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Penny Arcade reopens the "dickwolves" controversy

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darkpower

Banned
From http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-hern/2013/09/penny-arcade-reopens-dickwolves-controversy (I corrected a few spelling errors the guy had in the article, though)

Penny Arcade reopens the "dickwolves" controversy
Mike Krahulik: "I think that pulling the dickwolves merchandise was a mistake".
BY ALEX HERN PUBLISHED 03 SEPTEMBER 2013 13:06


965474677_7ettf-l.jpg

"The Sixth Slave" comic. Image: Penny Arcade

Penny Arcade, the gaming webcomic which has expanded into a multinational brand covering everything from journalism to conventions, yesterday plunged itself back into controversy by re-opening a wound from long ago.

In 2010, the "Sixth Slave" comic ran on the site, with a pretty blunt gag about being "raped to sleep by the dickwolves". That sparked a small amount of protest, if nothing else showing that 2010 was, in some ways, a surprisingly different time to 2013. Penny Arcade's response was another comic, a blog post and comments making many of the same arguments that still occur in disputes over rape jokes today: that rape jokes are no different from bestiality jokes, that no-one rapes because of a joke, and that it's just comedy anyway.

As is the nature of massively-distributed online arguments, the whole thing spiraled out of any one person's control. It's now far too big to summarize, but if you're interested in what went down from then on, a comprehensive – if obviously subjective – timeline has been compiled.

But perhaps the most questionable response of Penny Arcade themselves was to start selling "Team Dickwolves" t-shirts. Even taking the pair's defense, that there's no problem because the comic features "an imaginary person… raped imaginary by a mythological creature whose every limb was an erect phallus", at face value, selling merchandise putting that creature front and center was a needlessly provocative move.

A month and a half later (this now six months after the original strip), the merchandise was pulled from the store. That wasn't the end of the matter, not by a long shot. In fact, search traffic for "dickwolves" peaked a month later as Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins, the artist and writer of the comic respectively, continued to defend their initial reaction. The discussion bubbled on for months, but as a mark of contrition it was important. The issue eventually faded away rather than coming to any natural ending, until yesterday, when it returned with a vengeance.

Yesterday, during the closing stages of PAX, Penny Arcade's convention in Seattle, Krahulik told a panel that he thought "that pulling the dickwolves merchandise was a mistake," to cheers from the audience. Robert Khoo, the company's President of Business Development, who was acting as chair for the discussion and had been behind the decision to stop selling in the first place, agreed, saying that doing so was "a way of engaging", which they now try not to do "in these type of things".

For many gamers, the dickwolves debate three years ago was the first time they had been introduced to a number of concepts, from the ideas of triggering material and rape culture. Some reacted defensively, as people being exposed to these ideas still do today; but others examined the opposition and saw where it was coming from.

Today, that excuse is not available. These ideas have been mainstreamed to the extent that Krahulik and Holkins cannot get away with pretending that it's only a vocal minority who see problems with using rape as a punchline which don't extend to problems with using murder in the same way. But the last three years have not seen the pair toning down the rhetoric. From Holkins writing about the "censorship" of criticizing a game's exaggerated female characters to Krahulik being dismissive of trans people (leading to a $20,000 donation to the Trevor project), there have been no end of sub-dickwolves controversies, causing one prominent indie developer to pull out of their shows entirely. The Financial Post's Daniel Kaszor summed them up in an article titled "Penny Arcade needs to fix its Krahulik problem".

But by reopening the wound that first suggested that all was not well at Penny Arcade, Krahulik has also firmly reopened the debate about whether the pair can be trusted with the power they have in gaming. The contagion of the rest of their properties starts at the top, and it's looking less and less likely that they can avoid getting part of the taint. The PA report is a good news organisation; PAX conventions seem like genuinely good fun; and Child's Play raised over $5m to buy games for children's hospitals last year. All three started with a boost from the PA brand, but will it become a millstone dragging them down instead?

Let's not forget the mess they made from treating Jessica Nigiri the way they did last year. Want to stop misogyny in the gaming community. Getting rid of Krahulik and whoever else keeps being the dickcheeses that make these dumbass decisions and comments at PA would be a great start.
 

Gestault

Member
Article glosses over the intent of the comic being game mechanics verses game writing, and actively misleads the nature of the controversy.

Not particularly impressed.
 

Rodaballo

Banned
Dickwolves was a misunderstood strip. used for profit for our transfeminist-maneater-strongwomenwhoneedsnomen overlords
 

Azih

Member
What is the obsession some people have with the two guys who write and draw Penny arcade comics? Sure PAX, and Child's Play are for the same people but they are really pretty separate from each other.
 

Gestault

Member
So...that makes what they did and said okay?

In the same sense that including content in the discussion of something is not inherently endorsement of it, then yes. If you can't work out why the comic is critical of game logic which flippantly uses something as awful as rape as a story element, then something has gone over your head.
 

ImpendingFoil

Neo Member
Regardless of side, no good is going to come from any of this.

Penny Arcade has a right to their opinion, just as much as you have a right to yours. If you do not like the opinions by Penny Arcade then do not use their site, conventions, etc. If enough people feel the same, Penny Arcade may change their approach. They might not as well, it is their site and they are free to do with it as they see fit.

I think Penny Arcade can be childish at times and do not usually finding myself going there to read every strip, if you have a problem then just move on. Tell your friends how you feel and let them form their own opinion on the subject.
 
Yesterday, during the closing stages of PAX, Penny Arcade's convention in Seattle, Krahulik told a panel that he thought "that pulling the dickwolves merchandise was a mistake," to cheers from the audience.

Watched the video to confirm this, but what the fuck? Who is so excited about rape jokes that they cheer wildly over someone else regretting not continuing to sell dickwolves merchandise? I'm a bit out of the loop on this entire story, but this seems quite sad to me.

Edit: Maybe the people cheering aren't so excited about rape jokes but more excited by Krahulik standing up for his beliefs/expressions/work? I guess that could make a little sense, but I'm not sure I have that much faith in humanity. ultron87 has the same idea it seems!
 

kirblar

Member
To this day I still don't really know what happened with any clarity. Any place I can get an overview?
Massive overreaction to a comic where the butt of the joke is not "rape", but is instead the "nothing actually changes, you just collect/kill 10 things and move on" nature of MMO questing. However, if you haven't played one, the context for the joke is lost on you. PA guys are actually in the right, but the lack of cultural context causes them to get pilloried.

And that would be that, except that they acted like 10 year olds about a year later and sold "Dickwolves" shirts (because they were still mad about it) and actually created a real problem for themselves..
 

kidko

Member
The problem is not the comic strip anymore. It's their reaction to the criticism. Their complete failure to see things from another perspective. Show any hint of empathy for the struggle of other people. I'm so done with PA. Garbage people. Throwing money at charities is wonderful, but it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever you want to be an intolerant ignorant ass publicly, encouraging hundreds/thousands of people do do the same.
 

ultron87

Member
Watched the video to confirm this, but what the fuck? Who is so excited about rape jokes that they cheer wildly over someone else regretting not continuing to sell dickwolves merchandise? I'm a bit out of the loop on this entire story, but this seems quite sad to me.

I'd imagine that the cheers are more from a perspective of "yeah man, fuck censorship!" or "everything Penny Arcade says ever is awesome!" than "yeah, rape jokes!"
 

Nairume

Banned
To this day I still don't really know what happened with any clarity. Any place I can get an overview?

1) PA makes the Dickwolves comics. The joke is about game mechanics not flying with writing, but it utilizes rape as part of the setup.
2) People comment on how the comic could be offensive because it utilizes rape as part of a joke and asked that PA not use rape in their jokes
3) PA issues Dickwolves shirts out of spite
4) A small backlash forms of people threatening to not go to PAX/support PA things as long as the merch is still being sold
5) Gabe announces that he will proudly wear his Dickwolves shirt to PAX
6) Bigger backlash forms that threatens PAX and other things
7) PA pulls the merch and apoligizes
8) Time Passes
9) Gabe starts shit again
 
If you wanted to make a parody of feminism descending into vapid, holier-than-thou, victimhood seeking posturing I don't think you could even come up with something as outlandish as taking offense at the existence of completely fictional joke creatures with dicks for arms, but here we are.
 
I feel like the only mistake is Krahulik (if I remember right) doubling down and being an asshole about it.

If they stood by their joke and acknowledged that some people would be deeply troubled by it, but then defended the right to artistic expression at the cost of a number of their fans, both sides might come away with a sense of understanding the other's viewpoint.

Assuming they handle it tactfully, I'm actually glad they are bringing this issue up again. Hopefully being a little older and with Krahulik wearing a self-imposed muzzle, there is a completely productive debate to be had here.
 

MG310

Member
Yeah, it was kind of a lazy line that didn't really even need to be there for the joke to work. It's not so much that Mike says these things in the first place - it's that he doubles down on them and then escalates the situation.

It's a shame since a lot of the other stuff they do is great - Child's Play, PAX, Strip Search etc.
 

MrDaravon

Member
The biggest reason this blew up was their initial response which generally consisted of Mike being a total idiot, and it just get snowballing from there. I took no issue with the strip, but I took issue with him continuing to act like an insensitive jackass and put his foot in his mouth over and over again, which he has done on other topics and issues as well.

I straight up don't go to their site, read their comics, or buy their books/merch (which I did for years religiously) anymore solely because of Mike. The guy is a manchild who doubles down on every stupid thing he says.
 
They should do it. Shut down Penny Arcade. Shut down PAX. Shut down Child's Play. These people that make jokes on the internet are responsible for the rape culture that exists today and they must be stopped.
 
The problem is not the comic strip anymore. It's their reaction to the criticism. Their complete failure to see things from another perspective. Show any hint of empathy for the struggle of other people. I'm so done with PA. Garbage people. Throwing money at charities is wonderful, but it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever you want to be an intolerant ignorant ass publicly, encouraging hundreds/thousands of people do do the same.

Other people's struggle against rape wolves with dicks for arms? That struggle? When will people have empathy, smh.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Mike's an idiot. Rape jokes, no matter what the context, aren't funny, and is a sign of an extremely lazy writer. Sad because I enjoy Penny Arcade a lot.

That being said, people going out and saying "If you go to PAX you're an ignorant moron" is a bit too much.

The initial joke was never a joke about rape or at the expense of rape victims, it wasn't "rape is funny," the joke was that of course you should save all these sex slaves in this medieval world, but per the game you only need to save 5 so just ignore the rest and move on. The very definition of cognitive dissonance that the game community is so fond of recently. That was the initial joke, pointing out that contradiction. Everything since then has gotten progressively weirder to an extent, but I always thought the initial reaction to the strip was completely and utterly missing the point, and Mike's initial defensive reaction seemed appropriate.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
From http://www.newstatesman.com/alex-hern/2013/09/penny-arcade-reopens-dickwolves-controversy (I corrected a few spelling errors the guy had in the article, though)



Let's not forget the mess they made from treating Jessica Nigiri the way they did last year. Want to stop misogyny in the gaming community. Getting rid of Krahulik and whoever else keeps being the dickcheeses that make these dumbass decisions and comments at PA would be a great start.

I don't think you can "get rid of Krahulik" at Penny Arcade and have it be PA.
 

kirblar

Member
Other people's struggle against rape wolves with dicks for arms? That struggle? When will people have empathy, smh.
The problem is that they didn't understand that they needed to just let it die. They reacted terribly to the (unfair) criticism of the original strip, and dug themselves a far, far deeper and more problematic hole than they originally had.
 

darkpower

Banned
To this day I still don't really know what happened with any clarity. Any place I can get an overview?

http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline

+1. What was the deal with Jessica Nigiri? Totally missed that.

Basically PA had a fit from her cosplaying Juliet from Lollipop Chainsaw on the second day she was doing so for the LC booth because she had the pink latex outfit that Juliet wore (the way she wore it). That in itself wouldn't have been so much of an issue if they didn't THEN have an issue with what she replaced it with: the same outfit she had on the day before without incident, making it confusing of what they had a real problem with. They had the "no booth babe" thing (on the basis of them being "family friendly"...I guess they think kids would have a kick out of "Dickwolves"), but they do allow cosplay within context of the game, and her outfits were within context of the M rated game. There was a misconception that she was banned from PAX, but she actually had a third outfit that they didn't have an issue with (that had nothing to do with the game, but there you go).

I wrote a whole article about it on Daily Kos (and I can link it if I know I won't get in trouble for the shameless plug).
 

Coxy

Member
If you wanted to make a parody of feminism descending into vapid, holier-than-thou, victimhood seeking posturing I don't think you could even come up with something as outlandish as taking offense at the existence of completely fictional joke creatures with dicks for arms, but here we are.

Dont worry, it's well backed up by sensible facts like him playing a Tori Amos song once
 

DangerStepp

Member
I can see the point of both sides and understand how the strip comes off as offensive.

It was very dumb to re-hash this when you would think it would be in PA's best interest to just let it die.

It's still not as awful as that horrible, horrible CAG comic.
 
I'm not really a Penny Arcade fan since their jokes always fly above me, but people seriously thought this strip was misogynistic?

I mean, rape isn't something to be joked about, but still. Never understood the controversy behind this strip at all.

They should do it. Shut down Penny Arcade. Shut down PAX. Shut down Child's Play. These people that make jokes on the internet are responsible for the rape culture that exists today and they must be stopped.

Let's not go that far.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Watched the video to confirm this, but what the fuck? Who is so excited about rape jokes that they cheer wildly over someone else regretting not continuing to sell dickwolves merchandise? I'm a bit out of the loop on this entire story, but this seems quite sad to me.

Edit: Maybe the people cheering aren't so excited about rape jokes but more excited by Krahulik standing up for his beliefs/expressions/work? I guess that could make a little sense, but I'm not sure I have that much faith in humanity. ultron87 has the same idea it seems!
I might have applauded, were I there. I so firmly believe that no topic should ever be off limits for humor, ever, in any context, that it saddens me when people who clearly agree with me back down from that belief because others on the internet write message board posts and blogs about how offended or mad they are. Seeing someone with as much power as Mike willing to bring it back up and declare in public that backing down was a mistake, makes me respect him quite a bit more.
 

kirblar

Member
I'm not really a Penny Arcade fan since their jokes always fly above me, but people seriously thought this strip was misogynistic?

I mean, rape isn't something to be joked about, but still. Never understood the controversy behind this strip at all.

Let's not go that far.
It's because the people who think the joke is about rape haven't played MMOs and lack the context to understand that the strip isn't meant to make you laugh at the victim.
 
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