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[BeauRoger]

Im glad that somebody on the inside that is respectable is pointing these things out. Its always awkward to talk about these things publicly if you are from the west. I agree with him completely and have been debating these exact points for a few years now. I think that much of the islamic world is moving in the opposite direction of the western world, and if things dont change, sooner or later there will be a confrontation.

 

[Dude Abides]

I am not talking about his education credentials! Join Imran Khan or make a political party and physically do something to help the society instead of yammering this or that is wrong in the Pakistani society! Books and journals are good but doing that alone is not enough for country.

How about message board posts?

 

[Kinitari]

So far in the history of Pakistan...
All non corrupt/liberal/secular leaders have been assassinated (Liquat Ali Khan) or died to cancer (Muhmmad Ali Jinnah)
. The only leader that was not corrupt and is liberal, ie. Imran Khan has not been elected. Although his popularity is growing and needs to get more in roads in poor regions of Pakistan to win the election next time in 5 years!

2) Be proactive about it make non-profit schools in the poor regions in Pakistan. Educate people all over Pakistan about science.

Sounds like he'll do more good as a living orator than a dead politician.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Smh at the usual suspects turning this into a religion bashing thread again when it is about something completely different intent from the author and the interviewee

 

[Rubezh]

We might be in trouble,

Just look at that parrot's eyes. You know it's hiding something.

 

[Always-honest]

He's right.
So people will be offended.
And they'll probably want to kill him.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Pachter, is it you?

 

[Azih]

"Arab Muslims have to give their false but widespread belief that science in any way, contains elements of religion. Inshallah this mentality that makes God responsible for everything is the opposite of scientific thought"

Here he's saying that Arab Muslims have to give up the idea that God is responsible for things, and only then will they advance in science. Thus religion is retarding the society, which is not what you are suggesting.

He said both things. Now giving him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't being contradictory I would guess that he views the question of whether bad time leads to religon or vice versa is a different topic from whether trying to shoehorn religion into science class is a good thing for scientific progress or not. Which seems reasonable to me.

 

[Azih]

It dissuades the education of women.

More women graduate from university in Iran than men do with the split of students being 60% women, 40% men. You keep stumbling when you generalize spec.

 

[Maninthemirror]

More women graduate from university in Iran than men do with the split of students being 60% women, 40% men. You keep stumbling when you generalize spec.

Lol he has no idea. Even Pakistan and Bangladesh with all its issues were able to break that glass ceiling.

 

[Alucrid]

Lol he has no idea. Even Pakistan and Bangladesh with all its issues were able to break that glass ceiling.

Graduating from University is not breaking the glass ceiling. What does the gender makeup of executives within corporations located in Pakistan look like?

 

[Azih]

Lol he has no idea. Even Pakistan and Bangladesh with all its issues were able to break that glass ceiling.

It just makes it so hard to address the actual real issues with the spread of Saudi ideas when that's all people see on this board when they think of anything even vaguely Islamic.

I'm pretty sure Man is talking about women being elected to the heads of government Alucrid.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Im glad that somebody on the inside that is respectable is pointing these things out. Its always awkward to talk about these things publicly if you are from the west. I agree with him completely and have been debating these exact points for a few years now. I think that much of the islamic world is moving in the opposite direction of the western world, and if things dont change, sooner or later there will be a confrontation.

There doesn't need to be a confrontation. In my opinion the worst case scenario is that the middle east doesn't modernize in time before the west weans itself off oil and loses interest in the region. If that happens they'll remain stuck, with no resources to dig themselves out of the ditch.

 

[Azih]

And Zap, Imran Khan isn't known as 'Taliban Khan' for no reason.

 

[PhiloAmericana]

Our extreme christian leadership hasn't exactly been on a roll lately either.

You need to make quite a few distinctions. The United States and the West as a whole have become quite a bit more liberal. Conservatives in the United States are conservative within the liberal tradition. So, let's get this clear. The sort of conservative theocratic principles he's referring to are quite different and much more dangerous. The Muslim Brotherhood cannot at all be compared to the Republican party, nor is Christian theology similar to Islamic theology.

Christianity had Hellenic influences very early on, and has been in dialogue with these philosophical traditions. You really see this with Philo of Alexandria and his fusion of Greek philosophy with Judaism, as well as with the implementation of ideas stemming from the mystery cults. All of these ideas stem from philosophies and traditions which are very much consistent with reason and developing one's understanding through inquiry and study. Islam has had this influence. I would never contest the fact. However, the rationalists within the Islamic tradition were challenged, and the threat to open intellectual inquiry has been quite severe. Individuals like al-Ghazali rejected Western philosophy in favor of a radical form of occasionalism and mysticism. Orthodoxy became the ruling order of the day, and it has dominated the intellectual sphere of the Islamic world ever since.

 

[kobashi100]

Pretty much agree. The arab spring will have an effect though, it'll just take a good while for that to happen. Change really doesn't happen overnight.

I think one of the most important things for a successful society is to separate religion from state. Something most Islamist countries have failed to do. I think Turkey is a great example of one of the better states though.

good grief!!

I must have missed the decades of secular tyrants ruling with an iron fist then. Also secularism has really done wonders for the poor in Pakistan and Bangladesh right .

Decades of secular rule has achieved nothing!

anyone who has an any idea about the political system in Pakistan should be able to see it is very far from Islam.

 

[PhiloAmericana]

good grief!!

I must have missed the decades of secular tyrants ruling with an iron fist. Also secularism has really done wonders for the poor in Pakistan and Bangladesh right .

Decades of secular rule has achieved nothing!

anyone who has an any idea about the political system in Pakistan should be able to see it is very far from Islam.

Well, surely you understand that there are many forms of secular rule, right? You can have secular dictators, despots, and authoritarian regimes. No one contests this. The value of secularism is that it helps to prevent religious orthodoxy from dominating society. When used properly, it can allow for an intellectual and religious pluralism conducive to human goods and well-being.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

They don't have the money because reasons 1 and 2 (corruption of politicians and army). Also they could get investments from other places ie. Turkey...

Hmm, how is religion a problem for having too many children? Islam does not prohibit contraception. People's lack of education is the reason for too many children in that part of the world.




I am not talking about his education credentials! Join Imran Khan or make a political party and physically do something to help the society instead of yammering this or that is wrong in the Pakistani society! Books and journals are good but doing that alone is not enough for country.

All I am saying is that most folks of that era have become very bitter from what they have seen happened to Pakistan. Hence, his views.

Imran Khan is a religious nut. He chastised Ahmadis for cheap political points. I wouldn't support him either, I applaud him for that.

good grief!!

I must have missed the decades of secular tyrants ruling with an iron fist then. Also secularism has really done wonders for the poor in Pakistan and Bangladesh right .

Decades of secular rule has achieved nothing!

anyone who has an any idea about the political system in Pakistan should be able to see it is very far from Islam.

Explain to me the 3% literacy rate for women in the FATA.

 

[Air]

Interesting article. I think he makes a lot of valid points. I don't know how much to blame is on the religion, but I would assume there are larger forces at play for the substandard representation of that community.

 

[kobashi100]

Well, surely you understand that there are many forms of secular rule, right? You can have secular dictators, despots, and authoritarian regimes. No one contests this. The value of secularism is that it helps to prevent religious orthodoxy from dominating society. When used properly, it can allow for an intellectual and religious pluralism conducive to human goods and well-being.

yes but i was responding to this

I think one of the most important things for a successful society is to separate religion from state. Something most Islamist countries have failed to do. I think Turkey is a great example of one of the better states though.

the poster makes it sound like the Islamic world has been full of religious orthodoxy and that's why it has suffered.

Its a complete misconception. The islamic world has been full of secular tyrants and democracies for decades.

 

[PhiloAmericana]

yes but i was responding to this



the poster makes it sound like the Islamic world has been full of religious orthodoxy and that's why it has suffered.

Its a complete misconception. The islamic world has been full of secular tyrants and democracies for decades.

The region has suffered from two extreme polls in politics. They've suffered from autocrats on the one hand, and theocrats on the other. Islamic orthodoxy is a problem in the region. I don't think many would contest this fact. Many of the reasons that some of these dictators were supported was because they suppressed these fundamentalist elements.

What you want is to develop a culture in the region that is conducive to liberalism, to democracy, to individual rights, etc. However, that doesn't always mean that you can have democracy initially. Often, there has to be a softening of the culture first.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Journalist: Hasnain Kazim

Born in 1974 in Oldenburg, son of Indian-Pakistani immigrants. Preschool time in Stade and in Karachi, Pakistan, school in the Old Country and in Stade. Studied political science in Hamburg, career as a naval officer. Freelance among other things, the "Stader Tageblatt" and the German Press Agency dpa in South Asia Office in New Delhi, India. From 2000 internship at the "Heilbronner Stimme", then political editor there. From February 2006 to June 2009 for economic affairs editor of Spiegel Online. Since July 2009, South Asia correspondent based in Islamabad, Pakistan.

Jesus he's 39?! If you would have told me he was 28 I'd believe you.

 

[Gintamen]

Turkey is doing great!

Probably because Erdoğan has turned into something else over the last decade or so. (Or shown another fave.)

 

[Ashes]

These are good ideas but they just don't have the money. And since they have no money, the Saudis swoop in and get influence because they come in with free money that gets spent on setting up these schools.


The religion is a problem though. It encourages having too many children such that they remain mired in poverty. It discourages free inquiry into science. It denies evolution. It dissuades the education of women.

Your understanding of the religion is problematic. Such generalizations show up your shallow criticism.