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[OttomanScribe]

Youre usually a better apologist than that. Relying on false equivalency isn't your style.

But sure, Cronulla, so therefore violence from Muslims...

I don't think at any point I've excused these people. Was just rather weirded out by the whole 'it makes it look like a foreign city' thing.

I find that in these discussions there is this pleasant undercurrent of that kind of thing, an undercurrent that didn't exist with Cronulla.

You said 'it makes it look like Iraq' to imply something foreign about it, when Australia has also had its own special riot tradition. I was an anarchist at g20, I am intimately familiar with it.


On another note, I think the whole world should be run like a Gaf. With overarching all powerful mods, and idiots or people who say outlandish things not beheaded, but tatooed with tags of what they said.

 

[Fusebox]

It should have been fairly clear from my original post that I was referring to the slogans on the placards when I made the comment about looking like Iran.

Placards saying shit like BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET and OUR DEAD ARE IN HEAVEN YOURS ARE IN HELL make the place look like a city in Iran, not Australia. Pack of wankers.

 

[planar1280]

So I was discussing this with my friend while watching the news and I realised something. The protests in Egypt/Libya/Tunisia for example are 1/10th of the protestors which came out against the government in the Arab Spring yet the US Media is portraying it as an anger from every Muslim in the Arab world. The only exception being the terrorist attack which killed the US Ambassador, Aside from that, all the Muhammad (saw) video protests have been very very small

 

[OttomanScribe]

It should have been fairly clear from my original post that I was referring to the slogans on the placards when I made the comment about looking like Iran.

Slogans on Placards. Hallmark of Iran.

 

[Fusebox]

Pretending to be naive doesn't suit you.

 

[markot]

The film maker is a 'bastion of innocence' because he did nothing wrong in making a movie.

 

[Ravensmash]

So I was discussing this with my friend while watching the news and I realised something. The protests in Egypt/Libya/Tunisia for example are 1/10th of the protestors which came out against the government in the Arab Spring yet the US Media is portraying it as an anger from every Muslim in the Arab world. The only exception being the terrorist attack which killed the US Ambassador, Aside from that, all the Muhammad (saw) video protests have been very very small

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Arab spring wasn't heavily reported on - I think everyone watching the news realised that a good portion of featured country wanted change, especially in Egypt with Tahrir Square etc.

I haven't been following this story too closely, but have they focused on the counter demonstrations? The one in Benghazi (?) actually provided some fairly powerful images.

 

[scar tissue]

The guy behind this is truly the king of trolls.

It's sad that people had to die, but I still believe that sending radical muslims the message that their religion is NOT sacred to us is more important.
I refuse to bow down before radical muslims. It is my personal right to create any depiction of muhammad I wish. Hell, I could draw a picture of him with my own feces, if I wanted to.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Pretending to be naive doesn't suit you.

What would you point to as the pretence and the naivety?

The attitude I'm discussing got wide play today. Peter Fitzsimmon's opinion piece for example:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/an-open-letter-20120915-25ziq.html

Get this straight, and quickly: some of you may be from countries where this kind of thing is acceptable. But it is NOT acceptable in this country.

Racists have said for years, “If you don't like the way we do things here, go back to where you came from.” The net result of your actions yesterday is that – for those people specifically disgracing themselves in the CBD yesterday, not the vast bulk of Islamic Australians – much of the country now feels the same.

Nice work.

 

[Fusebox]

What would you point to as the pretence and the naivety?

C'mon Scribe, you were pretending I was merely referring to the presence of placards, not the actual calls for beheading that were on those placards. You aren't usually so disingenuous in threads like this.

 

[OttomanScribe]

C'mon Scribe, you were pretending I was merely referring to the presence of placards, not the actual calls for beheading that were on those placards. You aren't usually so disingenuous in threads like this.

Ahh.

Nope, wasn't pretending.

 

[Instigator]

how does that matter?

It matters for the flawed analogy to remotely work. You can't go around comparing Muslims rioting for insulting their religion with burning churches down because they're anti gay rights... when you are not even gay. Why would you be upset out of your mind over something that doesn't concern you?

 

[Clay Davis]

The film maker is a 'bastion of innocence' because he did nothing wrong in making a movie.

he wasn't wrong in making a film criticizing islam or muslims or the prophet. he was wrong to lie about his intentions, he was wrong to mislead actors, he was wrong to dub over their lines, he was wrong to break his parole. he's not blameless and people need to make the distinction. his making the movie isn't in question, it's everything else he did that is.

some people are letting him completely off the hook and that's wrong, he has a lot to answer for but not about his right to make the movie criticizing the religion but even that might be in question if he was legally banned from using computers and other devices.

bringing this up isn't shifting the blame as some people keep saying, it's being critical and wanting to know what his real intentions were. it's not a clear cut case of criticizing and mockign religions as others have done in the past, those people have made it clear what their intentions were and aren't afraid to stand up and defend their work. they also didn't have lie to make their movies or have ulterior motives. there's a lot more to this story and it's strange to me that people are willing to overlook so much.

maybe it's too early to ask these questions, the despicable acts of the murderers are still fresh in everyone's minds and so anyone talking about something else might be wrongly seen as them shifting the blame or eve worse, sympathizing with the murderers.

 

[SmokyDave]

he wasn't wrong in making a film criticizing islam or muslims or the prophet. he was wrong to lie about his intentions, he was wrong to mislead actors, he was wrong to dub over their lines, he was wrong to break his parole. he's not blameless and people need to make the distinction. his making the movie isn't in question, it's everything else he did that is.

some people are letting him completely off the hook and that's wrong, he has a lot to answer for but not about his right to make the movie criticizing the religion but even that might be in question if he was legally banned from using computers and other devices.

But none of that has anything to do with the reaction to the film, which is what most people are talking about.

bringing this up isn't shifting the blame as some people keep saying, it's being critical and wanting to know what his real intentions were. it's not a clear cut case of criticizing and mockign religions as others have done in the past, those people have made it clear what their intentions were and aren't afraid to stand up and defend their work. they also didn't have lie to make their movies or have ulterior motives. there's a lot more to this story and it's strange to me that people are willing to overlook so much.

maybe it's too early to ask these questions, the despicable acts of the murderers are still fresh in everyone's minds and so anyone talking about something else might be wrongly seen as them shifting the blame or eve worse, sympathizing with the murderers.

His real intention was to piss off Muslims.

The amount of posts you have written that all essentially say exactly the same as this one is incredible. You've expended so much energy on the filmmaker and his motives and so little on the murderous rioters that it's difficult not to cast a suspicious eye on your motives. That's why you're rubbing people up the wrong way, I reckon.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

But none of that has anything to do with the reaction to the film, which is what most people are talking about.


His real intention was to piss off Muslims.

The amount of posts you have written that all essentially say exactly the same as this one is incredible. You've expended so much energy on the filmmaker and his motives and so little on the murderous rioters that it's difficult not to cast a suspicious eye on your motives. That's why you're rubbing people up the wrong way, I reckon.

pretty much this.

Clay, you keep bringing up the film maker as if he pointed some gun at the head of muslims and forced them to act the way they did and are, and it does feel like your shifting the blame. Why would it be too early to ask these questions, i'd think by the time people cool off about the murders, they'll cool off even more about some shitty, ignorant, poorly made, intentionally insulting movie about muhammad. Theres no reason why his actions deserve more scutiny then those of the muderers, ever.

 

[Clay Davis]

But none of that has anything to do with the reaction to the film, which is what most people are talking about.


His real intention was to piss off Muslims.

The amount of posts you have written that all essentially say exactly the same as this one is incredible. You've expended so much energy on the filmmaker and his motives and so little on the murderous rioters that it's difficult not to cast a suspicious eye on your motives. That's why you're rubbing people up the wrong way, I reckon.

as I said to you previously, there's nothing more to said about the murderers that hasn't already been said. what more can be said about them or what more can be derived from their actions that isn't apparent to everyone? should we just ignore everything about the man behind the movie because of what murderers did or because we interpret his movie to be insulting and pissing off muslims? I find that as strange as people who suspect me of having ulterior motives.

you're right his intention was to upset and piss off muslims, but at the same time the way he went about it leaves a lot to answer for. it wouldn't be hard for him to find like minded people to make his film, so why did he employ actors and mislead them instead of of being honest from the very beginning. this is a what I want to know. it's not hard to find people who would be willing to help him, his misleading them and lying about why he was making the movie is what I'm trying to understand. I have the same problem with him pretending to be Israeli. I don't understand the reasons behind his motives. I'm trying to understand them.

I don't believe asking these questions is wrong, but if you feel they are I'll stop asking.

 

[sonicmj1]

Even if the filmmaker is not as big of a total shitbag as protestors who assault random people and break things for perceived slights, he's still a shitbag.

I don't care that he wanted to provoke radicals. But he did everything he could to deflect blame to anyone but him. It's irresponsible and dishonest. It's the sort of thing a total asshole would do. Claiming that his film was the result of the backing of a cabal of wealthy Jews is some disgusting behavior.

None of this justifies the killing, rioting, and destruction that followed, which is definitely even worse behavior than the above. I'm not sure I can think of any situation where that sort of protest would be justified.

Maybe everyone agrees on all of this, in which case we should stop looking for reasons to argue.

 

[Seance]

Could the film be considered criminal, as a form of hate speech?

 

[Clay Davis]

Could the film be considered criminal, as a form of hate speech?

not in the us but it might be other countries that hate speech laws. I support his right in making the movie even if his only motivation was to incite extremists but I don't support his methods.

 

[Freezie KO]

Could the film be considered criminal, as a form of hate speech?

Sure, in a country where people aren't free to criticize religion.

 

[SmokyDave]

I don't believe asking these questions is wrong, but if you feel they are I'll stop asking.

Dude, I'm not here to tell you what you can and can't talk about. I was just pointing out why some might question your motives.

I think you'll get the answers in due time, he's bound to give a frank interview sooner or later.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Sure, in a country where people aren't free to criticize religion.

It depends what you mean by hate speech. Here in Britain, prosecution under 'hate speech' isn't based on the content of what was said, but rather the intent behind it. You can say what you like, but if your words are designed specifically to provoke distress or alarm in a person, then you can be found guilty. Comedians were particularly upset by this law if I remember right

 

[Grim1ock]

It's all about a simple lack of respect. There are beliefs out there which you and me would not have a single time and day for. But as adults and rational human beings we will respect their beliefs. And if there was something about such beliefs that really bother us which require us to speak up, then we do so in a good respectful, calm and constructive manner.

It's all about intentions. If you have good intentions and proceed to do it in a good way, the fruits of your labour will turn out to be good as well. But if your intention is to cause mischief and chaos then it says alot about you as person.

IS it any suprise to see what happened? How many times have we seen the same reaction before? The cartoons, the movie fitna etc.

 

[Kurtofan]

So the religion whose followers are inspired to do crazy shit like murder people and start riots ISN'T a cult?

All Muslims murder people and start riots?It's not a characteristic of Islam.

 

[Freezie KO]

It depends what you mean by hate speech. Here in Britain, prosecution under 'hate speech' isn't based on the content of what was said, but rather the intent behind it. You can say what you like, but if your words are designed specifically to provoke distress or alarm in a person, then you can be found guilty. Comedians were particularly upset by this law if I remember right

It seems very dicey to me to legislate based on supposed intent and the sensitivity of the audience.

 

[Maleficence]

All Muslims murder people and start riots?It's not a characteristic of Islam.

I often wonder why extremists in Islam (while probably higher in number/percentage compared to Christians) are often shown to reflect the religion as a whole but the Westboro Baptist Church aren't shown to reflect Christianity as a whole.

 

[IpsoFacto]

A Coptic Christian?????

Holy fuck, Christians in Egypt may undergo a bloodbath once this gets out.

I'm afraid not, violence against Coptic Christians has been a huge problem in Egypt since, well, 700 AD.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I'm afraid not, violence against Coptic Christians has been a huge problem in Egypt since, well, 700 AD.

Though it took 500 years for Islam to become the majority, so the forced conversion campaign was an epic failure.

 

[sonicfan]

What do you all make of this?

Producer Of Anti-Islam Film Was Fed Snitch

 

[radios shipping overview]

So why isn't the State Department peppering these crowds with flyers explaining the actual origins, circumstances, and nature of the video? I realize that the video is blocked in many of these areas, so with so many people acting on so little actual knowledge, you'd think somebody would see the value in trying to inform them what they're actually angry about.

 

[OttomanScribe]

What do you all make of this?

Producer Of Anti-Islam Film Was Fed Snitch

Interesting. Though not necessarily particularly suspect.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I often wonder why extremists in Islam (while probably higher in number/percentage compared to Christians) are often shown to reflect the religion as a whole but the Westboro Baptist Church aren't shown to reflect Christianity as a whole.

Probably because you don't have stories coming out every other week about the WBC or other extreme Christians stoning women for having affairs, cutting off people's heads for being gay, or rioting every time somebody makes fun of Jesus. Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to accuse ALL muslims of being crazed lunatics like these. A vast majority of Muslims are NOT blood thirsty murderers. My point was simply that it is laughable to act as if one religion is above another just because Scientology is a punchline right now. To an outsider, there is very little difference between Scientology and other organized religions.

 

[Ravensmash]

So why isn't the State Department peppering these crowds with flyers explaining the actual origins, circumstances, and nature of the video? I realize that the video is blocked in many of these areas, so with so many people acting on so little actual knowledge, you'd think somebody would see the value in trying to inform them what they're actually angry about.

Even a notice outside the embassies themselves, either condemning the video or distancing themselves from it.

I can't help but feel that majority of this anger is misdirected due to lack of information, tbh.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Nothing in that article by the Independent surprises me in the least. There is a fundamental lack of understanding here, and the quotes in that article demonstrate that

 

[apana]

I have a feeling this is like one of those scenes you see in films and tv shows where the guy in the prison yard is like "alright everybody lets riot!!" and all the dudes start rioting just cause.

There are billions of people on the planet. There is someone out there who is saying horrible things about you and everything you believe at this very moment. There are videos, drawings, and articles fulfilling the exact same purpose. All in all what I am trying to say is these protesters suck.

 

[Clay Davis]

What do you all make of this?

Producer Of Anti-Islam Film Was Fed Snitch

identity thieves are the worst kind of scum there is. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the larger story but I've seen first hand the problems they cause people and how much stress it inflicts on people who have had their identities stolen and used to take out loans.

 

[Clay Davis]

there's been a development, the man behind the movie has been sent back to jail for violating his parole.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, the filmmaker behind the controversial movie “Innocence of Muslims” that has sparked days of rioting across the Muslim world, was ordered detained Thursday by a federal judge for allegedly violating terms of his probation.

The judge cited a "lengthy pattern of deception," including making false statements to probation officials. "The court has a lack of trust in the defendant at this time," Judge Suzanne H. Segal said, adding that he posed "some danger to the community."

Nakoula was arrested earlier in the day. Federal prosecutors argued in a court hearing Thursday afternoon that he posed a flight risk and should remain in custody.

His attorney argued that Nakoula be released on bond, saying his client would be in danger at the downtown L.A. federal prison because it had a large Muslim population. He also denied his client violated his probation.

Nakoula was convicted on bank fraud charges in 2010 and was warned against misbehaving on the Internet.

He was ordered not to own or use devices with access to the Web without approval from his probation officer -– and any approved computers were to be used for work only. "Defendant shall not access a computer for any other purpose," according to the terms of his probation.

There were also restrictions placed on him in enlisting others to get on the Internet for him. Some speculated that Nakoula may have violated those terms after the film trailer was loaded onto YouTube, although it is unclear what exactly prompted the recent arrest.

Nakoula had been arrested in 2009 after federal agents searched his home in Cerritos on suspicion that he had engaged in a scheme to create fake identities and open credit cards in those names, then draw tens of thousands of dollars from the phony accounts.

According to the court file, Nakoula operated under a dizzying array of aliases, including Kritbag Difrat. In June 2010, he was convicted on four counts, including bank fraud and identity theft, and was sentenced to 21 months in federal prison. He was also ordered to pay $794,700.57 in restitution.

He was released, according to federal records, in June 2011.

Authorities interviewed Nakoula earlier this month amid the furor over the movie. Actors have identified him as the filmmaker.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...slims-filmmaker-ordered-to-jail-by-judge.html

it looks like we may never get the answer to some questions like why he lied about being Israeli, why he lied to actors and where he really got the financing for the movie.

 

[Rentahamster]

Dude got sentenced to one year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/mark-basseley-youssef-prison-sentence_n_2090279.html

LOS ANGELES — The California man behind an anti-Muslim film that led to violence in many parts of the Middle East was sentenced Wednesday to a year in federal prison for probation violations in an unrelated matter, then issued a provocative statement through his attorney.

The sentence was the result of a plea bargain between lawyers for Mark Bassely Youssef and federal prosecutors. Youssef admitted in open court that he had used several false names in violation of his probation order and obtained a driver's license under a false name. He was on probation for a bank fraud case.

Shortly after Youssef left the courtroom, his lawyer, Steven Seiden, came to the front steps of the courthouse and told reporters his client wanted to send a message.

"The one thing he wanted me to tell all of you is President Obama may have gotten Osama bin Laden, but he didn't kill the ideology," Seiden said.

Asked what that meant, Seiden said, "I didn't ask him, and I don't know."

Question: would the government had really cared about sending him back to prison if he had made a video about anything else that didn't have such a public and controversial response?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The sentence was the result of a plea bargain between lawyers for Mark Bassely Youssef and federal prosecutors. Youssef admitted in open court that he had used several false names in violation of his probation order and obtained a driver's license under a false name. He was on probation for a bank fraud case.

So he's in jail for having used several false names in violation of his probation order and obtained a driver's license under a false name, the probation being connected to a bank fraud case?

Yeah, I don't see the big deal here.

 

[iamblades]

I often wonder why extremists in Islam (while probably higher in number/percentage compared to Christians) are often shown to reflect the religion as a whole but the Westboro Baptist Church aren't shown to reflect Christianity as a whole.

If you don't think loons like the WBC have a negative effect on the perceptions of Christians as a whole in this country, you are mistaken. IMO they've almost singlehandedly made homosexuality and gay rights an untouchable topic for most mainstream christian churches.

It's just not as big of an effect because as shitty as they are, they haven't killed anyone as of yet.

Generally people are pretty tolerant of words here, even stuff as repugnant as the WBC's screed.

 

[iamblades]

there's been a development, the man behind the movie has been sent back to jail for violating his parole.



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...slims-filmmaker-ordered-to-jail-by-judge.html

it looks like we may never get the answer to some questions like why he lied about being Israeli, why he lied to actors and where he really got the financing for the movie.

Financing? From what I saw of the film, looked like a pizza and a six pack would about cover the expenses.

 

[adversesolutions]

Realistically I'd say there's a good chance he could be killed in prison.

 

[FyreWulff]

Question: would the government had really cared about sending him back to prison if he had made a video about anything else that didn't have such a public and controversial response?

He violated his probation and created several false identities and went so far as to get a license under that identity

They let him off easy with just taking him back under a probation violation. There isn't "oh, you only kinda violated your probation, it's cool". They lay out your terms of probation and you can either not break them or break them.

 

[Dash27]

It's all about a simple lack of respect. There are beliefs out there which you and me would not have a single time and day for. But as adults and rational human beings we will respect their beliefs. And if there was something about such beliefs that really bother us which require us to speak up, then we do so in a good respectful, calm and constructive manner.

It's all about intentions. If you have good intentions and proceed to do it in a good way, the fruits of your labour will turn out to be good as well. But if your intention is to cause mischief and chaos then it says alot about you as person.

IS it any suprise to see what happened? How many times have we seen the same reaction before? The cartoons, the movie fitna etc.

And so what is the solution? Arrest him?

The reality is people make fun of all religions, and they are not the least bit concerned with bring adult or respectful about it. One group, whether they are sincere or just using religion as an excuse, reacts violently and to this point they've had success. The muslim faith is treated much differently than christian, jew, mormon, protestant etc. So if violence achieves the goal of getting people to stop criticizing your religion, what is the lesson?

 

[replicashooter]

Nobody would have known about this film if it wasn't for the media trumpeting it from the rooftops, I'm sure youtube is jam packed with stuff like this (both in terms of content and calibre) that nobody has seen and therefore hasn't been offended by, so surely they are complicit in all of this?

 

[Infinite]

From what I understand of the film having not seen it of course is that a real big problem with it is that he made most of what he proposed as facts about the prophet and the religion were made up.

 

[lednerg]

Dude got sentenced to one year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/mark-basseley-youssef-prison-sentence_n_2090279.html

Question: would the government had really cared about sending him back to prison if he had made a video about anything else that didn't have such a public and controversial response?

I really don't care about how it became a story, I'm just glad he's going away. He knowingly placed those actors in danger by lying about the intentions of the film, over-dubbing their dialog with words like "Mohammad" and so on. That's pretty messed up, and I hope they can sue the crap out of him.

 

[Polari]

Nobody would have known about this film if it wasn't for the media trumpeting it from the rooftops, I'm sure youtube is jam packed with stuff like this (both in terms of content and calibre) that nobody has seen and therefore hasn't been offended by, so surely they are complicit in all of this?

Not really. For me the only people responsible are the butthurt Muslims who massively overreacted. You aren't always gonna like what people say, learn to fucking deal with it in a way other than rioting and killing, dumbasses.

 

[FieryBalrog]

I hope Christians are learning from this. The next time Family Guy or someone on GAF makes fun of Jesus, the correct answer is to throw massive riots in the streets. That way you, too, can have the respect and fear you deserve!

 

[replicashooter]

Not really. For me the only people responsible are the butthurt Muslims who massively overreacted. You aren't always gonna like what people say, learn to fucking deal with it in a way other than rioting and killing, dumbasses.

Surely I cant be the only one who can see how much of a blatantly crafted chess style move that was. They even called it "innocent muslims" FFS.

But I stand by my original point, without the Medes interference this films release would have been a non event, instead it turned into a jamboree of stupidity as expected. The keikaku was strong in this one..