Support NeoGAF

[FieryBalrog]

I really don't think SE cared enough about WoW for that to be a huge factor in the decision.

Rather, the fact that FFXIV's launch coincides with the end of SE's second quarter, and that the launch sales were critical to salvaging a dismal quarter, strikes me as suspiciously important. Even with the launch sales they fell very short of hitting targets.

 

[Nose Master]

I hope whoever rushed this gets shitcanned. This isn't some single player, movie licensed shit you can shove out the door with its pants half on. It's a numbered Final Fantasy, which by definition, is held in a stupid high regard by everyone. Did they honestly think that people wouldn't notice the game plays like it's a year too early?

Maybe they were just getting proper funding for it. A certain audience would buy the thing even if it was a flash video of a can of baked beans for three hours. (Paying a monthly fee for it, no less.) And the rest will come along when it's fixed.

Spoiler

Not sure if that was worth further poo-pooing the franchise weight, though.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Outside of FF12 I have not seen anything impressive from SE in many years. They are not even one of the best Asian developers anymore. They've been riding on the Final Fantasy/DQ train for far too long, and now they have grown dumb. They can't make action games either. They can't publish high quality titles. They are just riding on their name.

I think Namco Bandai is a better company now, and Namco has been some dissapointing shit for a long time now.

 

[Kyoufu]

Outside of FF12 I have not seen anything impressive from SE in many years. They are not even one of the best Asian developers anymore. They've been riding on the Final Fantasy/DQ train for far too long, and now they have grown dumb. They can't make action games either. They can't publish high quality titles. They are just riding on their name.

I think Namco Bandai is a better company now, and Namco has been some dissapointing shit for a long time now.

S-E at least publishes their games outside of Japan...

 

[StealthGoblin]

Then that's on their back, they should have never expected to be able to generate reasonable revenues from a console MMO in the west.

Oh absolutely. Their expectations, planning and management of this project has been ridiculous.

 

[wolfmat]

S-E at least publishes their games outside of Japan...

How is that a good thing if the games are dick?

 

[leehom]

Loved the shit out of FF11, very disappointed with FF14. Seems like every game I look forward to this gen from S-E turns out to be a disappointment.

 

[Londa]

I love this interview. It explains why there is copy and paste and why things went the way they did. But those points will always get ignored here on gaf and only the WoWfanlike questions get bolded at every opportunity.

The game is fun, haters will hate. Anyone that is enjoying the game isn't waiting for interviews to explain anything. They know the fixes will come thanks to the lodestone.

The interviewer pretends to know the process of making a game. But he compares a game that has graphics worse than gamecube games with a Next gen game like FFXIV. Then asks why there is copy and paste. :lol

"We have another picture of them laughing, but it seemed inappropriate." (this is in the comments section, I never followed this site. But this statement right here will keep me from ever following it if this is really true.)

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

When was the last good Final Fantasy game?

12

 

[xelios]

Then asks why there is copy and paste. :lol

Because it's going on PS3.

Unfortunately, apart from the towns, all the environments I've wandered across have had no variation whatsoever. It's all pretty, but boring. Reminds me of Dark Cloud 2 procedurally generated environments. =/

Having fun so far though. The only thing I would really complain about is how clunky and inefficient the UI is.

 

[wolfmat]

The interviewer pretends to know the process of making a game. But he compares a game that has graphics worse than gamecube games with a Next gen game like FFXIV. Then asks why there is copy and paste. :lol

It's obvious that you want to re-use assets because that's how it works. Thats not what they're referring to. I'm sure you know that though.

 

[Londa]

Because it's going on PS3.

Unfortunately, apart from the towns, all the environments I've wandered across have had no variation whatsoever. It's all pretty, but boring. Reminds me of Dark Cloud 2 procedurally generated environments. =/

Having fun so far though. The only thing I would really complain about is how clunky and inefficient the UI is.

I know why there are copied parts in the game. The interviewer seems to pretend to know how games are made, but still doesn't understand why they used copied elements in the game. Then compare a game that has dated graphics even after the graphical update to a game that most people can't play on their PC.

It's obvious that you want to re-use assets because that's how it works. Thats not what they're referring to. I'm sure you know that though.

They dev saids if they didn't copy and paste it would be unplayable and there would been no seamless areas. But he stills follows up with, If WoW can do it, why can't you? When their system is very dated and can not be compared with a Nextgen system.

 

[Painraze]

Never change Londa... :lol

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I know why there are copied parts in the game. The interviewer seems to pretend to know how games are made, but still doesn't understand why they used copied elements in the game. Then compare a game that has dated graphics even after the graphical update to a game that most people can't play on their PC.

You're neglecting the dozens upon dozens of open world "next gen" games that don't have any problem doing it, let alone WoW.

 

[danmaku]

Every time I look at my shelf that limited edition FFXIV box stares at me and tells me "you are an idiot".

 

[wolfmat]

They dev saids if they didn't copy and paste it would be unplayable and there would been no seamless areas. But he stills follows up with, If WoW can do it, why can't you? When their system is very dated and can not be compared with a Nextgen system.

There are good systemical solutions for the problem of repetitive environmental level design.

Even on the most basic level, there's scaling, rotation, tinting, elevating via terrain heightmap, referencing expected designs like tunnels or paths and breaking them up with landmarks and so on.
On a more sophisticated level, you break your assets up into sub-elements and arrange with that, even automated, if you have to. To make that approach easier, there's good middleware out there, also.

The difference being that you either copy whole chunks of arrangement, or you don't; that with the same footprint.

What I'm getting at is that it's less an issue of system resources, more one of time for interesting level design throughout.

And really, WoW _is_ a good reference _because_ Blizzard managed to deal with few assets while achieving a sense of uniqueness at most densely designed spots.

 

[funkmastergeneral]

I love this interview. It explains why there is copy and paste and why things went the way they did. But those points will always get ignored here on gaf and only the WoWfanlike questions get bolded at every opportunity.

The game is fun, haters will hate. Anyone that is enjoying the game isn't waiting for interviews to explain anything. They know the fixes will come thanks to the lodestone.

The interviewer pretends to know the process of making a game. But he compares a game that has graphics worse than gamecube games with a Next gen game like FFXIV. Then asks why there is copy and paste. :lol

"We have another picture of them laughing, but it seemed inappropriate." (this is in the comments section, I never followed this site. But this statement right here will keep me from ever following it if this is really true.)

I would assume a "next gen" game should have less copy and paste.

 

[Londa]

There are good systemical solutions for the problem of repetitive environmental level design.

Even on the most basic level, there's scaling, rotation, tinting, elevating via terrain heightmap, referencing expected designs like tunnels or paths and breaking them up with landmarks and so on.
On a more sophisticated level, you break your assets up into sub-elements and arrange with that, even automated, if you have to. To make that approach easier, there's good middleware out there, also.

The difference being that you either copy whole chunks of arrangement, or you don't; that with the same footprint.

What I'm getting at is that it's less an issue of system resources, more one of time for interesting level design throughout.

And really, WoW _is_ a good reference _because_ Blizzard managed to deal with few assets while achieving a sense of uniqueness at most densely designed spots.

I disagree. Its like comparing a scribble with a realistic painting. Why did that person scribble more people faster than you can paint one person?

I would assume a "next gen" game should have less copy and paste.

Sure if you know nothing about how Nextgen games are made that will be assumed.

PC Gamer: If WoW could do it then, why isn’t it doable now?

Hiromichi Tanaka: One of the reasons why is because of the quality of the graphics – it’s different from WoW. What we’re trying to do in each part is costing more memory. Basically that’s the difference. WoW was designed a few years ago, before FFXI. FFXIV is designed with the latest graphical technology; that’s why it costs that much of memory data.

We have one map divided into different parts, and then we use those parts. Otherwise, the data size is going to be terabytes. So, from the memory size point of view, it’s important to compile the data size. That being said, because we wanted the game to be seamless

 

[Mael]

Outside of FF12 I have not seen anything impressive from SE in many years. They are not even one of the best Asian developers anymore. They've been riding on the Final Fantasy/DQ train for far too long, and now they have grown dumb. They can't make action games either. They can't publish high quality titles. They are just riding on their name.

I think Namco Bandai is a better company now, and Namco has been some dissapointing shit for a long time now.

Maybe if you had an handheld you would have some good stuff from SE to play...
Seriously if you don't have one you only have DQ Swords as far as Dragon Quest game this gen :lol

 

[Kyoufu]

Londa at it again. Delicious.

 

[webrunner]

tl;dr version:

PC Gamer: "Why do you suck so bad?"
Devs: "We're sorry, we'll make it up to you! :-( "

More like
PC Gamer: "Why do you suck so bad?"
Devs: "It was hard!"


Edit: Regarding the copy paste discussion, it's basically the same reason they gave for every mistake:

They had something they wanted to do
They couldn't do it that way due to technical or timing issues
They tried anyway because fuck all yall
They failed and tried to use the above "fuck all yall" as an excuse.

If you can't get a huge expansive environment with lots of detail without making it repetitive, then you shouldn't make a huge expansive environment. You should make it smaller or make it less detailed.

They failed to make a good looking game because they went for a technical level which sacrificed the artistic level. You can't sacrifice the visuals of a game to itself, that's just insanity.

 

[funkmastergeneral]

I disagree. Its like comparing a scribble with a realistic painting. Why did that person scribble more people faster than you can paint one person?



Sure if you know nothing about how Nextgen games are made that will be assumed.

It just seems to me that a balance should exist between how good the graphics are and how diverse the scenery and textures are.

 

[-NeoTB1-]

Flop of the year confirmed?

 

[EviLore]

I disagree. Its like comparing a scribble with a realistic painting.

I know FFXIV's a terrible game, Londa, but calling its graphics a scribble to WoW's realistic painting might be unnecessarily harsh. Making games is hard!

 

[Unknown Soldier]

More like
PC Gamer: "Why do you suck so bad?"
Devs: "It was hard!"

Actually, it's something like:
PC Gamer: "Why do you suck so bad?"
Devs: "PS3 Limitations!!"

 

[Londa]

I know FFXIV's a terrible game, Londa, but calling its graphics a scribble to WoW's realistic painting might be unnecessarily harsh. Making games is hard!

yep that is very much what I said. Cute.

 

[wolfmat]

I disagree. Its like comparing a scribble with a realistic painting. Why did that person scribble more people faster than you can paint one person?

Bizarrely, that's what S-E haven't done in the environmental department. They made hi-res assets with environment maps and whatnot, yeah. And that is pretty neat. But they didn't really prioritize level design as much as they could have. I'm surprised you don't agree when you, as it seems, have played the game quite a bit.

Level design, environmental design isn't necessarily about upping the texture resolution (although it sure helps to some degree). You are pretty much forced to use some jedi waves (as described above) to accomplish the illusion of uniqueness. That surely gets harder the more detailed your artwork is because with detail, the level of abstraction lessens and the asset becomes more recognizable, so WoW has an edge there. But that is not what's being talked about here.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I can't believe they want to start charging us for this in just a few days. :lol

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm surprised you don't agree when you, as it seems, have played the game quite a bit.

Let's be quite clear on this point. Londa has actually barely played the game at all. All of us who have invested a significant amount of time in the game, and you can find us all in the OT now tucked away in The New and Improved Online forum, agree that Londa doesn't know a single thing she is talking about regarding FFXIV as she has essentially not actually played it.

 

[Painraze]

Let's be quite clear on this point. Londa has actually barely played the game at all. All of us who have invested a significant amount of time in the game, and you can find us all in the OT now tucked away in The New and Improved Online forum, agree that Londa doesn't know a single thing she is talking about regarding FFXIV as she has essentially not actually played it.

Are you serious? wtf

 

[Narag]

Let's be quite clear on this point. Londa has actually barely played the game at all. All of us who have invested a significant amount of time in the game, and you can find us all in the OT now tucked away in The New and Improved Online forum, agree that Londa doesn't know a single thing she is talking about regarding FFXIV as she has essentially not actually played it.

And here I thought the claims about Londa were just exaggerated. Amazing if true. and appropriately tagged to boot.

 

[Londa]

Let's be quite clear on this point. Londa has actually barely played the game at all. All of us who have invested a significant amount of time in the game, and you can find us all in the OT now tucked away in The New and Improved Online forum, agree that Londa doesn't know a single thing she is talking about regarding FFXIV as she has essentially not actually played it.

you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Check my character on lodestone (which I have invited everyone in that thread to do): Lolo Landerlu. You must lie so much that you begin to believe its the truth. :lol

And here I thought the claims about Londa were just exaggerated. Amazing if true. and appropriately tagged to boot.

If anyone needs a tag its Unknown.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

And yet he still makes better games than they do.

Truth.

Tactics Ogre Remake is the greatest thing they've released this generation.

 

[wolfmat]

Yo guys have fun with your personal feud, bailing out.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Yet another sign of the quality that has been diminishing for years. Square used to be all class. Now outside of their handheld efforts, they have been a big letdown. They sure to make the games pretty though :/

Yo guys have fun with your personal feud, bailing out.

Can't handle the heat? Stay out the kitchen

 

[DaBuddaDa]

It's clear the stresses of HD development is too much for the old-school Square guys to handle, yet they keep handing them high-level projects because of their seniority. Back during the SNES and PSX eras, it didn't take the same kind of office coordination, high-level programming skill and asset creation to make something like FF6 or FF7 as it does to make modern, HD games. These old guys are in way over their heads and need to be disposed of or put to work on small, handheld games.

They're like an aging sports star trying to compete against the youngest, fastest athletes in the game and getting steamrolled. They used to be great but time has passed and the game has left them behind.

 

[Mister Zimbu]

Yo guys have fun with your personal feud, bailing out.

Do NOT leave this thread. I can promise you it will only get more bizarre from here.

 

[Painraze]

why don't they just make an MMO that looks like FF6? I'd buy that.

 

[Regulus Tera]

When was the last good Final Fantasy game?

Dissidia, with its retarded plot and overdrawn melodrama, was pretty fun.

 

[Effect]

Square does bolder things with their flagship series than most other companies I can think of.

FFXII and FFXIII both reinvented the wheel while still being "Final Fantasy" at their core.

Still it's so hard to believe that the company that made FFXIII is the same one that made FFXIV. FFXIII has its issues I'll agree but not as bad as I thought since I started playing. I'm enjoying it more then I thought but still not as much as some of the older ones. I might actually finish this one while I didn't 12. However FFXIV outside of looking pretty (even that is questionable at times) is utter garbage by comparison. I've never really regretted buying a MMORPG in the years I've been playing them. Some I don't go back to after a while but many I've gone back to a few times. I'll get bored after a while but I've never really regretted purchases, even Warhammer Online I didn't regret buying. Hell I don't regret buying FFXI even though grouping was so frustrating. FFXIV is the first MMORPG where I truly wish I could have my money back, that has honestly pissed me off and makes me angry at times.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I love this interview. It explains why there is copy and paste and why things went the way they did. But those points will always get ignored here on gaf and only the WoWfanlike questions get bolded at every opportunity.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

They are bullshit reasons.

 

[mclem]

I disagree. Its like comparing a scribble with a realistic painting. Why did that person scribble more people faster than you can paint one person?

I'd rather enjoy a Calvin & Hobbes anthology than the Mona Lisa.

 

[mclem]

you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Check my character on lodestone (which I have invited everyone in that thread to do): Lolo Landerlu. You must lie so much that you begin to believe its the truth. :lol

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo?

 

[Londa]

Spoilers:

Spoiler

They are bullshit reasons.

If you are speaking from knowledge of developing games hands on that are Nextgen. Then I'll believe you.

Because I'm having a hard time believing that.

I'd rather enjoy a Calvin & Hobbes anthology than the Mona Lisa.

Tons of people who enjoy quality art may feel different, it also takes more skill, time, and effort to create the latter.

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo?

:lol

 

[GraveRobberX]

Saw the copy/paste terrain videos, I'm in disbelief

For someone joining the FFXIV party, it must be jarring visually to look @ the same rotation of said placements of terrain over and over

In FFXI maps had assets reused, but they were done nicely, and it didn't feel like deja vu of hey I know this place, I've seen it before

I can close my eyes and I can picture running from Bastok all the way to Sandoria and know all the visuals ques of how to get there

How can you not learn from FFXI?

I don't get this, a lot of these game companies nowadays are really killing their franchise(s), case in point:

Resistance 1, patched, upgraded, balanced; Resistance 2, everything learned from R1 thrown out the window

KillZone 2, patched, upgraded, balanced; KillZone 3, everything learned from KZ2 thrown out the window

FFXI, patched, upgraded, balanced; FFXIV everything learned from FFXI thrown out the window

Someone on another forum joked that FFXI was really a subscription based BETA, and all the knowledge learned from this BETA would be thrown into FFXIV or "Rapture" and it would be the true FF MMO, how I wish now, the joke would come true

I'm really on the fence for FFXIV, was a day 1 purchase on PS3, now I'm on the wait and see approach

 

[wolfmat]

Let's be frank: How can they sit there and talk like that when there's games like, Iunno, Guild Wars 2 coming up? It is a mystery.

I mean, there are worlds of awesome between these two games. And you really can only come to the conclusion that one game's got it, the other hasn't.

At some point, it's okay to say "well, the game's not really good, we made basic stuff weird, let's revise our process and vision from the ground up" etc.

Sure, it sucks that they can't patch that level of awesomeness in just like that, 3 months after release. Realizing that, you can really only take the apologies and move on.

That is, unless you're into that kind of thing. Seems as if some people are! Hooray for you.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I'm really on the fence for FFXIV, was a day 1 purchase on PS3, now I'm on the wait and see approach

I was too, now I'm honestly not in the buy with this one. There are many more important and better games coming in that time frame.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

you clearly don't know what you are talking about. Check my character on lodestone (which I have invited everyone in that thread to do): Lolo Landerlu. You must lie so much that you begin to believe its the truth. :lol

If anyone needs a tag its Unknown.

You're right, I need a tag. How about:

Unknown Soldier
Exposer of Bullshitters

Anyways, here's you:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2326447
Your highest battle rank is 16. You haven't the slightest goddamned idea what it's like to level up a battle class in this game. Your bullshitting about how anybody can solo to the level cap in this game was so stupid that everyone called you out on it in the OT. You haven't even started to play this game, someone can reach rank 16 in any non-mage battle class in roughly 7-10 hours.

As a point of comparison, here's me:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1987213

This is Rentahamster:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1555795

These are our biggest LS crafters:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2451826 (Ishtori Reni)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1560928 (Ryoshin Tarugane)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1537906 (Dega Enemis)

A few other LS people who have played pretty damn hard since release:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2451931 (Chie Izanami)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=3406780 (Hipstah Deuxbag)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1303345 (Meep Moop)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=5077006 (Treitei Firnas)
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1556851 (Dental Plan)

You want to ask anyone who actually knows what it's like to rank up any class in this game past 16-18 (lol), ask some of these people. You don't even have to ask me, I'm "only" a rank 37 archer and everyone knows the huntards in these kinds of games don't know anything about anything, amirite? :lol

I'm calling you out right now, right here Londa. You don't have the slightest fucking goddamned clue what it's like to play this game for any extended period of time. Ask armorer rank 37 Ryoshin Tarugane what it's like to grind out crafting at a high rank in this game. Ask marauder rank 45 Meep Moop what it's like to grind out battling at a high rank in this game. Hell, ask Rentahamster just about anything, I think that guy has walked around and explored every nook and cranny in the game world already. Ask him about the empty placeholder NPC towns, the ridiculous lag in the main towns, the doors to the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah that don't fucking open to let you in, the retarded SP gain (ranking up) mechanics, the broken party mechanics, the copy-pasta whole regions, the ungodly UI, the lag, oh god the lag, I could go on and on. None of these people who have actually played this game for any real length of time share your sunny outlook on this game in it's current state, and it's because we've actually played the hell out of it the last 2 months.

The ball is in your court, Londa. Your turn. :lol

 

[Regulus Tera]

If you are speaking from knowledge of developing games hands on that are Nextgen. Then I'll believe you.

Because I'm having a hard time believing that.

Ah, so we're playing that game.

EDIT: What the fuck Soldier. :lol

 

[demosthenes]

Where's the auction house? Who the hell came up with the market ward idea?

I just wanted FFXI with better graphics. Can't they even do that?

This....is what I wanted