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Petition for 2nd referendum hits 2.7M signatures - and why it isn't pointless
- Thread starter Zakalwe
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So does anyone have a counter argument to this post? Because it seems pretty reasonable and convincing to me.first polling after referendum
no evidence that leave voters feel lied to and want a do over
I believe a 2nd vote should happen if there is a reasonable chance the result would change. This poll makes me think that isn't so likely.
Aren't you a trust fund kid? Yeah, I bet you're so ashamed.
Yes, because you should be ashamed that people believe in their country enough to fight for what they think is right for it.
I'll respect anyone who voted remain who did so with educated and forward thinking rational, but I cannot let the fact that many votes were won with by exploiting the ignorant with outright lies and hatred.
And neither should you.
I don't know about how accurately that poll represents the whole, but there's a good chance it would change as the vote was so damn close and the Remain camp has been exposed for using lies to secure the win.
We'll see how happy the people are with there vote as the weeks continue at it sinks in that their vote isn't going to bolster the NHS, nor stop the brown people from invading their country (now, I'm not saying all Leave voters were xenophobic, but you're deluded if you think a significant amount weren't - and by significant, I mean enough to flip the win in a 52/48 result).
How the hell is a trust fund relevant in relation to me?
YourMaster
Member
Brexit is a complex issue, and there's much more to be said and discussed about it. Many responses to the outcome go nothing beyond being sore losers though, as if there has not been plenty of time for everybody to share all arguments they had. It might not end up being a good thing, but the outcome is there.
Only time will tell how this will all turn out, but a change is a change. And there are the sort of people who just try to moan about how this is not what they wanted, and in general the majority of people will just go about their lives and hopefully speak out for progress. And if you feel (like I do) that European integration is a good thing just set out to make sure that a few decades from now people look back at this as a step toward that integration.
Yes, because changing a political system is comparable to putting a group of people in chains.
People have voted, and there is a result. They should vote more in the future, and I believe if they would have been allowed to vote more in the past this wouldn't have happened in the first place.
The UK should tweak their referendum laws however they want for next time, next subject. The EU should work hard to make the required changes so that they are an institution people are happy to join(even if not on the receiving end of subsidies), and they should feel free to ask the UK for input on this. When that is completed the Brits can vote again on if they want to join this renewed organization.
EDIT:
I did not dignify your almost-godwin with an answer no, that's right. But sure if you insist on having attention paid to your silliness: Slavery is bad, destroying all jews is bad, throwing nuclear bombs on your own country is bad, and if over half the country I would live in would vote for something like this it would not be business as usual for me. And no my response would not be signing an online petition or wining on a message board.
If however the majority of people voted for a different method of government and I would feel that would not make economic sense for my region, then yes I would respond by becoming more engaged in the political process.
I never said it's comparable, and you didn't answer the question.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
Of all the shit that's been bubbling to the surface over the topic of this referendum, this is what's making you ashamed of your country?
Only a third of youth went out and voted.
You want to be angry at someone? Be angry at them. I'm sick and tired of people today blaming others for their own lack of effort. "Oh but they lied and were mean!!" "Oh, but it was raining!" "Oh but we were too busy working!" "Oh but I thought we would win anyway!".
The older generation got out and voted. They educated themselves and made a goddamn effort. That is all there is to it.
Nah, it's actually much more complicated than that, but go on and remind everyone again about how this won't really affect you too deeply because your parents left you enough money. Truly, the british shame was palpable with those posts.
This same kind of crap happens all the time in America too. elections don't go your way? Bitch about how dumb people are. No we lost our mid term elections badly because NO ONE VOTED. period.
Young people should stop bitching on facebook/twitter about how horrible and dumb people are and should have ensured they and all their friends voted instead of posting memes all over the place.
this better be a wake up call in America too. Trump is a real threat, not some pretend BS stuff, don't take him seriously and we'll be having this same thread in november.
Young people should stop bitching on facebook/twitter about how horrible and dumb people are and should have ensured they and all their friends voted instead of posting memes all over the place.
this better be a wake up call in America too. Trump is a real threat, not some pretend BS stuff, don't take him seriously and we'll be having this same thread in november.
Perfectly sums up the situation. The sooner people can accept the vote the sooner we can get on and get things sorted. To be fair though, it's only been a couple of days.
No, my parents have not left me money. We are actually struggling in many respects. I also have a daughter who I put the majority of my money towards.
And my grandparents giving me money is based on a very, very specific set of rules which I need to meet, and I will not get the money until I'm 50. They are extremely shrewd and tight bastards.
But go on, carry on assuming you know about my life.
Starwolf_UK
Member
For people saying what needs to happen now is a pro EU party. That is the Lib Dem position. They've only got 8 MPs to lose at this point so I guess a cynic can say they'll try anything. Of course when ever you mention Lib Dems the great betrayalton comes up:
http://www.libdemvoice.org/tuition-fees-how-liberal-democrat-mps-voted-22346.html
27 for, 21 against, 8 did not vote...problem was being against was their election manifesto. Of the 8 MPs in power 4 were for and 4 were against (importantly, including the current leader).
But hang on why are you surprised? 48% of voters didn't get the result they voted for and if you look at the map of you find the areas which the most signatures are those that actually voted remain which sadly does support the dismissive "Nah democracy is fine because it went my way, you're just sore loser. Fuck your ideas of making things better for the future I'm not listening. You're just a SORE LOSER!!!! Don't you get it? should have had a better campaign if you want to win, loser." argument but doesn't support the arugment of "it's fake people could salt it so they must be".
It is somewhat irrelevant what happens beyond 100,000. That is enough to consider it for debate.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/tuition-fees-how-liberal-democrat-mps-voted-22346.html
27 for, 21 against, 8 did not vote...problem was being against was their election manifesto. Of the 8 MPs in power 4 were for and 4 were against (importantly, including the current leader).
It asks for name, e-mail address and UK postcode. You are sent a link to your e-mail.
But hang on why are you surprised? 48% of voters didn't get the result they voted for and if you look at the map of you find the areas which the most signatures are those that actually voted remain which sadly does support the dismissive "Nah democracy is fine because it went my way, you're just sore loser. Fuck your ideas of making things better for the future I'm not listening. You're just a SORE LOSER!!!! Don't you get it? should have had a better campaign if you want to win, loser." argument but doesn't support the arugment of "it's fake people could salt it so they must be".
It is somewhat irrelevant what happens beyond 100,000. That is enough to consider it for debate.
You compared us to people who stood in the way of gay rights, and the opposition of abortion etc... when these are the exact things that followers of Nigle Farage, one of the more prominent leaders of the Leave campaign, would vote against. And he has millions of followers.
Show me how such a large portion of the Remain campaign would have done the same?
You have no evidence to suggest they educated themselves on anything.
And I have every right to be furious at the media and leaders who used outright lies and plays on ignorance to secure a win.
MrS
Banned
Blame Remain leaders for not providing compelling arguments to stay. Blame them for not convincingly rebuffing the claims of Leave leaders. Blame the youth for the bad turnout. It won't change anything, of course, but at least your scorn would be aimed in the right direction.
Of course it will. Maybe not on this referendum, but if we keep momentum and show we'll no longer allow corrupt media and leaders to spew lies and hatred to control huge amounts of ignorant voters, then we can make a difference in the future.
And that's the exact thing we care about, the future.
Here's a little hypothetical
Suppose the Remain campaign had said "we've been negotiating with Europe, if this referendum goes to Remain then we will get a new deal that DOESN'T include the free movement of people"
This would have been more than enough to swing the vote in their favour, but on the morning of the result they then come out and say "well we're trying to get such a deal, but noone should expect it to actually happen". How would you feel? Do you think a second referendum would be warranted?
That said, I am against a second referendum, unless someone has good reason to discredit this:
Suppose the Remain campaign had said "we've been negotiating with Europe, if this referendum goes to Remain then we will get a new deal that DOESN'T include the free movement of people"
This would have been more than enough to swing the vote in their favour, but on the morning of the result they then come out and say "well we're trying to get such a deal, but noone should expect it to actually happen". How would you feel? Do you think a second referendum would be warranted?
That said, I am against a second referendum, unless someone has good reason to discredit this:
first polling after referendum
no evidence that leave voters feel lied to and want a do over
Captin Quacker
Member
but it's their responsibly to educate themselves
and if the leave campaign used such tactics why aren't you going after them
You're on the side of the argument against which personal attacks *are* tolerated.
Even if it's to save the country from destroying it's economy?
Who's tolerating it? I've been asking Cromwell to tone it down for ages...
I am, obviously.
its not democracy if you need to redo it over and over until you get the result you want mate.
TemplaerDude
Member
You can't just vote till you get the result you want.
YourMaster
Member
This is already in progress, better now then every before and continuing to improve. The internet and general and social media in particular make it much more difficult to hide information from the public.
I find it disgusting how many half truths and lies are used in campaigning for this referendum and others in the past by almost everybody involved, but I must admit I have no idea how many of the voters are unable to see behind this curtain of lies, or if one side is more successful in lying to the public then another.
In fact, right now I have a grand total of £0 in my bank account. I have no savings. I had to scrape together change from my car and around my home to buy a fucking Walls pasty for dinner yesterday. I am absolutely struggling. And it's due to the government.
Since mid last year I have been fucked over. Despite trying to organise payments to my ex for child support (note that I have my daughter round every other day and overnight each weekend without fail), she claimed it wasn't good enough and went to the child maintenance service. Who take the money directly from the wages via a priority order.
I should be paying £30 a week maximum based on my income and circumstances. However, they miscalculated everything, based the income on my previous job earning £24k a year, refused to accept that my job pay me as an agency worker with a volatile pay rate, and deducted up to £200 a week on a £300 a week income. On the weeks I didn't work (and didn't get paid) they carried over the payment they wrongly assumed I needed to pay to the next week, leaving me with literally zero pay.
We have spent hours every single day phoning them, begging for help, submitting evidence to help, threatening court action, all to no avail. Road blocks every single way. I had to reduce my hours at work a month ago to two days a week (because, why work 40 and only be paid for 10 of them?!) Only to find nothing changed. I worked 6 hours on the last week of May and earnt £80. Child maintenance took out £60 directly from my pay.
Luckily it's been sorted now, but the damage has been done. The only reason it has been sorted is because we got our local MP on our side and we used EU legislation to argue that my rights were being well and truly assfucked.
I have made it by okay over the past two months by wheeling and dealing on eBay, selling everything I could, reconditioning hardware to make a profit and doing some web design on the side...but that's dried up now, and shit has got real.
I have every right to be furious and critical of this government, the fact that we have left the EU, and the fools that are moaning about the result yet couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place.
Since mid last year I have been fucked over. Despite trying to organise payments to my ex for child support (note that I have my daughter round every other day and overnight each weekend without fail), she claimed it wasn't good enough and went to the child maintenance service. Who take the money directly from the wages via a priority order.
I should be paying £30 a week maximum based on my income and circumstances. However, they miscalculated everything, based the income on my previous job earning £24k a year, refused to accept that my job pay me as an agency worker with a volatile pay rate, and deducted up to £200 a week on a £300 a week income. On the weeks I didn't work (and didn't get paid) they carried over the payment they wrongly assumed I needed to pay to the next week, leaving me with literally zero pay.
We have spent hours every single day phoning them, begging for help, submitting evidence to help, threatening court action, all to no avail. Road blocks every single way. I had to reduce my hours at work a month ago to two days a week (because, why work 40 and only be paid for 10 of them?!) Only to find nothing changed. I worked 6 hours on the last week of May and earnt £80. Child maintenance took out £60 directly from my pay.
Luckily it's been sorted now, but the damage has been done. The only reason it has been sorted is because we got our local MP on our side and we used EU legislation to argue that my rights were being well and truly assfucked.
I have made it by okay over the past two months by wheeling and dealing on eBay, selling everything I could, reconditioning hardware to make a profit and doing some web design on the side...but that's dried up now, and shit has got real.
I have every right to be furious and critical of this government, the fact that we have left the EU, and the fools that are moaning about the result yet couldn't be bothered to vote in the first place.
I somehow knew all this anecdotal evidence that there was voters remorse among the Leave camp was a crock of shit.first polling after referendum
no evidence that leave voters feel lied to and want a do over
The vote wasn't "so damn close". 2 points isn't damn close in an election in a country of 65 million people and 46.5m voting. Of the registered voters, you would need to convince 634,751 to get back to exactly 50%+1, for a result which would be, in fact "so damn close". To get the opposite score of 52% Remain, you would need to convince 1.27 million people, for a result which would still be, in your own terms, "so damn close".
numbers
Democracy must be flawed then if it puts the country in a much worse place than it was before, it's like a family voting on whether to downgrade from a nice car to a delboy 3 wheeler, some of them must have some brain damage.
Captin Quacker
Member
after the votes been cast tho
It wasn't just anecdotal, there's evidence that Leave voters are expressing regret because:
1. They didn't think we would really be leaving.
2. They understand they were lied to.
We don't know quite how far this regret stretches yet, but it will become apparent over the coming weeks. It could be a small percentage, or it could be a significant amount.
Time will tell.
And before and during. I should stop now?
It was close enough that there could be enough people who feel they were lied to and wish to recast to swing it in favour of staying.
Again, time will tell if this is true or indeed if it will have any impact at all. But in this context, then yes: damn close and worth looking into.
I can't see anything in that link that isn't anecdotal...
No offense, but I see this argument as sort of coming from a place of privilege. There are large parts of the UK who have been left behind, and feel like things are already as bad as they can get. Jobs have been lost through globalisation, wages have been depressed through globalisation but also uncontrolled immigration, inter-generational poverty and joblessness have taken hold.
You only need to look at the sort of areas which voted to leave to see how these people and communities feel.
Is getting out the answer? Probably not. But both big politics and the European experiment has failed these communities. People here will now make claims about EU subsidies, the contribution the EU has made to worker's rights etc and that's fine. But for these people, it's hasn't been enough - it hasn't even begun to make up for what they've lost. They see their community as without a future, and any alternative seems worth a go over the status quo when you're at the bottom.
As an aside, this is why this level of economic inequality is so dangerous. And an elitist left-wing doesn't help matters by further marginalising these people as xenophobes, simpletons or racists rather than trying to understand why they have the views they have, and appealing to them directly (this doesn't mean xenophobia or racism should tolerated of course though). But maybe it's time to think about how your behaviour contributes to the problem rather than simply shifting the blame to everyone else.
Captin Quacker
Member
I'd imagine you'd be finding ways to prove that the people were lied to
You're right, my bad (I mis-remembered one of the pieces) but It does show how some Leavers regret their decision. And if they do, especially the ones who realise they've been lied to, there's a chance that the total number may be significant.
As I said, this doesn't prove anything yet, but it may do in the coming weeks.
That was and will be a part of it, sure.
Lol that's the definition of anecdotal evidence. Have a poll with a significant fraction of Leave voters expressing regrets and we can talk. But right now they aren't.
first polling after referendum
no evidence that leave voters feel lied to and want a do over
ReplacementPelican
Member
You don't actually know that. Are you a usual fan of straw men or is this a recent fascination of yours?
Well, they're about to find out how wrong that is.
Meanwhile the elite they despise so much will move their money and operations around to insulate themselves the best they can, so at worse the rich will just be a little less rich.
While also scaremongering rather than being positive, the remain camp rolled out report after report from domestic and international experts on why we should stay in Europe. The leave camp made up absolute bullshit about £350m per week and shrugged off any rational argument from the remain side with literally no evidence or thought.
Do you really want me to collate all the evidence that shows only just over a third of young voters throughout Britain actually went out and voted? Because I would rather do something else with my time.
Exactly. And people bit it. And, hopefully, this will piss them off to the point they demand changes.
MrS
Banned
5 leavers. The same 5 who are in EVERY article about 'voter regret'. It's a non-story and it's being perpetuated by the media outlets who wanted us to Remain. I am sorry to see that you've been duped by it, cause their intentions are pretty overt.
ReplacementPelican
Member
You're right about that and yet you have zero evidence that these specific people didn't vote, just a 'you're young and young people by and large didn't vote so you mustn't have so shut up'. Try not to reach too far, you may fall off your ivory tower.
Read my posts. I clearly state this may not mean much, or it may be indicative of a larger whole who will come to realise the truth over the coming weeks.
The fact is Leave did lie, overtly, and that news is going to spread.
I hope the people who were suckered do find a need to stand up and shout, because a win this way is not a win.
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