mercenar1e
Member
that's true for mostly every election.
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Petition for 2nd referendum hits 2.7M signatures - and why it isn't pointless
- Thread starter Zakalwe
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that's true for mostly every election.
The leave side would have acted the exact same way, Farage said it himself.
Pretty much this, the majority of people are too stupid to know what they want. I mean, Recall that thanks to first past the post, we all had to suffer under a Stephen Harper majority for a disgusting amount of time. Only after the near collapse of the country did enough people grow a brain and re-elect the liberals.
I mean honestly, it does sound fascist to prefer that a good government stay in power for good , I mean that's almost like a textbook definition but seriously ? when the people are too stupid to realize when changing things will only make everything worse ? they should be ignored.
This is true, but people would also be calling Farage out for such behavior. His comment about 52-48 not being good enough was obviously wrong.
And every remain voter would be saying the same thing exit voters are now "you had your vote" "this IS democracy" etc etc
I linked to a Facebook group above title Vote Leave. 500k followers. The banner of the group was the lading argument "more money for the NHS".
The majority of posts were blaming immigration as their primary reason.
Both of these opinions were founded on hyperbole and lies. And you can find evidence of this all over the Internet. The effect it had on the outcome is significant.
There is turmoil. The half that voted to stay are equal parts angry and terrified. Many are pushing for some kind of reform. Many are calling for a re-vote.
And many of the Leave voters are expressing their regret for a variety of reasons including the fact they were lied to.
The turmoil exists and is a massive reason why a second vote should take place.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
GAF has been a bit of a shitshow when it comes to this topic.
Maybe the petition shouldn't be about a second referendum but about the parliament considering the Brexit again and making the final decision? The referendum outcome was very close and not legally binding to begin with and after the shock and implications that have now arisen, like possibly breaking up the UK, they really should think this over. Isn't that their sole job, making the right decisions for the country?
Night Angel
Member
Do people who bemoan the average voter somehow think that Leave voters were all uninformed morons and Remain voters were above the average? That's the impression I get from this thread.
The result is the result. Bemoaning democracy because the vote didn't go your way is childish.
The result is the result. Bemoaning democracy because the vote didn't go your way is childish.
It doesn't sound fascist, it is fascist. You are advocating for totalitarian dictatorships.
Uninformed, maybe not. Misinformed? Definitely considering the Brexiters have reneged on a number of the biggest aspects of their campaign. They straight up lied.
TheChocolateWar
Member
That is the impression I am getting. "No sane voter could have possibly decided contrary to my point of view had they done any kind of research on the matter!" It is a poisonous philosophy of Us V. Them that will never accomplish anything politically other than further polarizing the two sides of the debate.
Night Angel
Member
But I know what people need better than anyone so it's in their own interests to let me rule as I please.
Nexus Zero
Member
I don't agree with having a new referendum but I don't respect the views of England as far as they affect Scotland and London and I think we're right to kick off about this.
His Majesty
Banned
You can look at this from another angle. The older generation voted to join Union in 1975. Decades later they are unhappy with what the EU has brought them and they want out. They are the only generation which has lived in the United Kingdom before and after joining the European Union. I think that gives them a unique insight that the younger generation lacks.
So I don't think it is fair to criticise the voting rights of one generation to another.
Yeah that kind of condensending attitude is doing no favour to their cause.
Paracelsus
Member
Given the situation what you said could fit Poe's Law just fine.
BumblebeeCody
Member
Yeah but they fought hard so...
No, most of us remain voters acknowledge that the EU isn't perfect and could do with reforming from the inside, but the leave vote has stopped us from being in a strong negotiation position. The vote should have been a measure of displeasure with the EU, not an outright two sided basic statement of leave or stay. UK politicians have been lying to us for years about who is responsible for the problems that everyday people deal with, misdirecting flack from them and bankers onto the EU. Now, it's flung back in their faces and the country is closer to a state of ruin.
The Donnie Darko 'Life Line' scene very much applies here.
BossDarkseid
Member
With this referendum though it's not quite as binary as you suggest but I get your point. I don't think it's really pointless to have the petition or to have a debate in parliament (if it gets over 2 mil they'd be stupid to not debate it) but even if they don't ignore the result or have another referendum - and in the future they should really set up something like a two thirds majority on at least a 75% turnout - it's pretty clear a lot of people are unhappy so...debates.
I think a referendum for this sort of decision is so stupid because the ramifications will last and effect people well beyond the scope of people who are actually eligible to vote in it, so...in that sense a debate at least would be good.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
It added over 500k in the past few hours. This has more legs than a Kickstarter.
Oh I know this, I was just saying that I think the younger generation should be able to choose what happens. Polls indicate that more old people voted for out. Polls also indicate that the leave voters did so for the promises made about NHS and immigration. For this reason I think now people understand that it's all lies and deceit, they should vote again.
Older people voted to be against our government they didn't vote because they don't like the EU. It's fucking idiotic. Immigration will continue to be the same and the NHS is more than fucked now anyway. They voted for fuck all.
Edit: The amount of people on social media saying "Shit, I'd change my vote now" is unreal. They were clearly uninformed and didn't think it through properly.
There's no denying the data.
It's been proven that there are more educated people on the Remain side (there's a graph floating round, I'll post when I'm home) and it's been proven that many of the Leave campaign's leading arguments were either outright false (NHS funding) or extremely hyperbolic (Immigration).
Now, of course there were educated people on the Leave side who based there votes on carefully researched facts, but there's no denying the large (enough to tip the win) amount of Leave voters cast the way they did based on false claims.
There is disparity here.
The main argument against this petition that I just don't get is the "sure, let's just have a petition for every little thing!"
This isn't naming a post office, this is leaving the goddamn EU. I don't begrudge some UK'ers wanting a revote to make 100% that's what the people want.
This isn't naming a post office, this is leaving the goddamn EU. I don't begrudge some UK'ers wanting a revote to make 100% that's what the people want.
MrS
Banned
B-b-b-u-t they r deiciding ma futur 4 me
Everybody knew this was their one chance to vote on our future in the EU. It was stated MANY times. You didn't vote or you now want to change your vote? Fuck you - should have got it right first time.
BossDarkseid
Member
A second one on the exit terms would be dodgy as fuck though. Once they start negotiations they get 2 years to the day. If it goes beyond that and no agreement has been reached we simply cease to be a member of the EU. Especially after the inability of the media and politicians to help educate people on the matters (tbh I do blame some people for failing to look things up but oh well) I'm not sure a referendum would eb best. I mean let's say the terms would really fuck over one aspect of society (hey we voted a Tory government in so its not like it wouldn't happen) or one...career area like Arts & Sciences (I think that is partly why a lot of students are pissed about the result because of the billions they got in funding from EU in the last decade)...
No solution will fit everyone, but it's the fact so many people seem to have been lied to or uneducated about the result that annoy people. I said to someone else that it's not a Vote Leave that's frustrating, but it's a Vote Leave based on lies that's infuriating and deflating - because it's people's futures being based on a lie.
TheChocolateWar
Member
There is a hole in your logic even assuming that the graphic is accurate. Merely because a majority of Leave voters are less educated does not mean that they were, on *average*; less informed, made their decisions based solely on the misleading facts, or did not make a concious decision based on their own personal belief structures.
Garrett Hawke
Member
SprachBrooks
Member
Ignorance is palpable.
fabricated backlash
Member
At this point I doubt the EU would want England back. Scotland and Nord Ireland, yeah, but England? Yeah no, not after this week.
Edit: I still feel sorry for you Brits with enough Brain not to fall for the racist hate filled rethoric that won this referendum. Maybe you need to get your house in order first.
Edit: I still feel sorry for you Brits with enough Brain not to fall for the racist hate filled rethoric that won this referendum. Maybe you need to get your house in order first.
BossDarkseid
Member
That is a fair point - which I think a lot of people haven't thought of...but it's...not so much a slipper slope but a cyclical aspect of the argument because one generation lived pre EU UK and during EU UK so they have a comparison. Then of course the current student-y generation have got in debt (yay 9k p/y) and studying in a really broad range of subjects and disciplines and might have goals to work in X or Y...and a lot of those depend on EU subsidiaries etc so a future they had planned for and sorta paid for is now becoming much more complicated.
Jesus this could all become so complicated because what if post-Cameron we have another GE but lets say Labour (Corbyn or otherwise) say they are in favour of the UK staying in the EU and would want a second referendum with a two thirds majority on a 75% turn out...we could have so many elections. Tired of them
mangochutney
Member
Immigration won't be the same if the Tories remain in power post our actual exit, you can be sure of that. I don't foresee a shut-door approach, but we'll see reduced amounts.
And who knows what will happen to the NHS.
But I do agree, you need some comeback on lies in politics. They pretty much admitted the number on their bus was a lie during the campaign, yet they stood by it and never removed it.
They must have spent it 10 times over, too. Oh don't worry NHS you can have that money. Don't worry farmers, we'll give it to you to replace your EU subsidies. Don't worry other people with EU grants, you can have that £350m too.
You'd think there'd be better cause for legal cases on claims made before elections and referendums.
Oh, and this petition will do nothing. They'll just respond saying the majority voted out and we will be carrying out the will of the people.
MrS
Banned
So what's the issue? England doesn't want to be in.
TheChocolateWar
Member
Assuming that your graphic is an accurate sampling of ALL leave voters; Merely because you disagree with someone's personal philosophy doesn't make them less sensible or less informed. Misguided? Maybe. Not the same thing logically.
fabricated backlash
Member
BossDarkseid
Member
No jobs have been lost? People on GAF have been told they have to look for another job because in 2yrs they'd become redundant. I mean i'm being pedantic but y'know
Garrett Hawke
Member
Are you being serious? There is a difference between disagreeing with someone's personal philosophy and disagreeing with the basic concept that some human beings are better than others based on their skin tone, place of birth, gender, or sexuality... which a lot of Leave voters seem to feel.
MrS
Banned
Almost half isn't enough so...
Night Angel
Member
Once more we see the "anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot" thought process. I'm sure you're just the smartest.
Kadayi
Banned
There's no precedent for it within the UK. So to claim it a possibility is at best wishful thinking, and to declare it democratic is delusional. Doesn't matter how many people real or otherwise sign that petition, it isn't going to gain any traction with parliament because the referendum has already passed, and the political fallout of not acknowledging the result by the political parties would be catastrophic from an electoral perspective.
Realistically, how much influence do you think papers like The Sun and the Telegraph had on voter opinion? It's going to be significant. And there are plenty of graphs based on accurate data that prove the Leave side had a large amount of ignorance involved.
As I said, take a look at the Vote Leave group on facebook, and read the comments. It'll show you there's a very large amount of voters who based their views on ridiculous claims.
This is in evidence all over the internet. The entire reason Farage has the platform he has is because millions of people subscribe to shit like "immigration is the problem" and he built his entire career on lies and deceit.
His voters make up a significant portion of the winning side. This is undeniable.
Right
Garrett Hawke
Member
Not what I was saying at all, and if you really think there isn't a difference between being intolerant of racist bigots and being intolerant of someone who doesn't like the NHS I don't know what to say to you.
TheChocolateWar
Member
It is a matter of definition;
A person can be reasonable and sensible in their misguided internal belief structure. A person can be a rational nationalist, but also a misguided nationalist. An evil man may also be informed and rational, but also misguided. Misguided is not the same concept as whether a person is knowledgable or sensible.
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