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[Doth Togo]

:lol

It's that time again, friends, to talk about game piracy!

Last week, Pandora's Cube, a retail video game chain in White Marsh and College Park, Maryland, and Springfield, Virginia, were raided by the U.S. Department of Justice and U.S. Customs (otherwise known as the Dept. of Homeland Security after the Sept. 11, 2001 reorganization of federal agencies, including FBI, Customs, Treasury and others) for selling pirate game products.

"The raids on three Washington, D.C. area computer and video game stores that engaged in illegally modifying Microsoft Xbox and Sony PlayStation 2 consoles and pirating video game software were carried out December 1 through the joint participation of the United States Department of Justice’s Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section (“CCIPS”), the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Maryland, and the United States Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (“ICE”). The three stores are part of a retail chain named "Pandora's Cube," located in shopping centers in White Marsh and College Park, Maryland, and Springfield, Virginia.

During the raids, two Pandora’s Cube employees were arrested on charges of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement and conspiracy to traffic in a device that circumvents technological protections measures, a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). Enacted in 1998, the DMCA prohibits the manufacture and distribution of products or services that circumvent technological protection measures designed to prevent unauthorized access to and copying of copyrighted materials."

Please see http://www.theesa.com/12_8_2004.html for more information.

In short, the stores were selling modded consoles. I suspect the owners/operators/employees of the stores are gonna get jail time without parole in a federal penitentary, plus a fine, plus attorney fees. Sounds expensive and embarassing, doesn't it?

So, friends, the point of this thread is... Don't sell modded consoles unless you want to be a jailhouse bitch.

- - - - -

Shout outs to DJ Demon J, I Heart Sluts (now in the O.C.) and Lane_Myer.

 

[Wario64]

What about selling modchips seperately? Assuming they come flashed with a BIOS that isn't illegal

 

[Doth Togo]

All modchips are illegal, homebrew code or not. They're circumvention devices. Circumvention devices are bad.

Read the DMCA for more info.

 

[cja]

Arrested for selling modchips? Fascists!

IBM must be a bit pissed off imagining if these crap laws were in place twenty years ago. Hewlett Packard would have been busted, their employees imprisoned rather than celebrated as providing the first IBM PC clone. We'd all still be using IBM branded PCs, Microsoft would have been kicked out of the OS market or bought out and we'd currently have the PlayStation 2, GameCube and IBOX, freaky. This'd have made a great Sliders episode.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Good. Their prices were insane.

 

[Doth Togo]

Good. Their prices were insane.

:lol No doubt.

 

[Deku Tree]

So what exactly does the law say? I thought that when you bought an xbox, you own it and therefore you can do whatever you want to it. Modding your xbox is a crime?

 

[Alex Anderson]

It also says they sold pirated game software in addition to performing mods. So it wasn't just the modchips that got them busted.

 

[borghe]

the law on circumvention devices is not quite as clear cut as that. one only has to look at DeCSS to know that. This is why you can still buy modchips from huge online stores right here in America.

my guess is that it was in combination with the part in their about copying games as well..

Mod chips ARE circumvention devices, but DeCSS established the precident that circumvention devices for bypassing a copyright security mechanism for copyrighted material that you own in and of themselves are NOT illegal.

Ask DVD Jon... three times now he has circumvented security and gotten away cleanly with it? (DVD, iTunes, and something else)

 

[Nerevar]

So what exactly does the law say? I thought that when you bought an xbox, you own it and therefore you can do whatever you want to it. Modding your xbox is a crime?

Yes, it is. You are not legally allowed to use any measure to circumvent a copyright protection scheme. The xbox's BIOS is a copyright protection scheme in that it only allows the user to boot digitally "signed" code. The modchip is basically a means of getting around this, thus, it is illegal in the DMCA. That's how fucked up things in this country have become. Corporate America is running the government and eroding basic consumer rights, and nobody seems to care.

Mod chips ARE circumvention devices, but DeCSS established the precident that circumvention devices for bypassing a copyright security mechanism for copyrighted material that you own in and of itself is NOT illegal.

DeCSS is illegal in the US. That's why, by and large, no legal commercial DVD software players exist for Linux. (actually, there might be 1, but it uses proprietary binaries). And Borghe - the trial of DVD Jon was in Norway. That has no bearing on US law at all.

 

[impirius]

So what exactly does the law say? I thought that when you bought an xbox, you own it and therefore you can do whatever you want to it.

No, no, you're thinking about common sense... we're talking about the law here, which is completely different.

The DMCA is the shittiest piece of shit Congress ever shat.

 

[borghe]

Yes, it is. You are not legally allowed to use any measure to circumvent a copyright protection scheme. The xbox's BIOS is a copyright protection scheme in that it only allows the user to boot digitally "signed" code. The modchip is basically a means of getting around this, thus, it is illegal in the DMCA. That's how fucked up things in this country have become. Corporate America is running the government and eroding basic consumer rights, and nobody seems to care.

read above. this is not true. DVDJon proved that with DeCSS.

Security circumvention will hold up in court of you own the material you are trying to circumvent security on.

the problem here was the pirated games.

 

[DarienA]

Good. Their prices were insane.

Isn't that the truth whenever I've though of buying stuff from them a phone call to them to check their prices always quickly changed my mind....

 

[Nerevar]

read above. this is not true. DVDJon proved that with DeCSS.

Security circumvention will hold up in court of you own the material you are trying to circumvent security on.

the problem here was the pirated games.

As I said, DeCSS is illegal in the US. The lawsuit that generated so much controversy was whether or not it was illegal to link to another website that offered DeCSS.

You're thinking of the trial in Norway? That has no bearing on the legality of the software in the United States.

 

[segasonic]

 

[MegaByte]

DVDJon does not live in the US.

 

[borghe]

You're thinking of the trial in Norway? That has no bearing on the legality of the software in the United States.

You really don't think so? Then why have DVD Copying programs been so proliferant when their entire basis is on DeCSS? Why have mod chips continued to flourish (this example not included).

You are wrong. The ONLY mod chips to ever be shut down were ones that included actual code from the PS2 or XBox BIOS. The only DVD Copying software to ever be shut down was commercially distributed software that was advertised as "making perfect or near perfect copies".

I am not arguing as to whether it is illegal based on word for word interpretation of the DMCA. I am simply saying that precident has been set around the world and in many cases right here in America. Circumvention devices are will only get you busted if there is direct and immediate proof they are being used to explicitly violate copyrights.

You can argue against this statement all you want but the truth is that any other case has been thrown out when not directly tied to piracy.

 

[lexi]

It's too bad the US doesn't have something like this:

 

[cvkpaladin]

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/pandorascube/ds-system.html

Their prices are pretty insane. $299.99 for a GB DS.

 

[Nerevar]

You really don't think so? Then why have DVD Copying programs been so proliferant when their entire basis is on DeCSS? Why have mod chips continued to flourish (this example not included).

Which DVD copying programs? DVD X-Copy? CloneDVD? None of these programs legally allow you to copy copy-protected DVDs. You have to make use of currently illegal software, such as AnyDVD or DVD Shrink. Why do you think these companies are not based in the us?

You are wrong. The ONLY mod chips to ever be shut down were ones that included actual code from the PS2 or XBox BIOS. The only DVD Copying software to ever be shut down was commercially distributed software that was advertised as "making perfect or near perfect copies".

No, the only DVD copying software to be shut down was a company headquartered in the US. Most other software that intentionally circumvents the DMCA is from software companies based outside the US and, therefore, not subject to US law.

I am not arguing as to whether it is illegal based on word for word interpretation of the DMCA. I am simply saying that precident has been set around the world and in many cases right here in America. Circumvention devices are will only get you busted if there is direct and immediate proof they are being used to explicitly violate copyrights.

Once again, domestic US law is not affected by international rulings. And show me 1 case where a lawsuit against a modchip manufacturer or distributor based in the US has been "thrown out". Because I've yet to hear of such a case. There's a reason these companies exist outside of the US and distribute through companies that are also based outside the US. Hell, the largest of these (lik-sang) have even had their shipments refused by US customs due to their distribution of these chips.

You can argue against this statement all you want but the truth is that any other case has been thrown out when not directly tied to piracy.

Once again, I'd like to know what case you are referring to. Because I certainly haven't seen it.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

In response to segasonic's "Heil! AMERICA" picture/post:

I'd just like to point out that the DMCA was enacted under Clinton, not Bush. Just to be fair, I mean.

 

[Doth Togo]

:lol @ the wannabe experts.

 

[Baron Aloha]

I live right down the street from their White Marsh store. I visit the store whenever I'm in the mall to play imports and then I leave. I'll have to check it out to see what's going on there now.

 

[Ulairi]

Yes because even though they are stealing and breaking the law, we shouldn't do anything!

You're a fucking waste of space. End your life now so there is more air for the rest of us.

 

[fennec fox]

IB Bish posts Canada flag image

 

[lexi]

Why is simply modifying a console so reprehensible to people? What if you want to import?

I suppose people celebrating this were cheering Hollywood on when they wanted to ban VCRs.

 

[Ulairi]

Why is simply modifying a console so reprehensible to people? What if you want to import?

I suppose people celebrating this were cheering Hollywood on when they wanted to ban VCRs.

Pirating games is stealing. Stealing is wrong. Don't fucking steal.

 

[Doth Togo]

Pirating games is stealing. Stealing is wrong. Don't fucking steal.

Mod chips, HD Loaders, etc are also wrong.

 

[lexi]

Pirating games is stealing. Stealing is wrong. Don't fucking steal.

They were charged for modifying. The fact that they may have been selling pirated games isn't even mentioned in the article, it simply states they were charged with some bullshit anti-reverse engineering law. That is wrong.

 

[DarienA]

Pirating games is stealing. Stealing is wrong. Don't fucking steal.

And everyone who mods there system does it to steal... none of them do it to play legit import titles.

You sir are much smarter than me... I bow to you.

 

[Deku Tree]

EDIT: nevermind...

 

[Ulairi]

They were charged for modifying. The fact that they may have been selling pirated games isn't even mentioned in the article, it simply states they were charged with some bullshit anti-reverse engineering law. That is wrong.

The raids on three Washington, D.C. area computer and video game stores that engaged in illegally modifying Microsoft Xbox and Sony PlayStation 2 consoles and pirating video game software were carried out December 1 through the joint participation of the United States Department of Justice’s Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section (“CCIPS”), the United States Attorney’s Office for the District of Maryland, and the United States Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (“ICE”). The three stores are part of a retail chain named "Pandora's Cube," located in shopping centers in White Marsh and College Park, Maryland, and Springfield, Virginia.

Says right there that they're stealing.

 

[lexi]

Says right there that they're stealing.

Why weren't they charged with theft, then?

 

[impirius]

During the raids, two Pandora’s Cube employees were arrested on charges of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement and conspiracy to traffic in a device that circumvents technological protections measures, a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

Yep, it says right there, s-t-e-a-l-i-n-g. Can't you people read?

If they were selling counterfiet games or loading games on people's systems after modding them, then just bust them for copyright infringement outright.

 

[lexi]

Yep, it says right there, s-t-e-a-l-i-n-g. Can't you people read?

If they were selling counterfiet games or loading games on people's systems after modding them, then just bust them for copyright infringement outright.

Exactly, you'll find that 'conspiracy' is a loaded word when it comes to the American justice system. America's 'War on Drugs' has eroded hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, on that 'conspiracy' bullshit.

FREEDOM AWAITS, BROTHERS TO THE SOUTH:

 

[Doth Togo]

Exactly, you'll find that 'conspiracy' is a loaded word when it comes to the American justice system. America's 'War on Drugs' has eroded hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, on that 'conspiracy' bullshit.

FREEDOM AWAITS, BROTHERS TO THE SOUTH:

Uhh, Canada was part of this investigation. They helped ICE. The things that aren't reported....ahh....

You'll see more of them in the near future.

/flex

 

[explodet]

Dept. of Homeland Security?

I just had this horrible image of terrorists modding consoles.

 

[Doth Togo]

Dept. of Homeland Security?

I just had this horrible image of terrorists modding consoles.

If you only knew...

 

[shuri]

Pandora's Cube, Wright said, sold $500 "Super Xbox" consoles, modified versions of Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT.O: Quote, Profile, Research) Xbox video game console, that had been modified to hold larger hard drives and play pirated games.

The modified consoles, some holding 15 or more games already copied to the hard drive, were on open display in the stores.

"They were burning games onto the hard drive and equipping the hard drive with copying software so that the average consumer could just go ahead and copy the software themselves," she said.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuo...tfh79544_2004-12-08_19-12-29_n08100947_newsml

 

[M3wThr33]

The DMCA is a pile of shitty shit, so therefore anything it makes illegal is not illegal to me.

 

[Doth Togo]

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuo...tfh79544_2004-12-08_19-12-29_n08100947_newsml

:lol

Breaking news....first! Gaming Age Forums!

 

[Doth Togo]

The DMCA is a pile of shitty shit, so therefore anything it makes illegal is not illegal to me.

Heh, don't get caught.

 

[Nerevar]

:lol @ the wannabe experts.

Ok, Togo, since this is basically an industry you work in .. would you mind clarifying for us? It's blindingly obvious that piracy is illegal, but modchips and other assorted media is very much in a grey area. And I'm not talking about non-enforcement (which happens with a lot of this). I just want to know, according to the letter of the law, what is illegal and what isn't?

 

[borghe]

the letter of the law is worthless because it is there for the judicial system (judges and juries) to interpret. So the real question is, where do all of these legal grey areas stand in practice.

I am not disagreeing that according to the letter of the law modchips are illegal. But the entire point of DMCA was to protect copyrights in the digital age, and this whole circumvention thing is retarded.

"Hmm.. I'm circumventing copyright protection security, but not breaking any copyrigh........... POLICE!! OPEN THE DOOR!!!!"

 

[Doth Togo]

Ok, Togo, since this is basically an industry you work in .. would you mind clarifying for us? It's blindingly obvious that piracy is illegal, but modchips and other assorted media is very much in a grey area. And I'm not talking about non-enforcement (which happens with a lot of this). I just want to know, according to the letter of the law, what is illegal and what isn't?

Mod chips, HD Loader, PS-X-Change, HD swaps, key gens, crack files, backup copies for sale or any form of distribution... All are illegal and punishable under US law and under the Berne Convention (Berne does not cover circumvention devices), which covers international jurisdictions (Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, Australia). You may not have seen the Berne Convention enforced much yet, aside from federal criminal enforcement actions outside the US, but you soon will....

DJ Demon J says: The manufacture, sale, distribution of any form circumvention devices is illegal under the DMCA--regardless if said modchip is designed to pirate games or not--even region modchips are illegal under DMCA as they break into the manufacturer's designed access-control schemes (i.e. US PS2's only play US games).

(DJDJ is currently banned from GAF for his "love" of Nintendo.)

 

[Arcticfox]

Cracking down on a company selling modded consoles with precopied games is fine with me, but if they ever try to take my modded PS2 with HDLoader they are in for a fight. Playing my legally owned games (including imports) with next to no load times has made me fall in love with my PS2 all over again.

I am not nearly naive enough to think everyone uses these tools the same way I do, but making them illegal is one of the stupidest thing the US has ever done. I don't see anyone trying to ban knives since they could (and often are) used in illegal acts.

 

[borghe]

which is shit when a lot of that stuff has nothing to do with protecting copyrights....

"You put a bigger hard drive in your xbox. JAIL TIME!"

at least we know DMCA will fall after the revolution (and I ain't talking Nintendo).

 

[Doth Togo]

which is shit when a lot of that stuff has nothing to do with protecting copyrights....

"You put a bigger hard drive in your xbox. JAIL TIME!"

at least we know DMCA will fall after the revolution (and I ain't talking Nintendo).

Borghe, stop arguing morality. Your resistance is futile. Like it or not, it's the law of the land. Congress balanced out the measure between copyright interests and technology interests. If you think DMCA is bad now, you should shudder to think about what copyright interests would have liked. PurePwnage.

In other words, the law is not perfect, but the circumvention elements have been upheld consistently. The only parts of DMCA under contention are the notice-and-takedown provisions and subpoena provisions (see: P2P users). Those areas are the only areas that the ...as you may put it... "evil copyright barons" have suffered losses.

This message has been sponsored by DJ Demon J.

 

[borghe]

so how is preventing PS2 users from importing games protecting copyrights? last time I checked territorial distribution control had only one reasoning behind them: profits.

How is preventing XBox users from running XBMC protecting copyrights? Oh yeah, it allows for some MS license to release a less featured media center and make money off of it...

Modchips, HDloaders, region free mods.... it is like banning the sales of VCRs because they can be used to copy tapes... I got an idea, how about cracking down on the PIRATES, the torrent sites, IRC channels, etc... the places that are actually BREAKING decades old copyright laws....

I am not taking the moral high ground.. I am using a very real example. I have bought 4 games for my XBox over two years. I have come across one copied game just to see the nude hack (gee, which game could that be). So how in two years and with only four games has my xbox seen hundreds of hours of use? Oh yeah.. XBMP and XBMC... Used to watch foreign TV shows covered under fair use... What do I use my region free DVD player for? Oh yeah, to watch DVDs from other territories because companies suck too much to not release them over here.

So here I am, not actually violating single fucking copyright, yet I could go to jail under the letter of the law.

It isn't the moral high ground, it's real life.

Believe it or not, I DON'T want to see the DMCA completely done away with. I don't want companies' copyrights potentially stomped all over. I am just saying as the law is written there are legitimate and COMMON reasons that someone might unknowingly (or knowingly) break the law even though they aren't and have no intention of breaking the copyrights that are trying to be protected BY said law.

 

[manji]

...is entering an all-region code on my $70 DVD player bought at Best Buy illegal?
(legit question, I'm interested in how they'd treat bypassing a region lock)