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Peterson & Fry Team Up to Defend Free Speech Against Political Correctness

Dunki

Member
So... IF 64% of the murders aren't committed by black people, black people are still the problem? Also, to use the school shooter defender logic, doesn't the fact that ONLY 17,000 people out of 324,000,000 people( 0.01%) get murdered mean that murder really isn't something Americans shouldn't be worried about? Or is murder only a problem when black people do it?
Murder is a problem no matter what it will result in people getting more scared. Police being more careful around black people etc. That is our perception and prejudices Is it fair? No it is not but we are also human beings we can not just ignore these statistics in the end. Even if we do not want to we will have these in our minds and I guess the most important thing for people is their life which hey want to protect.
Overall I would say the weapon law is the biggest problem and given these stats it does not help black people at all. Again to change this you need to change these statistics
 
Murder is a problem no matter what it will result in people getting more scared
Is it cool that we tell all school children to be scared of white male teens since 100% of school shooters are white male teens? Shouldn't authorities be on alert? Shouldn't white male teens be under tons of scrutiny? I mean, since it's cool to castigate black people and muslims, it's only fair.
 
So... IF 64% of the murders aren't committed by black people, black people are still the problem? Also, to use the school shooter defender logic, doesn't the fact that ONLY 17,000 people out of 324,000,000 people( 0.01%) get murdered mean that murder really isn't something Americans shouldn't be worried about? Or is murder only a problem when black people do it?
I just quoted a stat. I didn't express any opinion.

I don't think there is some factor that is "the problem". I think these are very complicated issues. There is historical racism, inequality, discrimination, people growing in shitty neighborhoods, police departments giving up on the good people, bad education, violence in the streets, etc...

And I don't live in America. To me the amount of weapons there are in your country is batshit insane. I think you would be much better with much stricter gun laws, but there isn't much I can do about that.
 
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Dunki

Member
Is it cool that we tell all school children to be scared of white male teens since 100% of school shooters are white male teens? Shouldn't authorities be on alert? Shouldn't white male teens be under tons of scrutiny? I mean, since it's cool to castigate black people and muslims, it's only fair.
How often do these happen? It is he amount that should make you worry. And no as I said before it is not okay but if you are working as a cop you can not really tell me that it will not affect you when you hear these.

As for Muslims: In terms of terror? No not really in terms of equality and world views it is more general to crticize muslims (except US Mulsims since exceptions they are role models) when we are talking about generalization we are talking about the general majority. And here the general majority fits.
 
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I just quoted a stat. I didn't express any opinion.
But you didn't. You went out of your way to recalculate the stat to exclude the unknown offenders.
How often do these happen?
22 in 5 months is essentially once a week.
And no as I said before it is not okay but if you are working as a cop you can not really tell me that it will not affect you when you hear these.
That's because people like you keep screaming that 13% of the population is killing over 50 percent of the people. What you are saying is that EVERY BLACK PERSON is committing murder. But I guess its easier than saying 5000 people out of 325,000,000 people are committing how ever many of the measly 17,000 murders per year. Right?
(except US Muslims since exceptions they are role models)
So when you interject you anti-muslim rhetoric into topics of american politics what is your motive?
 
But you didn't. You went out of your way to recalculate the stat to exclude the unknown offenders.
Well, I talk about the data we know. The data we don't know I can't say which race they are because we don't know.

You said before that 64% of murderers aren't black, and that is actually wrong. Unknown is unknown. They may be white, black, asian, alien space robots or whatever. That's why I only quoted the numbers of the racial groups we actually know of.
 
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You said before that 64% of murderers aren't black, and that is actually wrong. Unknown is unknown. They may be white, black, asian, alien space robots or whatever. That's why I only quoted the numbers of the racial groups we actually know of.
Lol. The chart you're basing this on is based on ACTUAL ARRESTS though. Since you aren't from America I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. America don't care what what you identify as. America invented a thing called the one drop rule that states that as long you have ONE DROP of black blood in your system, you're black. There's a reason why the nazi's studied American racism, buddy. Unknown is some version of white they can't pin down, because heaven forbid we amp up the white numbers.
 
Lol. The chart you're basing this on is based on ACTUAL ARRESTS though. Since you aren't from America I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. America don't care what what you identify as. America invented a thing called the one drop rule that states that as long you have ONE DROP of black blood in your system, you're black. There's a reason why the nazi's studied American racism, buddy. Unknown is some version of white they can't pin down, because heaven forbid we amp up the white numbers.
I think unknown is when they haven't caught the murderer. You know, there also are 5,000+ murderers with unknow sex.
 
This is absolute nonsense. How narcissistic do you have to be to think that men being forced into being the breadwinner is about holding women down and reinforcing “the patriarchy”? It’s not always about you.

Next time a world war breaks out and they need to reactivate the draft, you’ll be encouraging women to be at the front of the line, yeah? For equality?

As for your second post, if women want to fight on the frontlines, then sure. Even your military is fine with women registering if your military is okay with it, then so am I not that I have a say anyway.

That's not quite a draft. "Now that I've been drafted, no front lines please" isn't exactly a thing.

As to the rest of your post with 'women were forced to be in the kitchen' and all, while true, it kind of ignores a lot of historical context for the reason those societal roles came to be in the first place. These things happened long before the industrial revolution, or even remotely modern technology. It wasn't that men selfishly wanted to keep all the hard labor for themselves. For the longest time, it would have been just about impossible for both a husband and wife to work, and also share the tasks required to raise children and manage a household. Gender roles were formed largely out of necessity and were mutually beneficial.

I still think traditional gender roles are important, it's just that now it doesn't matter who works and who stays home with the children. That's also not to say that sexist attitudes didn't remain long after the necessity of gender roles had faded, because they did. To a smaller extent, they still do.
 
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What's everyone's beef with Peterson in general?

Peterson has become the intellectual equivalent of the "Yanny & Laurel" argument, that's currently preoccupying the easily entertained fools on social media. The far-right desperately tries to prop up Peterson as some sort of intellectual leader, despite his best efforts to smack these fools down. The far-left doesn't even listen to Peterson's arguments by superimposing what they would like to hear from their ideological opponent over what he's actually saying. Hence why most of their counter-arguments devolve into strawman arguments because they have no clue how to actually counter Peterson's arguments on an deliberative level.

Goldberg is a perfect example of that:



When most of your argumentative prowess is derived from lazy 'google searches' you really have no place in a debate like this. The deceptively edited Vice interview was enough to confirm her own views, so she didn't even feel the need to watch the full interview giving Peterson's statement its much needed context. Leftist arguments have become soft and lazy because they have become the socially accepted norm and remained unchallenged for far too long. That's why the modern left is easily falling prey to intellectually broken far-left views that are infused with political correctness and identity politics.

It's a sad state of affairs when a NYT columnist is using google as a mere tool to confirm her own bias, instead of applying a reasonable level of critical thinking to the results she dredges up via google. Goldberg, as with the majority of the current left, is too afraid to criticize her own side because she's too afraid it might undermine the very same social causes and moral views that she's currently championing. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth, because it's exactly that sort of critical introspection that gives intellectual credence to these causes and keeps them from going off the deep end. I say this as a leftist myself, who finds the arguments coming from the left deeply unsatisfying because they often turn to dust when held up to reasoned scrutiny.

Conservatives learned this the hard way, when the rationally defunct conservatism of the late 2000's found its culmination in the ridiculous 'Tea Party movement' and Sarah Palin. Since then the libertarians and disenfranchised leftits seem to have produced a new set of rigorous debaters and thinkers, forged in a climate of strong intellectual headwind. These 'renegades of the intellectual dark web' are currently making short work of the far-left ideologues. This time, it's them who are picking up the mantle of western values and enlightenment ideals. The very same notions that allowed our modern democracies to flourish in the first place and are now being attacked by far-left ideologies much in the same way that the 'Tea Party movement' ridiculed these ideas.

The dismissive way how Goldberg references enlightenment values is testimony to that. Stephen Fry's intellectual role model on the other hand is Bertrand Russell (he even quotes him at the end of the debate), a famous logician and one of the founders of analytical philosophy who is known for holding up the flame of enlightenment and freedom of thought against idealism and mythological superstition. His well-known teapot analogy is testimony to Russell's argumentative clarity and rigorous thought.

The left is currently spitting on the intellectual legacy of these giants, merely because they are "cis white men". In their ideological hubris at doing so they are merely discrediting their own ideals by replacing old dogmas with a set of new ones. They have the temerity to call it 'progress', but the only progressive thing about it is the label they decided to put on it.

Enlightenment values are the culmination of a thought process that started almost 2.500 years ago, they are f*ckin' timeless. To think that some hipster douche in SF of NYC can so easily challenge these notions while sipping on his Matcha green tea and googling for arguments, is the very definition of narcissism.
 
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joshcryer

it's ok, you're all right now
Leftist intellectualism and honesty went to the trash and I attribute it primarily to the success of the right wing being able to lie and manipulate with great success for decades. The far left, I would argue, hasn't really been affected, because of its generalities and mainly because it's been actually suppressed for the past decade or two. What you're witnessing, in the argumentative sphere, is the corporatist left, who are eager to spout the nonsense that makes these arguments. The far left, if it used a rudimentary, logical, grounded argument from where it would make its arguments, would never fall to these strawmen (there was a recent dispute within anarchist circles about the absurdist usage of "manarchy"; to refer to anarchists who didn't "grasp" feminism, for example, because it was labeling that shut down discussion).

This is really the re-realization of the "evolution" argument, or the "climate change" argument, which the left (not the far left) has struggled with for decades. All you have to do is throw in a straw man to completely disrupt the argument. if you reduce to basic principles, it's a hell of a lot easier to defend your argument. And that's what Peterson does. (I don't actually agree with his purist position, however, hierarchies in sentient, self-aware, intelligent beings are, in my view, unnecessary; specialization is for insects.)
 
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I don't actually agree with his purist position, however, hierarchies in sentient, self-aware, intelligent beings are, in my view, unnecessary; specialization is for insects.

Yes, please tell the neurosurgeon and quantum physicist who studied for more than 3 decades in order to exercise their profession, that "specialization is for insects". I'm sure they'll greatly appreciate your sentiment. Human knowledge has become so vast, that specialization of work and expertise is increasing not decreasing. It's the reason why universal geniuses have gone the way of the dodo.

The guy who gained his peripheral knowledge by a 5 minute google search should have the same authority as the guy who dedicated his whole life to the study of a particular field.
 
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Dunki

Member
But you didn't. You went out of your way to recalculate the stat to exclude the unknown offenders.

22 in 5 months is essentially once a week.

That's because people like you keep screaming that 13% of the population is killing over 50 percent of the people. What you are saying is that EVERY BLACK PERSON is committing murder. But I guess its easier than saying 5000 people out of 325,000,000 people are committing how ever many of the measly 17,000 murders per year. Right?

So when you interject you anti-muslim rhetoric into topics of american politics what is your motive?

As I said before America already has a huge gun problem and it needs to be dealt with.

No I keep screaming that 13% of the people are responsible for over 50% of the overall homocides. This is a stat you can not just ignore because it may reveal harsh realities to you. This is a stat we need to keep reducing nothing else. If these stats change the perception will change as well.

Also I always praise US Muslims for being so liberal and moderate and I wish the majority would be like that. Sadly it is a very small minority. I think linked the pew research about the beliefs of Islamic people more than once already. I live in Germany and here it is a total different picture in which children getting more and more radicalized by mosques finannced through Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc, Integration has utterly failed here. European Muslims can not compared to US Muslims because as I said before they are getting brainwashed and radicalized in our mosques,.

Do you think it is ok that Muslim children threaten Jewisch children and also non Muslims with cutting of their heads? I do not think so. They are in Elementary school for fucks sake.

But this goes pretty offtopic now. Only similarity is that we need to be able to speak about these statistics and issues. By silencing people it will not solve the problem but hide it until it is really too late.
 
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Yes, please tell the neurosurgeon and quantum physicist who studied for more than 3 decades in order to exercise their profession, that "specialization is for insects". I'm sure they'll greatly appreciate your sentiment. Human knowledge has become so vast, that specialization of work and expertise is increasing not decreasing. It's the reason why universal geniuses have gone the way of the dodo.

The guy who gained his peripheral knowledge by a 5 minute google search should have the same authority as the guy who dedicated his whole life to the study of a particular field.

While I agree with what you are saying in this post I think it comes off as unnecessarily hostile and combative. I don't think the poster you are quoting was trying to disparage Peterson or be inflammatory/flippant/dismissive about it. By all accounts from what I can see the poster you quoted seems to broadly agree with your overall point of view and likely your general stances so I don't think it helps in this discussion to be needlessly hostile over an off the cuff remark that was posted within the larger context of a post that seems to mostly agree with you.

I think you are a great poster in general and always very informative and well researched but I think in this instance you are maybe being counter productive to your goals and point. Again that is just my reading and perhaps I'm not interpreting it correctly, which is certainly possible.
 
Again that is just my reading and perhaps I'm not interpreting it correctly, which is certainly possible.

The last part was maybe a little facetious, I admit. But only because I have great admiration for people who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of knowledge. Something that is rarely valued by a society that much prefers to venerate vain media stars and gossip celebrities. I'm not saying that the poster I replied to is indicative of that though, so don't get me wrong. I've appreciated his rather nuanced contributions so far, so if my reply came across as overly hostile and combative, I apologize, that was certainly not my intention.
 
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Just like how the 77% gender pay gap shrinks to 92-95% once you introduce rigorous normalization of the data, a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same. In the end, it's mostly on the margins. It's difficult for me to produce any sort of outrage over them.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No I keep screaming that 13% of the people are responsible for over 50% of the overall homocides. This is a stat you can not just ignore because it may reveal harsh realities to you. This is a stat we need to keep reducing nothing else. If these stats change the perception will change as well.
.

History says that this is a lie! The perception started out with evil intent and it's never changed much. So why should I believe it will change in the future?
 

Dunki

Member
History says that this is a lie! The perception started out with evil intent and it's never changed much. So why should I believe it will change in the future?
Where do you get this? How is it evil intent? Should we not talk bout statistics because they can be hurtful? These stats are not coming from some alt right news site or blog but from the Government unless you want to accuse the government of systematic racism in the years 2008 I do not see the notion that it was evil intent.

Also it will not change in a short period of time. Fighting these statistics will take time yes even generations the point of debates is that there is a problem and that we need ways or solutions to reduce or eliminate these problems.

And in my opinion it is Weapon laws and also fighting poverty in black areas through education giving them a future and fighting crime and I am not talking about some weed but hard drugs, bands etc.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Where do you get this? How is it evil intent? Should we not talk bout statistics because they can be hurtful? These stats are not coming from some alt right news site or blog but from the Government unless you want to accuse the government of systematic racism in the years 2008 I do not see the notion that it was evil intent.

Also it will not change in a short period of time. Fighting these statistics will take time yes even generations the point of debates is that there is a problem and that we need ways or solutions to reduce or eliminate these problems.

And in my opinion it is Weapon laws and also fighting poverty in black areas through education giving them a future and fighting crime and I am not talking about some weed but hard drugs, bands etc.

I'm not hurt because I know black people and our culture isn't causing those stats. The evil intent that I was talking about is white people not trusting black people for centuries before those homicide stats even existed. We've never been trusted. White people didn't even trust us to drink out of their water fountains or eat hamburgers and drink sodas with them.

Why should I believe that white people will honestly trust black people in the future if those stats change?
 
I'm not hurt because I know black people and our culture isn't causing those stats. The evil intent that I was talking about is white people not trusting black people for centuries before those homicide stats even existed. We've never been trusted. White people didn't even trust us to drink out of their water fountains or eat hamburgers and drink sodas with them.

Why should I believe that white people will honestly trust black people in the future if those stats change?
Wow. Im sorry that you or anybody really has to live with that.
 
So... IF 64% of the murders aren't committed by black people, black people are still the problem? Also, to use the school shooter defender logic, doesn't the fact that ONLY 17,000 people out of 324,000,000 people( 0.01%) get murdered mean that murder really isn't something Americans shouldn't be worried about? Or is murder only a problem when black people do it?

There are multiple issues with your post.

1. "64% of murders are not committed by black people" is not what "black peoole commit 35.9% of murders" means. As pointed out, we know the race of the perpetrator in barely half of all murder cases, so from what we see they appear to commit about half the murders.

2. There are not 17,000 people annually murdered from school shootings or mass shootings in the US. That number represents gun homicides (i.e. general human death) and is mostly from suicides and accidental deaths.

3. A demographic being much more heavily involved in a crime does mean they should be analyzed more. In this case, "race-linked crime" is actually related to poverty rather than race, but the racial link appears because of the correlation between race and poverty.
 
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Lol. The chart you're basing this on is based on ACTUAL ARRESTS though. Since you aren't from America I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. America don't care what what you identify as. America invented a thing called the one drop rule that states that as long you have ONE DROP of black blood in your system, you're black. There's a reason why the nazi's studied American racism, buddy. Unknown is some version of white they can't pin down, because heaven forbid we amp up the white numbers.

Do you really believe that murderers are not being recorded because they are white, rather than because the murder is unsolved?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Do you really believe that murderers are not being recorded because they are white, rather than because the murder is unsolved?

What is your thoughts on certain people in Congress not wanting crime data to be collected nationally? And before you answer take a super quick look at this.

The First FBI Crime Report Issued Under Trump Is Missing A Ton Of Info

Every year, the FBI releases a report that is considered the gold standard for tracking crime statistics in the United States: the Crime in the United States report, a collection of crime statistics gathered from over 18,000 law-enforcement agencies in cities around the country. But according to an analysis by FiveThirtyEight, the 2016 Crime in the United States report — the first released under President Trump’s administration — contains close to 70 percent fewer data tables1 than the 2015 version did, a removal that could affect analysts’ understanding of crime trends in the country. The removal comes after consecutive years in which violent crime rose nationally, and it limits access to high-quality crime data that could help inform solutions.

Published under the auspices of the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, the Crime in the United States report contains national data on homicides, violent crimes, arrests, clearances and police employment that has been collected since the 1960s. The UCR’s report is an invaluable resource for researchers who track national crime trends and is a rich reference database for journalists and members of the general public who are interested in official crime statistics. Among the data missing from the 2016 report is information on arrests, the circumstances of homicides (such as the relationships between victims and perpetrators), and the only national estimate of annual gang murders.

The data missing from the report is mostly about arrests and homicides. There were 51 tables of arrest data in the 2015 report, and there are only seven2 in the 2016 report. Data about clearance rates — essentially the percentage of crimes solved — was covered in four tables in 2015 but just one in 2016. The expanded offense data — information collected by the FBI beyond the number of crimes committed, such as the type of weapon used or the location of a crimes — went from 23 tables in 2015 to 6 in 2016.

There were 15 tables of murder data in 2015, but in 2016 there were only a few tables offering expanded insights on homicides. The expanded homicide data from 2016 doesn’t include statistics on the relationship between victims and offenders; victims’ and offenders’ age, sex, race or ethnicity; or what weapons were used in different circumstances. Practically speaking, that means that researchers can no longer easily identify the number of children under the age of 18 murdered by firearm in a given year. Additionally, data tables used to identify the number of women murdered by their partners are similarly no longer available.

The removal of this expanded homicide information is not acknowledged in the report. Also, the FBI’s 2016 definition of expanded homicide data, which is identical to the one from 2015, says that the agency collects “supplementary homicide data that provide the age, sex, race, and ethnicity of the murder victim and offender; the type of weapon used; the relationship of the victim to the offender; and the circumstance surrounding the incident. Statistics gleaned from these supplemental data are provided in this section.” This suggests that murder circumstance data will be provided, though none is.​

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-issued-under-trump-is-missing-a-ton-of-info/


The sad part is 4 years from now people on Internet Forums and social media will have zero idea that the numbers they are comparing are flawed due to this change and lack of information.
 
What is your thoughts on certain people in Congress not wanting crime data to be collected nationally? And before you answer take a super quick look at this.

The First FBI Crime Report Issued Under Trump Is Missing A Ton Of Info

Every year, the FBI releases a report that is considered the gold standard for tracking crime statistics in the United States: the Crime in the United States report, a collection of crime statistics gathered from over 18,000 law-enforcement agencies in cities around the country. But according to an analysis by FiveThirtyEight, the 2016 Crime in the United States report — the first released under President Trump’s administration — contains close to 70 percent fewer data tables1 than the 2015 version did, a removal that could affect analysts’ understanding of crime trends in the country. The removal comes after consecutive years in which violent crime rose nationally, and it limits access to high-quality crime data that could help inform solutions.​
Published under the auspices of the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, the Crime in the United States report contains national data on homicides, violent crimes, arrests, clearances and police employment that has been collected since the 1960s. The UCR’s report is an invaluable resource for researchers who track national crime trends and is a rich reference database for journalists and members of the general public who are interested in official crime statistics. Among the data missing from the 2016 report is information on arrests, the circumstances of homicides (such as the relationships between victims and perpetrators), and the only national estimate of annual gang murders.​
The data missing from the report is mostly about arrests and homicides. There were 51 tables of arrest data in the 2015 report, and there are only seven2 in the 2016 report. Data about clearance rates — essentially the percentage of crimes solved — was covered in four tables in 2015 but just one in 2016. The expanded offense data — information collected by the FBI beyond the number of crimes committed, such as the type of weapon used or the location of a crimes — went from 23 tables in 2015 to 6 in 2016.​
There were 15 tables of murder data in 2015, but in 2016 there were only a few tables offering expanded insights on homicides. The expanded homicide data from 2016 doesn’t include statistics on the relationship between victims and offenders; victims’ and offenders’ age, sex, race or ethnicity; or what weapons were used in different circumstances. Practically speaking, that means that researchers can no longer easily identify the number of children under the age of 18 murdered by firearm in a given year. Additionally, data tables used to identify the number of women murdered by their partners are similarly no longer available.​
The removal of this expanded homicide information is not acknowledged in the report. Also, the FBI’s 2016 definition of expanded homicide data, which is identical to the one from 2015, says that the agency collects “supplementary homicide data that provide the age, sex, race, and ethnicity of the murder victim and offender; the type of weapon used; the relationship of the victim to the offender; and the circumstance surrounding the incident. Statistics gleaned from these supplemental data are provided in this section.” This suggests that murder circumstance data will be provided, though none is.​

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-issued-under-trump-is-missing-a-ton-of-info/


The sad part is 4 years from now people on Internet Forums and social media will have zero idea that the numbers they are comparing are flawed due to this change and lack of information.

That's a recent change that has no impact on the previous mentioned statistics, though. In fact, you would not be able to create any race-based statistic from those reports.
 

Dunki

Member
I'm not hurt because I know black people and our culture isn't causing those stats. The evil intent that I was talking about is white people not trusting black people for centuries before those homicide stats even existed. We've never been trusted. White people didn't even trust us to drink out of their water fountains or eat hamburgers and drink sodas with them.

Why should I believe that white people will honestly trust black people in the future if those stats change?
But things have changed or? And to change these statistics or better the cause of these you also need to find the cause. Do I believe that black people for example are more violent than white people? NO of course not but I also believe that these statistics can be changed and also its perception when we are fighting the causes. Poverty, education, giving black children a future and fighting gang criminality etc. But to be able to recognize it we need be able to talk about it like we do right now. Try this at a left University right now. You just can not anymore. This is also what Peterson is talking about.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But things have changed or? And to change these statistics or better the cause of these you also need to find the cause. Do I believe that black people for example are more violent than white people? NO of course not but I also believe that these statistics can be changed and also its perception when we are fighting the causes. Poverty, education, giving black children a future and fighting gang criminality etc. But to be able to recognize it we need be able to talk about it like we do right now. Try this at a left University right now. You just can not anymore. This is also what Peterson is talking about.

Accept they do talk about this at so-called left universities right now. They've been doing it for decades. It's one of the reasons that crime has fallen so much in these inner cities within the last 25 years. They probably come to different conclusions for the cause than Peterson does though I'm guessing.
 
History says that this is a lie! The perception started out with evil intent and it's never changed much. So why should I believe it will change in the future?

I'm very curious when someone presents an absolute statement on "history" as an argumentative agent. A lot of the times perceptions start out from misunderstood positions of superiority, a sort of self-perceived benevolence and sympathy for people perceived as lesser than you. A good example of this is missionary work and a nation's dealing with countries or ethnic groups that has had less technological development. This isn't exclusive to those of a darker skin complexion and it can be observed amongst the Sami population in Northern Europe, or more precisely the Norwegian Sami. In the case of Samis, there's a lot of sources showing that one can't just attribute to "evil intent" in the perception of them. I can probably bring up scans of official archive documents, literature and translations, as I've got most of it in my various research files. Malice is generally not the initial cause of a lot of the perceptions, but rather the gulf between groups/nations. The hubris of a self-confident technologically advanced nation in facing states/groups with customs that in their context is ludicrous or things caused by being on the unfortunate end of technological development. Malice does more tend to show in execution from my experience with persecutions like Sami people and witch trials.

I would like to point out how your perspective is a fatalistic and reductionist approach to how perceptions and ideas of prejudice work. One runs the danger of running long diachronic lines of something one describes as an ahistorical phenomenon, which leads into a circular pattern that reinforces the initial cause. If we can't accept that things can manifest different from their origins, then that's tantamount to saying that origin will decide everything and would mean for a lot of people to embrace a fatalistic approach to our society itself. It would be like dooming a child of a criminal to repeat the traits of the father, while it's more complicated and the genealogy of what traits continue isn't something that's as clear. Ideas, our perception of concepts, language, it's all malleable, so there's no guarantee that one's origin preludes as an ahistorical phenomenon for future developments. It'd be better to describe it as a force with a sort of gravitational pull, where like socioeconomic factors, a phenomenon can be hard to change the path of, but various factors can end up changing our perspectives or changing the orbit. That's a perspective that can be had, that could reinforce your perception, but doesn't make blatant statements on the nature of history and dooming history to some fatalistic hysteria.

Funny enough history as an argumentative device is the kind of thing that reinforces the origins of prejudices, with sense of superiority over being technologically more advanced than others, being kind of like an ipse dixit, argumenting on realities as set. As Koselleck notes in Historia magistra vitae, history has been viewed as a school one can be wise in with no risk of injury. You do have something like hegelian dialectic, in the teleological sense, but that's areas where it requires a bit of conceit and hubris to tread, like in Francis Fukuyama's infamous 1992 book The End of History and the Last Man. I always chuckle at the "Last Man" bit, due to the Nietzschean "Last Man" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm very curious when someone presents an absolute statement on "history" as an argumentative agent. A lot of the times perceptions start out from misunderstood positions of superiority, a sort of self-perceived benevolence and sympathy for people perceived as lesser than you. A good example of this is missionary work and a nation's dealing with countries or ethnic groups that has had less technological development. This isn't exclusive to those of a darker skin complexion and it can be observed amongst the Sami population in Northern Europe, or more precisely the Norwegian Sami. In the case of Samis, there's a lot of sources showing that one can't just attribute to "evil intent" in the perception of them. I can probably bring up scans of official archive documents, literature and translations, as I've got most of it in my various research files. Malice is generally not the initial cause of a lot of the perceptions, but rather the gulf between groups/nations. The hubris of a self-confident technologically advanced nation in facing states/groups with customs that in their context is ludicrous or things caused by being on the unfortunate end of technological development. Malice does more tend to show in execution from my experience with persecutions like Sami people and witch trials.

I would like to point out how your perspective is a fatalistic and reductionist approach to how perceptions and ideas of prejudice work. One runs the danger of running long diachronic lines of something one describes as an ahistorical phenomenon, which leads into a circular pattern that reinforces the initial cause. If we can't accept that things can manifest different from their origins, then that's tantamount to saying that origin will decide everything and would mean for a lot of people to embrace a fatalistic approach to our society itself. It would be like dooming a child of a criminal to repeat the traits of the father, while it's more complicated and the genealogy of what traits continue isn't something that's as clear. Ideas, our perception of concepts, language, it's all malleable, so there's no guarantee that one's origin preludes as an ahistorical phenomenon for future developments. It'd be better to describe it as a force with a sort of gravitational pull, where like socioeconomic factors, a phenomenon can be hard to change the path of, but various factors can end up changing our perspectives or changing the orbit. That's a perspective that can be had, that could reinforce your perception, but doesn't make blatant statements on the nature of history and dooming history to some fatalistic hysteria.

Funny enough history as an argumentative device is the kind of thing that reinforces the origins of prejudices, with sense of superiority over being technologically more advanced than others, being kind of like an ipse dixit, argumenting on realities as set. As Koselleck notes in Historia magistra vitae, history has been viewed as a school one can be wise in with no risk of injury. You do have something like hegelian dialectic, in the teleological sense, but that's areas where it requires a bit of conceit and hubris to tread, like in Francis Fukuyama's infamous 1992 book The End of History and the Last Man. I always chuckle at the "Last Man" bit, due to the Nietzschean "Last Man" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

I understood everything you typed and in general I agree that what you said as it's truth. But in the case of American history things didn't quite work out that sameway. I'd say that what you typed sorta explains how the migraters from Europe treated Natives here in the 1600s. Then greed kicked in and made matter worse for those Natives.

But with Africans and their later generations born in America, the evils that were done didn't have much to do with "misunderstood positions of superiority, a sort of self-perceived benevolence and sympathy for people perceived as lesser than you" as you put it. If it was just that then those people wouldn't have made it illegal in the 1600s and 1700s to teach a slave how to read. In the 1900s it wouldn't have been illegal for a black person to marry a white person. They wouldn't have created black codes laws after the Civil War to suppress the freedom, liberty, and happiness of black people.

None of that has to do with "the gulf between groups/nations or the hubris of a self-confident technologically advanced nation in facing states/groups with customs that in their context is ludicrous or things caused by being on the unfortunate end of technological development." Black people went from being slaves to being inventors in the matter of a decade. From Lewis Latimer's (his parents were runaway slaves) help co-creating the invention of the light bulb (1880s), to Elijah McCoy's (his parents were also run-away slaves ) invention of the lubricating cup for trains(1872) and he also invented and patented the lawn sprinkler(1920s). The phrase "The Real McCoy" was literally made because of this black man and it described how good his invention was. To Garret Morgan who would create the first ever gas mask in 1912. Unfortunately after 5 or so years when police and fire departments found out that the gas mask was invented by a black man, some of those departments refused to use them. But the US Army decided to use them in World War 1 and that changed history. To Daniel Williams who was the first human ever to perform open heart surgery. He did this in 1893!

Notice how much black Americans changed the country, yet still didn't have basic rights in America. There are so many more people I could use as an example too. The average white person of that day didn't care how smart, noble, or advanced technologically you were. If you were black, you were viewed darn near equal to an animal.
 
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Guys....I hate to be "that guy" but what the hell has the entire last page on this thread even been about? And in what way does it relate to a discussion on Political Correctness by various real world personalities?

I understand that conversations and contexts are fluid and can be shaped by the flow of comments within the conversation but I think that almost everything that has been discussed on the entire last page is literally so far away from the topic of discussion that we might as well be having an entirely different conversation.

That is not to say that the conversation we are having right now has no merit or worth, but just that it is wildly off topic to the point of almost being an entirely different thread.

Would anyone like to steer the conversation back on topic to the content of this particular debate with these participants or at the very least a wider discussion about the pros and cons of Political Correctness? I'm not a mod or trying to tell people how to post but I just feel like we've veered so far off topic and people are having some sort of point scoring exercise against a meta narrative or ideological chess board that for those of us not entrenched in the "us vs them" mindset it is very tiresome to read.
 
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Papa

Banned
Just like how the 77% gender pay gap shrinks to 92-95% once you introduce rigorous normalization of the data, a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same. In the end, it's mostly on the margins. It's difficult for me to produce any sort of outrage over them.

Can you show me where men’s rights statistics have been debunked like the wage gap?
 
I understood everything you typed and in general I agree that what you said as it's truth. But in the case of American history things didn't quite work out that sameway. I'd say that what you typed sorta explains how the migraters from Europe treated Natives here in the 1600s. Then greed kicked in and made matter worse for those Natives.

Sami and Native Americans are a good comparison (though Sami aren't necessarily natives, and there's a long debate about that), though I'm unsure of how nomadic the various tribes were. However, the thought about african slaves exceptionality to this is something I'm highly suspicious of (not that it's not necessarily so, as exceptional phenomenon are also parts of history, but exceptionality in human behavior is problematic unless researched at its core). First of all, to use American history would fail to understand "the origin", which would be the circumstances of slave trade in Africa. If you view it in that context, in pre-enlightenment era, it becomes far more closer to the concept of a sense of superiority and it becomes more an issue of stratification. Such division might further evolve by being reinforced by group . The economic incentive in the mind of slave owners further reinforces the need of division. This doesn't however magically translate afterwards, unless we want to believe in a fatalistic "America will always be inherently racist". Then there's modernity and the focus on eugenics that arose and which carries the concept of "hereditary sin".

But with Africans and their later generations born in America, the evils that were done didn't have much to do with "misunderstood positions of superiority, a sort of self-perceived benevolence and sympathy for people perceived as lesser than you" as you put it. If it was just that then those people wouldn't have made it illegal in the 1600s and 1700s to teach a slave how to read. In the 1900s it wouldn't have been illegal for a black person to marry a white person. They wouldn't have created black codes laws after the Civil War to suppress the freedom, liberty, and happiness of black people.

Again, drawing lines between centuries is a dangerous thing, it's causally approaching maximal uncertainty, treating an object as if completely disclosed from numerous historical influences and as if historical context just transfers over perfectly.
"If this ... then you wouldn't see this in xth century and this in yth century" is not a good way of taking a complex origin of a phenomenon of prejudice and trying to disprove it. The effect doesn't necessarily have a symmetrical relation with cause. Just as the concept of white people and "colored people" developed, it can also be undone, by dissolution of the categories and evolving beyond them. Of course, this isn't something that just happens, as what divides us also strengthen us. (i.e. dividing people by the color of their skin, reinforces the unity and the sense of agency in regards to the color of your skin) There's no quick solutions and from my experience things are better with dialogue and trying to tear down walls and not fall into our respective categories.

None of that has to do with "the gulf between groups/nations or the hubris of a self-confident technologically advanced nation in facing states/groups with customs that in their context is ludicrous or things caused by being on the unfortunate end of technological development." Black people went from being slaves to being inventors in the matter of a decade. From Lewis Latimer's (his parents were runaway slaves) help co-creating the invention of the light bulb (1880s), to Elijah McCoy's (his parents were also run-away slaves ) invention of the lubricating cup for trains(1872) and he also invented and patented the lawn sprinkler(1920s). The phrase "The Real McCoy" was literally made because of this black man and it described how good his invention was. To Garret Morgan who would create the first ever gas mask in 1912. Unfortunately after 5 or so years when police and fire departments found out that the gas mask was invented by a black man, some of those departments refused to use them. But the US Army decided to use them in World War 1 and that changed history. To Daniel Williams who was the first human ever to perform open heart surgery. He did this in 1893!

In your historical synthesis, you're thinking too loosely about prejudice being driven by a very reductionistic causal chain. When reinforced with the concept of earlier technological prowess, an outward identity marker, economic benefits and a concept of exceptionality, the development of refusing the validity of black people's accomplishments becomes quite a plausible scenario. You're not really excluding the premise with your examples. Unless you want to say "black people have been mistreated", which you'll find very few people objecting to. Your examples do however also provide that things aren't as black and white, as many of the feats are examples of progress.
Btw, some of your examples are obvious misrepresentations, especially the last one, after researching it a bit. They are some impressive feats, one doesn't need to misrepresent them.

Notice how much black Americans changed the country, yet still didn't have basic rights in America. There are so many more people I could use as an example too. The average white person of that day didn't care how smart, noble, or advanced technologically you were. If you were black, you were viewed darn near equal to an animal.

Treating the "average white" as a group is just as disingenuous as treating the "average black" as a group. Your examples can't actually conclude from the reception to the concept of an "average white" and there's numerous problems with not attempting to understand the various perspectives of white americans leading to their view of black americans. If we care about the subject of socioeconomic factors leading to skewing a lot of statistics, then it doesn't help to dismiss the historical context of the white americans' perspectives and how divided their perspectives were.

A problem with what you've been proposing is that it drives by the same fatalism that drove a lot of the perspectives on black people, namely the perspective of people technologically behind being "inherently backwards" or "losers of history" (I have a big problem with the concept of a "right side of history" and its teleological nonsense). The thought that something is inherently transferred in its essence over time. That's why I'm skeptical of the concept of some perceived evil intent (which I've not seen any great evidence for and treads on the problematic grounds of "initial cause") somehow means that is the essence of a phenomenon in the future. It fails in most analogies as a concept, even in binary examples, "the door at my parents' house has always been open, why should I believe it would change in the future?" (concluding that a phenomenon is ahistorical and static, when things do indeed change and urbanization, changes in population, prejudice, increased crime levels and sense of community might make your parents lock their doors) Most of my objection is, however, to the brazen use of "History says this is a lie", which I can't stand behind. History is a revolving door, you think you've got it and then the damn door smacks you in the ass. When I write my research, I try to facilitate numerous explanations and debunk them according to evidence, but I might be disproven shortly after. Or I might face a case of someone taking a different perspective, which becomes more about arguing on which perspective fits best to a certain topic being explored, there might be methodical and theoretical approaches that I might disagree with, but which I'll also have to understand the merits of.

I do mostly history on minorities and persecution, in a European perspective, but I might consider to do some larger synthesis, grabbing in a wider historiography and testing various perspectives. I've already been thinking to do some work on missionaries, racism and feminism, but a part of this sounded interesting. A part of me wants to do something akin to Braudel's La Méditerranée or perhaps going fictional with a historical basis. My work is mostly 19th and 20th century history, so a larger time frame might be interesting to catch the longue durée. Might quit my teacher job and go for my doctorate if I find some fertile ground.
 

TrainedRage

Banned
Just want to say that the conversation between RokkanStoned RokkanStoned , mckmas8808 mckmas8808 and strange headache strange headache
has been some really good reading.

No joke.

You guys rock at having these super informative 'debate' back and forth's. Not just in this topic but as I have noticed in general.
Im actually learning about valid opinions and getting some nice historical context that I would not have know about if you guys weren't taking this seriously.
Just saying.... good stuff, this is why I love GAF!
:)
 
Can you show me where men’s rights statistics have been debunked like the wage gap?

To be blunt - I kind of don't want to. I felt a bit a bit guilty commenting on it at all because I consider if off-topic and it detracts from otherwise good commentary going on elsewhere in the thread. I'll try and keep the response to only one post. If you want to discuss specific statistics, it might be best to start a new thread.

Just as a bit of rhetorical advice: Debunk is a not a great word. Right from the off-set it implies there's an ideological bias to discrediting instead of simply evaluating the evidence and coming to a parsimonious conclusion. It's showing all of your cards right away.

The gender pay gap has not been "debunked" - it's a reasonable assessment that the average woman makes less than the average man; however, the more important question is to what degree this difference is explained by self-selective factors (choosing jobs that pay less, choosing to work less hours, etc.) vs. completely out of the woman's control (e.g., two lawyers working at the same firm for the same amount of time with the same work evaluation, and so on, making differences in pay). So as more particular research is done, significant context has been added.

I'm not going to go through every single MRA-endorsed statistic, but we can review the claims about custody as an example of how context can change things. It's true women do get custody more often. But this is often self-selective through arbitration; the idea that every divorce ends up on Judge Judy is a bit of a myth. Most families settle through arbitration and the mother is granted custody under amicable conditions (third-party mediation is not usually necessary). Only a small fraction of custody battles go to court and only about half of them are actually completed by litigation; when the custody is contested, men actually win 2/3 of the time [I'm having some trouble verifying this particular number, so take it with a grain of salt; it's in a $250 textbook I'm not exactly interested in buying so I can review the entire context of the statistic; note: see edit below]. This doesn't mean that there's not a hypothetical scenario where a man could be discriminated against in custody hearings, only that adding context significantly softens the claim of a systematic bias on the level of oppression; the same as with the gender pay gap. From the reading I've done, the primary factor about who gets discriminated against with custody tends to be identical to a lot of other legal battles - the poorer parent loses. Things have also become more balanced over the time, this has more to do with women entering the work force and courts recognizing that women can and should pay child support in certain circumstances, and shared custody has increased while sole custody on the part of the woman has decreased. This progress has nothing to do with the recent pop-up of MRA advocacy groups - the trend began decades ago.

Look, if you believe men are discriminated against and you wake up every morning motivated to end that discrimination, by all means, you do you. I'm also not interested in any kind of crusade to make the claim men do not experience discrimination - I have too many male nurse friends that work in labor and delivery and male OBGYNs to deny that. I'm simply making a case for why I can review the list of MRA grievances and still walk away without much concern that I am personally being discriminated against based on my gender.

edit: spelling

edit 2: Regarding the claim about the men winning 2/3 of the time: While there are 2 studies that demonstrate this, it's controversial because the studies only reviewed particular court systems (LA and Massachusetts), whereas a more comprehensive review found the rate is about 50/50 for both sexes through most the past century in the US, which itself is somewhat remarkable given how wildly the rhetoric has swung over the decades: https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3106&context=facpubs - have fun, it's quite the page-turner.
 
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Papa

Banned
To be blunt - I kind of don't want to. I felt a bit a bit guilty commenting on it at all because I consider if off-topic and it detracts from otherwise good commentary going on elsewhere in the thread. I'll try and keep the response to only one post. If you want to discuss specific statistics, it might be best to start a new thread.

Just as a bit of rhetorical advise: Debunk is a not a great word. Right from the off-set it implies there's an ideological bias to discrediting instead of simply evaluating the evidence and coming to a parsimonious conclusion. It's showing all of your cards right away.

The gender pay gap has not been "debunked" - it's a reasonable assessment that the average woman makes less than the average man; however, the more important question is to what degree this difference is explained by self-selective factors (choosing jobs that pay less, choosing to work less hours, etc.) vs. completely out of the woman's control (e.g., two lawyers working at the same firm for the same amount of time with the same work evaluation, and so on, making differences in pay). So as more particular research is done, significant context has been added.

I'm not going to go through every single MRA-endorsed statistic, but we can review the claims about custody as an example of how context can change things. It's true women do get custody more often. But this is often self-selective through arbitration; the idea that every divorce ends up on Judge Judy is a bit of a myth. Most families settle through arbitration and the mother is granted custody under amicable conditions (third-party mediation is not usually necessary). Only a small fraction of custody battles go to court and only about half of them are actually completed by litigation; when the custody is contested, men actually win 2/3 of the time [I'm having some trouble verifying this particular number, so take it with a grain of salt]. This doesn't mean that there's not a hypothetical scenario where a man could be discriminated against in custody hearings, only that adding context significantly softens the claim of a systematic bias on the level of oppression; the same as with the gender pay gap. From the reading I've done, the primary factor about who gets discriminated against with custody tends to be identical to a lot of other legal battles - the poorer parent loses. Things have also become more balanced over the time, this has more to do with women entering the work force and courts recognizing that women can and should pay child support in certain circumstances, and shared custody has increased while sole custody on the part of the woman has decreased. This progress has nothing to do with the recent pop-up of MRA advocacy groups - the trend began decades ago.

Look, if you believe men are discriminated against and you wake up every morning motivated to end that discrimination, by all means, you do you. I'm also not interested in any kind of crusade to make the claim men do not experience discrimination - I have too many male nurse friends that work in labor and delivery and male OBGYNs to deny that. I'm simply making a case for why I can review the list of MRA grievances and still walk away without much concern that I am personally being discriminated against based on my gender.

If you're going to make a broad generalisation like "a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same", you should probably back it up with evidence that said statistics are flawed, otherwise it seems as though you're making a false equivalence. I'm not taking an ideological position; I simply want you to show me how they are flawed, just as there are numerous studies readily available showing how the gender pay gap statistic is flawed (if not an outright lie).

There's nothing wrong with the word "debunk" in this context, and the gender pay gap as it is has been presented by feminists including Obama has been thoroughly debunked. I can only assume you've presented your own personal definition of "debunk" in order to paint me as some kind of men's rights ideologue.

Your discussion of the family court situation is interesting and I would like to see where this 2/3 number comes from. I know you said you are having trouble verifying it and to take it with a grain of salt, but if this is the case, you probably shouldn't have put it out there at all.
 
If you're going to make a broad generalisation like "a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same", you should probably back it up with evidence that said statistics are flawed, otherwise it seems as though you're making a false equivalence. I'm not taking an ideological position; I simply want you to show me how they are flawed, just as there are numerous studies readily available showing how the gender pay gap statistic is flawed (if not an outright lie).

There's nothing wrong with the word "debunk" in this context, and the gender pay gap as it is has been presented by feminists including Obama has been thoroughly debunked. I can only assume you've presented your own personal definition of "debunk" in order to paint me as some kind of men's rights ideologue.

Your discussion of the family court situation is interesting and I would like to see where this 2/3 number comes from. I know you said you are having trouble verifying it and to take it with a grain of salt, but if this is the case, you probably shouldn't have put it out there at all.

All of the assertions made about male discrimination in this thread were also provided without any actual evidence. It's a bit hard for me to provide counter-evidence if there's no evidence-based statement in the first place. I'm a fan of Hitchens - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

If you're interested in this topic, I stand by my original statement: Make a thread and have a debate.
 

Papa

Banned
All of the assertions made about male discrimination in this thread were also provided without any actual evidence. It's a bit hard for me to provide counter-evidence if there's no evidence-based statement in the first place. I'm a fan of Hitchens - that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

If you're interested in this topic, I stand by my original statement: Make a thread and have a debate.

You didn't just dismiss them in the Hitchens sense, which would be ignoring them; you claimed that they end up being the same as the gender pay gap once you normalise the data:

"Just like how the 77% gender pay gap shrinks to 92-95% once you introduce rigorous normalization of the data, a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same. In the end, it's mostly on the margins. It's difficult for me to produce any sort of outrage over them. "

That's an inference, not a dismissal. Keep directing me to make a new thread all you like - you made the original assertion in this thread, not me. It's obvious that all you're trying to do is drop your ink and swim away.
 
You didn't just dismiss them in the Hitchens sense, which would be ignoring them; you claimed that they end up being the same as the gender pay gap once you normalise the data:

"Just like how the 77% gender pay gap shrinks to 92-95% once you introduce rigorous normalization of the data, a lot of the "oh woe is me" statistics MRAs use to show how men are discriminated against end up being the same. In the end, it's mostly on the margins. It's difficult for me to produce any sort of outrage over them. "

That's an inference, not a dismissal. Keep directing me to make a new thread all you like - you made the original assertion in this thread, not me. It's obvious that all you're trying to do is drop your ink and swim away.

I addressed your concern by providing a particular example where exactly that happens. In the instance of child custody, when you put the data under a microscope, the claim for discrimination against men shrinks and other factors become much more predictive of outcomes.

If you want me to review every. single. assertion. of MRA apologism, then I have no problem conceding to you - I simply don't have the energy, interest, or time. You win: I admit my generalization was my personal opinion based upon reading third-party analysis that have addressed such claims over the years and not necessarily informed exclusively by systematic reviews in the academic literature on each particular subject.
 
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I addressed your concern by providing a particular example where exactly that happens. In the instance of child custody, when you put the data under a microscope, the claim for discrimination against men shrinks and other factors become much more predictive of outcomes.

If you want me to review every. single. assertion. of MRA apologism, then I have no problem conceding to you - I simply don't have the energy, interest, or time. You win: I admit my generalization was my personal opinion based upon reading third-party analysis that have addressed such claims over the years and not necessarily informed exclusively by systematic reviews in the academic literature on each particular subject.
I have to agree with matt404au here. If somebody says men are discriminated without providing proof, you can ignore that statement because proof hasn't been provided. But that doesn't mean you can state the opposite without backing it up.
 
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Papa

Banned
I addressed your concern by providing a particular example where exactly that happens. In the instance of child custody, when you put the data under a microscope, the claim for discrimination against men shrinks and other factors become much more predictive of outcomes.

If you want me to review every. single. assertion. of MRA apologism, then I have no problem conceding to you - I simply don't have the energy, interest, or time. You win: I admit my generalization was my personal opinion based upon reading third-party analysis that have addressed such claims over the years and not necessarily informed exclusively by systematic reviews in the academic literature on each particular subject.

But in that example you even said that you couldn't (wouldn't?) verify the number you proposed.

I'm not asking you to review every MRA assertion; I'm suggesting that if you can't prove something, don't assert it as fact. That seems to be in the spirit of Hitchens, no?

Anyway, I think we're both tired of this so let's call it a draw.
 
But in that example you even said that you couldn't (wouldn't?) verify the number you proposed.

I'm not asking you to review every MRA assertion; I'm suggesting that if you can't prove something, don't assert it as fact. That seems to be in the spirit of Hitchens, no?

Anyway, I think we're both tired of this so let's call it a draw.

Recheck the post - I finally found a pdf of the document I was referencing that was free-to-access and so was more comfortable adding it as a citation. It's not perfect, but none of this data is.

I agree, I wasn't meaning to sound sarcastic - I truly concede the generalization wasn't fair, I should have explicitly stuck to the custody issue as that's one I'm somewhat familiar with. Though I learned more about child custody then I did at the start so it was somewhat educational re-reviewing some of this.
 
Just want to say that the conversation between RokkanStoned RokkanStoned , mckmas8808 mckmas8808 and strange headache strange headache
has been some really good reading.

No joke.

You guys rock at having these super informative 'debate' back and forth's. Not just in this topic but as I have noticed in general.
Im actually learning about valid opinions and getting some nice historical context that I would not have know about if you guys weren't taking this seriously.
Just saying.... good stuff, this is why I love GAF!
:)
This is why I used to come to GAF.
 

luigimario

Banned
As I said before America already has a huge gun problem and it needs to be dealt with.

No I keep screaming that 13% of the people are responsible for over 50% of the overall homocides. This is a stat you can not just ignore because it may reveal harsh realities to you. This is a stat we need to keep reducing nothing else. If these stats change the perception will change as well.

Also I always praise US Muslims for being so liberal and moderate and I wish the majority would be like that. Sadly it is a very small minority. I think linked the pew research about the beliefs of Islamic people more than once already. I live in Germany and here it is a total different picture in which children getting more and more radicalized by mosques finannced through Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc, Integration has utterly failed here. European Muslims can not compared to US Muslims because as I said before they are getting brainwashed and radicalized in our mosques,.

Do you think it is ok that Muslim children threaten Jewisch children and also non Muslims with cutting of their heads? I do not think so. They are in Elementary school for fucks sake.

But this goes pretty offtopic now. Only similarity is that we need to be able to speak about these statistics and issues. By silencing people it will not solve the problem but hide it until it is really too late.

Hahaha wow! I think you will find children of all ages threaten other children with violence. I think youre problem is you try to make it sound like these things happen with exclusively muslim children or people when in reality, its universal.
 

Dunki

Member
Hahaha wow! I think you will find children of all ages threaten other children with violence. I think youre problem is you try to make it sound like these things happen with exclusively muslim children or people when in reality, its universal.
There is a difference when elementary school children threaten Jewish children not only with weapons but also with the intention to cut off their heads because they are not Muslims or especially because they are Jews.

I can not believe that people actually to downplay this when these children not only threaten other people but also try to tell girls what they allowed to wear and what not. ISLAM has nothing to do in schools outside of maybe some class but thats about it. Integration has clearly failed here in Germany and we nee to react here.
 
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luigimario

Banned
There is a difference when elementary school children threaten Jewish children not only with weapons but also with the intention to cut off their heads because they are not Muslims or especially because they are Jews.

I can not believe that people actually to downplay this when these children not only threaten other people but also try to tell girls what they allowed to wear and what not. ISLAM has nothing to do in schools outside of maybe some class but thats about it. Integration has clearly failed here in Germany and we nee to react here.

If I was to take only the information youre providing, it seems like not only are all muslims kids in Germany complete assholes, but ONLY muslim kids in Germany are complete assholes. Do you see what I'm trying to say? You don't think you get German kids threatening non-german kids in other equally disgusting violent ways?
 

Dunki

Member
If I was to take only the information youre providing, it seems like not only are all muslims kids in Germany complete assholes, but ONLY muslim kids in Germany are complete assholes. Do you see what I'm trying to say? You don't think you get German kids threatening non-german kids in other equally disgusting violent ways?
Its not all why would you even think this but there is a huge concerning raise of these incidents right now in Germany. And it is not because Muslim kids are evil but because they are getting radicalized in radical mosques financed by Turkey, co. We have now schools with 80-90% immigration percenttages and there Islam is a huge topic not only in the school but also the schoolyard.

Also there is a huge differences between kids being assholes bullying etc and kids actually threaten to kill them even using a gun in some cases but more with knifes in fucking elementary school. This is a issue that needs to be handled and just like Peterson I do not believe that it will solve itself by not be able to talk about it just because it can be offensive to some people
 

luigimario

Banned
Its not all why would you even think this but there is a huge concerning raise of these incidents right now in Germany. And it is not because Muslim kids are evil but because they are getting radicalized in radical mosques financed by Turkey, co. We have now schools with 80-90% immigration percenttages and there Islam is a huge topic not only in the school but also the schoolyard.

Also there is a huge differences between kids being assholes bullying etc and kids actually threaten to kill them even using a gun in some cases but more with knifes in fucking elementary school. This is a issue that needs to be handled and just like Peterson I do not believe that it will solve itself by not be able to talk about it just because it can be offensive to some people

I tried searching for that, couldn't really find anything you were talking about...

Look at the USA, where you get christian kids running around and causing mass school shootings? Should we all be concerned now? Be wary of christians?
 

Dontero

Banned
Didn't like the form of debate. Needlessly complicated and frankly stupid as people had to respond to last person while completely missing big picture for most of it.

Talk should be moderated by organizer live instead of relying completely on rules.
It was particularly easy for people to skip answering troublesome questions. Only last 20 minutes of free debate was good.

Fry makes great arguments but i absolutely hate his shtick same as black pastor, they are more focused on their own personas that answering questions or formulating arguments. Why do you use jokes in serious debate ? First someone say something serious then end with a joke completely deflating his point.

While Peterson and Fry tried to tackle other side none of them really tackled core of this argument. Peterson wanted to go into source of ideology while Fry joked left and right. None of them actually used long tested valid argument such as : "You need to let people speak their mind to know them" Meaning for example, let racists say racist thing because thanks to this you will actually know who is racist, in opposite situation you as black man could work with someone who is your boss and you would never know that he doesn't give you promotion because he is actually racist. Speech is barometer where people stand their ground and let other people know what they think about. Regardless how cruel and shit their views are they need to be able to safely say them.
 

highrider

Banned
I realize you have to qualify this statement by sort of saying hey, I know we don’t have it tougher than anyone else, and yes white privilege is a real thing most majority populations enjoy. With that said, I’m really getting tired of the far left and it’s apparent blind spot for racist remarks about white people. No point in debating anyone if you’re a white male evidently, as your anger and inherent privilege makes your point of view irrelevant.
 
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