infinity Ward are out shopping for their Ferraris. Success doesn't always mean the same thing.

Don't take this post to be some glowing endorsement of high budget, HD gaming, since as we saw this week with Grin, if you bet the farm on terrible high budget titles you're likely to go out of business quickly, but I think that 3rd party hardcore/core gaming on the Wii is a niche and sales expectations have to at that level. I'm not sure if I would go as far as Pachter's blanket statement that Wii owners aren't interested in core titles from 3rd parties, but I do think that the market for 3rd party core titles is small, niche and often difficult to reach.
 
DrGAKMAN said:
Can't they just BOTH be succesful in their own right?
Click to expand...

Two different games that cost two different amounts to make and that have two different levels of expectation. It's a simple concept that most people here can't understand.
 
TunaLover said:
People who pick The Conduit over MadWorld should be burned.
Click to expand...

Hey mang, I bought (bought) all three of their "core titles" at full price.
 
DrGAKMAN said:
Can't they just BOTH be succesful in their own right? I happen to believe they both are doing good.
Click to expand...

It doesnt matter what we believe - MH is not meeting expectations while Conduit is - or so says SEGA. That was my point. I happen to think that SEGA is full of shit, we are not talking about iphone game here.
 
Why is this guy such a figure in the gaming industry? He has shit views, laughable predictions, and vastly uneducated beliefs. I thought I had enough of him after I stopped watching "The Bonus Round".

EDIT - And no his idiocy extends far beyond his views on Nintendo.
 
He didn't say that Wii owners are not interested in core titles from third-parties. He said that Wii owners aren't interested in FPS titles from third-parties. He's using "core" and the FPS genre interchangeably.
 
Exclusive Metal Gear Solid / Resident Evil level franchise with lots of effort, budget and promotion put into it = Sell Well.

Exclusive mediocare 'non-name' offering - Sell not so well, but apparently pretty well by the standards laid out for it by Sega.

Rocket science, 'tis not.
 
spwolf said:
It doesnt matter what we believe - MH is not meeting expectations while Conduit is - or so says SEGA. That was my point. I happen to think that SEGA is full of shit, we are not talking about iphone game here.
Click to expand...
what in the holy mother of fuck!?
 
TheDrowningMan said:
Exclusive Metal Gear Solid / Resident Evil level franchise with lots of effort, budget and promotion put into it = Sell Well.

Exclusive mediocare 'non-name' offering - Sell not so well, but apparently pretty well by the standards laid out for it by Sega.

Rocket science, 'tis not.
Click to expand...

This isn't true. Monster Hunter Tri is a testament to this. It will only sell around a million copies in Japan at its current rate.
 
SuperSonic1305 said:
Uncharted
Click to expand...

i wouldnt go that far. uncharted sold well overtime despite its bad first month sure, but i wouldnt say it had no marketing push. the hype alone carried it.

just look at some stuff that has sold great on wii that would have not even been noticed on any other system.

carnival games, game party, deca sports, we ski, boom blox, de blob, no more heroes, etc.




the quality of the titles on the list varies greatly btw.
 
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