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PC Gamer's GOTY is.......Spelunky

Mushroomer25 said:
In all of those runs, I never felt like the situation for success presented itself more than.. 10 or so times. Each of those 10 runs ending with failure on my part. But every other one seemed impossible - either the incorrect shop would spawn every time (I even got to a Black Market that lacked a single shotgun for sale.), or I'd only see it in 2-1 - lacking the necessary cash.

For as many "arbitrary" walls as Rogue Legacy claims to toss up, it never puts such luck-based walls behind content progression.
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Once you learn how to kill shopkeepers, getting a shotgun is trivial.
 
Bleep said:
I have been playing Spelunky since the original freeware version was released in 2008. The Steam version is the best revision so far, the daily has reignited my love of the game along with a whole crew of my friends who still compete every day to get the highest score. It is my personal favourite game released this "generation" along with Dark Souls.

I have always felt it's a massive shame this game never seemed to get the sales or appreciation that it deserves. It's especially disappointing to me when far weaker games like Rogue Legacy get far more sales and attention than Spelunky because it is easier to pick up and feel like you are succeeding at due to the permanence that game has, regardless of it's large faults and poorly thought out progression system. A lot of these rogue-like inspired action games probably wouldn't exist if they weren't inspired by the freeware release of Spelunky back in 2008, but it was ignored in the mainstream media and in a lot of forums because it was a freeware game.

It's great to see this game get some of the attention it deserves, but it still frustrates me that people don't understand why this game is so brilliant and worth playing for years.
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Dont worry there's plenty of appreciation at twitch.tv, where Spelunky is a very watched and very streamed game on there.

It's how I found out about it and fell in love with it.
 
mnz said:
I think only the original game was made with Game Maker, not this one. The original has unofficial Mac ports.
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Hmm, you could be right about that since there were console ports. It's true that the freeware version has a Mac port, but lacks the daily challenges and leaderboards, among other things, of the Steam/console version.
 
Ugh I fucking hate Spelunky, even though my friends and most of Gaf seem to love it. It's a stupid and repetitive trial and error game, satisfaction is infrequent and fleeting, and it is just one of those annoying games like Dwarf Fortress that elitist gamers always refer to as a "real game" in some argument.
 
Mushroomer25 said:
I think it ultimately comes down to what you want as a player out of a roguelike. Personally, the feeling of "mastering" a set of core mechanics & learning the secret tricks doesn't motivate me as much as just enjoying the beat-to-beat combat & platforming. In my opinion, Rogue Legacy is a more enjoyable game than Spelunky. The movement feels better, the combat feels sharper, and I don't find myself getting immediately overwhelmed & losing everything (as I often do in Spelunky). Spelunky certainly has more to offer as you dig into the core systems - but IMO, that results in just as much "grinding" as one would experience to upgrade in Rogue Legacy. The difference is that you're only gaining knowledge, rather than making character progression. I spent at least 10 hours in Spelunky trying to get a shotgun into the exit of 2-4, and by the time I gave up I didn't feel like I was doing any better than when I had started. I was at the total mercy of random level generation. Comparatively in Rogue Legacy, I'd hit stretched where I flatlined in exploring the castle - but at least at the end, I had gained some levels.
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Rogue Legacy is a strange game that tries to empower the player while punishing those who do well right away, that is my core complaint with the game. If the EXP system somehow let you spend what you had earned while you play, I would have less of a problem with it, but it would of course completely unravel the games illusion of balance and progression with the weakness of the games skill tree and content coming forward. The game is trying to emphasize the genealogy mechanic, but I really feel this has forced them to come up with inherently flawed systems to try and make this the focus. Only rewarding the player after they die is where I find this problematic, this feels artificial to me. Rogue Legacy is approaching permanent progression in a "permanent" death setting the wrong way in my opinion and the core game design is flawed when looked at closely. It is fun to mess around in, but that is not enough to keep me playing a game. A game needs real gameplay depth for me to give it any recognition, and that's where Rogue Legacy falls apart.

Rogue Legacy does control well, but it includes multiple movement options I personally don't like in platformers. I much prefer games without multiple air jumps, as I like the idea of having to control your jump well without the chance to just hit jump again to wildly change the direction of movement, for example in Mario 64 I find it thrilling controlling a character with a specific weight that you have to manage the momentum of without easy ways to change direction in the air. This is entirely personal preference though, so it's not something I would argue as being better in Spelunky than Rogue Legacy, just different. Spelunky feels very precise to me, just like Rogue Legacy, and I feel like the controls let me do exactly what I want to.
 
atomsk said:
Once you learn how to kill shopkeepers, getting a shotgun is trivial.
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Yeah. Just now I booted the game, started from the jungle and got a shotgun on my second try (I didn't get any shopkeepers on my first try D:). I got one from one of those fortune wheel shops. I made it explode from above to startle the shopkeeper, then jumped on his head, stole the shotgun and ran away towards the exit door...
 
I love watching videos of Chris Remo, Tom Francis, or Giant Bomb playing it. I just wish I had the time, but can definitely see why it's worthy.
 
Bleep said:
Rogue Legacy is a strange game that tries to empower the player while punishing those who do well right away, that is my core complaint with the game. If the EXP system somehow let you spend what you had earned while you play, I would have less of a problem with it, but it would of course completely unravel the games illusion of balance and progression with the weakness of the games skill tree and content coming forward. The game is trying to emphasize the genealogy mechanic, but I really feel this has forced them to come up with inherently flawed systems to try and make this the focus. Only rewarding the player after they die is where I find this problematic, this feels artificial to me. Rogue Legacy is approaching permanent progression in a "permanent" death setting the wrong way in my opinion and the core game design is flawed when looked at closely. It is fun to mess around in, but that is not enough to keep me playing a game. A game needs real gameplay depth for me to give it any recognition, and that's where Rogue Legacy falls apart.

Rogue Legacy does control well, but it includes multiple movement options I personally don't like in platformers. I much prefer games without multiple air jumps, as I like the idea of having to control your jump well without the chance to just hit jump again to wildly change the direction of movement, for example in Mario 64 I find it thrilling controlling a character with a specific weight that you have to manage the momentum of without easy ways to change direction in the air. This is entirely personal preference though, so it's not something I would argue as being better in Spelunky than Rogue Legacy, just different. Spelunky feels very precise to me, just like Rogue Legacy, and I feel like the controls let me do exactly what I want to.
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Rogue Legacy seems to be a roguelike designed for people like me, who have problems with the core idea of a roguelike - that every round is a clean slate, and progression solely exists through advancement of skill. But this often results in games that require you to constantly repeat the exact same section of a game - and if you're not immediately in love with how that game's core mechanics are employed... repetition isn't going to improve things. I kept putting in time with Spelunky hoping that everything would "click" for me, but it just never did.

So Rogue Legacy strips out that annoying bit. Your character changes between rounds, and you're given the freedom to spec that character in whatever direction you feel is most appropriate. You're still learning & improving your execution of skills within the castle, but the repetition isn't as obvious. Unlike Spelunky, every round in Rogue Legacy is unique. You're prime to stumble upon just the right combination of genetic traits, upgrades, and castle layout that allows you to prosper. It changes enough to stay interesting, while being built on a foundation prone for mastery.

But maybe it's something more simple. The platforming and combat in Rogue Legacy felt stronger & more rewarding to me, than those present in Spelunky.
 
CHC said:
Ugh I fucking hate Spelunky, even though my friends and most of Gaf seem to love it. It's a stupid and repetitive trial and error game, satisfaction is infrequent and fleeting, and it is just one of those annoying games like Dwarf Fortress that elitist gamers always refer to as a "real game" in some argument.
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Spelunky is a game about learning systems and how they interact with one another. Everything in the game plays by a static ruleset, with the exception of the initial generation and the wheel of fortune (I guess the shopkeepers are somewhat random too but only cause they move faster than you can process), but other than that, everything is predictable and not random chance. Once you familiarize yourself with how everything works and interacts with everything else, it stops being a game about trial and error and becomes one about situational analysis and risk assessment. You become aware of what your character can and cannot do and can calculate every encounter in your head so then it comes down to how well you execute on what you set out to do in your head. The ghost is there to stop the player from spending too long deciding what to do, although I guess you could just pause the game but where's the fun in that.

Spelunky is most certainly my game of the year and one of my favourite games of all time. If you think the game is terrible, give some more concrete reasons because I think the people who praise the game have more articulate arguments for why it's great than those who say it's bad. On the other side, maybe I've played too much of this game and have become obsessive over depth that isn't there, like that Bubsy 3D guy.
 
i keep meaning to get back to spelunky but i don't think the mechanics are a good fit for me. i played for maybe 3-4 hours and didn't feel like i was improving at all.
 
Mushroomer25 said:
If a game is going to make me grind for hours on end to make progress, I'd prefer for that progress to be in some form tangible.
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Take a piece of paper and everytime you learn something new in Spelunky add +1 to a number (the number doesn't really matter, because its arbitrary). There, you have leveled up and it is as tangible as it gets, because it is on paper!

Feel free to use this for any game based entirely on the player getting better at playing the game (and not the character being played arbitrarily getting stronger).
 
MTMBStudios said:
Take a piece of paper and everytime you learn something new in Spelunky add +1 to a number (the number doesn't really matter, because its arbitrary). There, you have leveled up and it is as tangible as it gets, because it is on paper!

Feel free to use this for any game based entirely on the player getting better at playing the game (and not the character being played arbitrarily getting stronger).
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Damn

If only Ultimate Doom and Final Doom had EXP numbers I could fully appreciate them.
 
I've given the game several attempts over the course of the year, but could never get into it (XBLA version). I kept finding that my mistakes didn't build from things I learned in the prior run, lending most of my deaths a strong trial and error flavor. I'm sure if I kept it up that would abate, but the abruptness of death and the totality of the reset kept me from coming back.
 
Mushroomer25 said:
I think it ultimately comes down to what you want as a player out of a roguelike. Personally, the feeling of "mastering" a set of core mechanics & learning the secret tricks doesn't motivate me as much as just enjoying the beat-to-beat combat & platforming. In my opinion, Rogue Legacy is a more enjoyable game than Spelunky. The movement feels better, the combat feels sharper, and I don't find myself getting immediately overwhelmed & losing everything (as I often do in Spelunky). Spelunky certainly has more to offer as you dig into the core systems - but IMO, that results in just as much "grinding" as one would experience to upgrade in Rogue Legacy. The difference is that you're only gaining knowledge, rather than making character progression. I spent at least 10 hours in Spelunky trying to get a shotgun into the exit of 2-4, and by the time I gave up I didn't feel like I was doing any better than when I had started. I was at the total mercy of random level generation. Comparatively in Rogue Legacy, I'd hit stretched where I flatlined in exploring the castle - but at least at the end, I had gained some levels.
Click to expand...
Mushroomer25 said:
In all of those runs, I never felt like the situation for success presented itself more than.. 10 or so times. Each of those 10 runs ending with failure on my part. But every other one seemed impossible - either the incorrect shop would spawn every time (I even got to a Black Market that lacked a single shotgun for sale.), or I'd only see it in 2-1 - lacking the necessary cash.

For as many "arbitrary" walls as Rogue Legacy claims to toss up, it never puts such luck-based walls behind content progression.
Click to expand...
First off: getting that shotgun to unlock the shortcut isn't even mandatory to progress through the game overall. The only reason why anyone should consider using a shortcut is to explore a new world to familiarize oneself with the next wave of possible dangers as preparation for a legitimate run. Outside of this scenario, you're only hindering yourself by trying to manoeuvre around too many self-imposed handicaps (lack of beneficial items, extra health, actual monetary wealth etc.) and thus making the game even harder than it really is. Spelunky doesn't flat-out tell you this, but it should be obvious considering the worlds get progressively more difficult as with any game. There's no achievement for all the shortcuts either, so you rushing as you are without taking the time to observe Spelunky's intricaties is putting you in an ugly predicament. If you are overwhelmed, odds are you're not treading the environments appropriately.

Furthermore, luck is rarely a deciding factor in Spelunky. Yes, it has elements that are tied to its RNG-system to make each playthrough unique in different ways - not entirely sure why you'd say this game isn't like that but that's besides the point - that could slap you in the face so to speak and some shops may or may not have a good assortiment of goods, but that does not mean that the upcoming challenges are insurmountable if the shopkeeper did not provide you any top tier items for long periods of time. I have died with a jetpack and many bombs. I have finished the game without Climbing Gloves or the Cape. I reached the end with a constant shortage of bombs and ropes. Shopkeepers killed me in one run, whilst I removed them out of the equation in every level on the next. Even within the context of these examples, my own ability was the catalyst for victory or defeat and not stumbling upon a forgiving or a generous seed. Realistically speaking it's nearly always within the realm of possibility to reach one of two endings if you hone Spelunky's mechanics to varying degrees of mastery and 99% of the time you only have yourself to blame for a death; advancing all the way to the end requires in-game knowledge (+ correctly assessing any dangerous situation with your decision-making), managing your resources and then bringing it home with your own reflexes / dexterity. Spelunky is carefully balanced to be that way with consistent and indiscriminate rules on top of walking a fine line of being fast-paced yet deliberate; something the most recent version has nailed with its years of additional finetuning after the original template.

I'll give you the combat feeling more meaty in Rogue Legacy as that is one of its main focus points, but calling the platforming better than Spelunky's would be an inaccurate way of comparing the two since Spelunky's fundamental platforming is a lot more polished and tighter overall (with some hidden nuances) in its controls out of necessity. Which is to be expected, as the stakes are a lot higher if you wish to succeed. Rogue Legacy on the other hand does provide more flexibility to its movement on a regular basis with its airdashes, double jumps and so forth as part of the upgrade system, but ultimately it boils down to a matter of "different strokes" as I found Rogue Legacy to be shallow and nowhere near as satisfying for many of the same reasons that others in this thread have already discussed.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I've given the game several attempts over the course of the year, but could never get into it (XBLA version). I kept finding that my mistakes didn't build from things I learned in the prior run, lending most of my deaths a strong trial and error flavor. I'm sure if I kept it up that would abate, but the abruptness of death and the totality of the reset kept me from coming back.
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There is quite a bit to get used to but that's because the designs can vary quite a bit, especially the first few worlds, it does make for great replayability though.

Although it can feel like progress gets crushed, every second you are in spelunky your brain is adapting to the surroundings. Every run helps and each is a different but similar adventure.

I feel like people should be encouraged to go back to the game because there's a hell of a lot of game there to enjoy once you break past the initial difficulty. I know the cave isn't exactly a pleasure aesthetically either, but it's all about those satisfying decisions and the skills required to pull of what you did to get to the end so stick with it if you can, enjoy the tunes, unlock some characters, try the daily challenges and if you can, definitely play in co-op.

-actually I'm not sure if all of those features are in the XBLA version, but it's worth watching youtube videos of good players like Bananasaurus Rex to see how it's possible to play the game, great for inspiration.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I've given the game several attempts over the course of the year, but could never get into it (XBLA version). I kept finding that my mistakes didn't build from things I learned in the prior run, lending most of my deaths a strong trial and error flavor. I'm sure if I kept it up that would abate, but the abruptness of death and the totality of the reset kept me from coming back.
Click to expand...

Spelunky is very demanding, but I could tell I was getting better at the game even through failure. The thing about the game is you can never get good enough at the game to be careless and still succeed.

But man, when I finally "beat" the game it was so, so rewarding.
 
Not a single console exclusive. Pathetic GOTY list. Feels like they didn't play some of the best games of the year or include them just because they were on consoles.
 
Bleep said:
Rogue Legacy artificially roadblocks players to bring in a skill tree system that rewards players for playing well only after they fail. The sense of accomplishment is non-existent to me as I will come up against bosses who have artificially high health and damage numbers to try and encourage you to die, spend your gold and make yourself stronger. It is possible to beat these bosses at a low level, but it is an absolute slog and punishes players for doing well on a single life. Everything about the progression system in this game feels like a mistake to me, especially when there are more "correct" ways to spend your money. The game needs failure to clearly progress in the game and does not have any interesting scoring or competitive mechanics to keep me interested in the game. It is probably most disappointing game to me I played this year. I very much dislike this game, and it is one of the only cases where I will get frustrated at reading that people enjoy this game more than the game that inspired this whole indie roguelike inspired game movement because I feel it is so poorly designed.

Spelunky rewards you only for player skill and has a permanent death systems like what you would find in Rogue, Nethack, Dungeon Crawl, etc. The sense of accomplishment in this game is immense, you know that the only reason you are overcoming these challenges is because of what you have learned and how you have grown as a player. There is no unnecessary EXP system, just a smart balance of gold and items that you will evaluate picking up along the way to help you progress in your one chance to play. Eventually you will learn to rob shopkeepers, find secret areas and use ghosts to increase your score. On top of this you are competing with friends and those online in a well balanced game, encouraging you to play better and continue to play. There is so much depth to this game, so many ways to approach the challenges you face and it feels like it is fair and balanced the entire time you play. It is by far one of my favourite games in recent memory, and deserves the praise it gets from certain people.
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RL is a Metroidvania-Roguelike, so it's expected that it doesn't lean on Rogue element fundamentals 100%.
 
JaseC said:
Not a single console exclusive. Pathetic GOTY list. Feels like they didn't play some of the best games of the year or include them just because they were on consoles.
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hhhehehe.jpg
 
Well deserved, in my opinion. Sure the game came out on XBLA in 2012 but when it was released on PC last year, I still manage to put in 124 hours and counting. Daily Challenges breathe new life into an already replayable game.
 
CHC said:
Ugh I fucking hate Spelunky, even though my friends and most of Gaf seem to love it. It's a stupid and repetitive trial and error game, satisfaction is infrequent and fleeting, and it is just one of those annoying games like Dwarf Fortress that elitist gamers always refer to as a "real game" in some argument.
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We've got 364 more days to go, but folks, I don't think you'll find a more shit post on NeoGAF in all of 2014.

There is nothing - nothing - about Spelunky that is trial and error. It's different every time. How can you trial that? As was said by Chris Remo on Idle Thumbs, Spelunky can be boiled down to two words: situational awareness. That's the core of Spelunky and really that's the essence of video games. From avoiding ghosts in Pac-Man to timing Mario's jumps to the split-second mental chess of the deepest fighting games to minding the 360-degree environment of a multiplayer shooter ... it's all about situational awareness when it comes to gameplay. Everything is fair and everything has it's place in Spelunky. It's a simple concept with deep execution. It's the most basic of genres (platformer) combined with a modern twist (randomization) that we're going to see more and more of in the next 5-10 years. And it's just fucking fun, man.

None of this is hyperbole. The game's just fantastic. One of the games of the generation, no doubt.
 
oh god... what a terrible choice. I personally could not get into this game. Its some fun but GOTY? There are much more deserving games.
 
CHC said:
Ugh I fucking hate Spelunky, even though my friends and most of Gaf seem to love it. It's a stupid and repetitive trial and error game, satisfaction is infrequent and fleeting, and it is just one of those annoying games like Dwarf Fortress that elitist gamers always refer to as a "real game" in some argument.
Click to expand...

. . . maybe you should stop making errors and it wont be a trial

if you seriously think this game is only respected by an enclave of "elitists" then your argument on Spelunky and your distaste of the game is a weak argument, and shouldn't be respected as a viable argument
 
Spelunky was real fun. I enjoyed it for about ten hours myself. I don't know if I'd call it GOTY quality stuff but hey, to each their own!
 
I watched the Solo Eggplant Run that was linked here last week (sorry, I forgot which thread) and it gave me a new appreciation of the game. I can't wait to spend more time with the game.

I've spent a bunch of time with Rogue Legacy and while I appreciate the tight controls and old-school Castlevania callbacks, the leveling and upgrade mechanics that block progressions are just too much of a treadmill.
 
It's an interesting little game. But GOTY material? C'mon...

GhaleonEB said:
I've given the game several attempts over the course of the year, but could never get into it (XBLA version). I kept finding that my mistakes didn't build from things I learned in the prior run, lending most of my deaths a strong trial and error flavor. I'm sure if I kept it up that would abate, but the abruptness of death and the totality of the reset kept me from coming back.
Click to expand...

My issue as well. Rogue Legacy was better.
 
Spelunky HD is a great game. That's all I'll say about it. GOTY? Eh, whatever. I can't even remember what other PC games came out in 2013.
 
I feel like if you don't think Spelunky is GOTY material...then you don't really understand Spelunky yet and it's worth it to keep going if you're not a noob at tougher games, or desperately need more hand-holding and cutscenes etc. I know it sounds annoying, but it's true, you're wrong :P

If you can reach the end of the jungle a few times without too much of a problem, I'll be happy.
 
snoopeasystreet said:
Spelunky is a game about learning systems and how they interact with one another. Everything in the game plays by a static ruleset, with the exception of the initial generation and the wheel of fortune (I guess the shopkeepers are somewhat random too but only cause they move faster than you can process), but other than that, everything is predictable and not random chance. Once you familiarize yourself with how everything works and interacts with everything else, it stops being a game about trial and error and becomes one about situational analysis and risk assessment. You become aware of what your character can and cannot do and can calculate every encounter in your head so then it comes down to how well you execute on what you set out to do in your head.
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying, but I feel like you could say the exact same thing about 90% of video games.
 
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