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[DeepEnigma]

Man how spoiled/entitled gamers have become.

I remember when we had to wait sometimes 1-2 years for a PC port and vise/versa. Still paid full price, still enjoyed it, and it was still a new experience on the platform it was purchased on.

Regardless, with all the sales that games have compared to the past, they are usually released on the new platform at the discounted price of the original platform it was on.

Thus this argument adds nothing of value to this issue other than try to mask how you really feel.

 

[bishoptl]

so all I care for is my money. I don't owe the devs or MS/Sony anything...

Yeesh. Well, feel free to applaud devs taking the same stance regarding their finances.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

 

[bishoptl]

LOL

 

[HighResTomato]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

You had your coffee yet?

 

[LiquidSolid]

To be honest I didn't read all of those comments.

And I'm only standing on MY side of the equation. I seriously don't give a damn about any other side. I'm the customer, so all I care for is my money. I don't owe the devs or MS/Sony anything...

For the self centred asshole you portray yourself to be, you sure seem unconcerned that the Xbone is lagging behind hugely when it comes to indies.

 

[DeepEnigma]

For the self centred asshole you portray yourself to be, you sure seem unconcerned that the Xbone is lagging behind hugely when it comes to indies.

Cause those aren't real games bruh! /s

 

[BBboy20]

I think?

 

[HighResTomato]

For the self centred asshole you portray yourself to be, you sure seem unconcerned that the Xbone is lagging behind hugely when it comes to indies.

No need to get that hostile. Devs are entitled to serve their best interest and so is he.

 

[El-Pistolero]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

WHAT?

 

[Zeuanimals]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

No Man's Clause.

 

[erale]

What does that shitty stance have to do with anything, honestly? Nobody is saying developers are entitled to your money, or that you should have to buy their games. That's not what's at issue here at all.

Well MS is "forcing" devs to release to either release on all platforms on the same time or either add some bonus content if you release later on the XB1. While their intentions are different then the customers I think that's not exactly a bad thing for all involved parties.

Also why is it a shitty stance to want to be treated equal? At the same time there is one product on multiple platforms and customers on platform B are expected to pay more than customers on platform A? If other people are fine with that, okay. I respect that. I'm not.

 

[bishoptl]

Well MS is "forcing" devs to release to either release on all platforms on the same time or either add some bonus content if you release later on the XB1. While their intentions are different then the customers I think that's not exactly a bad thing for all involved parties.

Curious you'd say that when one of the involved parties has made it clear that it is a bad thing. Several times over.

Very curious.

 

[erale]

For the self centred asshole you portray yourself to be, you sure seem unconcerned that the Xbone is lagging behind hugely when it comes to indies.

Wow nice attitude towards others... Would I love to see some more inies on the xbox? Sure, why not. But again, I'm not willing to pay any price for it.

But I see, I'm not allowed to care for my money without being a self centered assholes that wants to see those poor indie devs burn...

 

[Zeuanimals]

Well MS is "forcing" devs to release to either release on all platforms on the same time or either add some bonus content if you release later on the XB1. While their intentions are different then the customers I think that's not exactly a bad thing for all involved parties.

Also why is it a shitty stance to want to be treated equal? At the same time there is one product on multiple platforms and customers on platform B are expected to pay more than customers on platform A? If other people are fine with that, okay. I respect that. I'm not.

Lol. That's assuming that anybody has to pay more. Indie games often stay the same price on consoles forever, they're already pretty damn cheap in the first place.

And MS forcing devs to add extra content should atleast see the devs be compensated by MS, you know, that billion dollar company that could afford to pay devs some pocket change? It's extra work, for someone who's so worried about his own finances you should know that people don't like doing extra work without compensation.

 

[Dyson Industries]

Wow nice attitude towards others...

Nobody can be this thick. Keep trolling, mate.

 

[Zeuanimals]

Wow nice attitude towards others... Would I love to see some more inies on the xbox? Sure, why not. But again, I'm not willing to pay any price for it.

But I see, I'm not allowed to care for my money without being a self centered assholes that wants to see those poor indie devs burn...

No, you're a self centered asshole for not realizing that other people have their own finances to worry about too, including indie devs. You want them to sacrifice their own finances to please you and you don't care about what it would do to them. Kind of the definition of being self centered.

 

[Jigorath]

Really wish some one would leak documents containing this infamous policy.

Nobody needs to leak anything. You can hear it straight from Phil Spencer in the OP.

 

[mrklaw]

Wow nice attitude towards others... Would I love to see some more inies on the xbox? Sure, why not. But again, I'm not willing to pay any price for it.

But I see, I'm not allowed to care for my money without being a self centered assholes that wants to see those poor indie devs burn...

Nobody is saying you can't care for your money. Nobody is forcing you to buy a game that comes late (even though you've said yourself that a game coming late that was on steam you don't mind - so you are already being hypocritical).

What people mind is you not extending the courtesy of choice to developers. Or to consumers that don't own the console you do.

If a developer can't afford to develop on both consoles at the same time then MS' policy means they have to sit on the PS4 version until the Xbox version is ready.

You still get the game at the same time. You still pay the same price. But now millions of PS4 owners have been forced to wait too.

 

[Toki767]

Well MS is "forcing" devs to release to either release on all platforms on the same time or either add some bonus content if you release later on the XB1. While their intentions are different then the customers I think that's not exactly a bad thing for all involved parties.

Also why is it a shitty stance to want to be treated equal? At the same time there is one product on multiple platforms and customers on platform B are expected to pay more than customers on platform A? If other people are fine with that, okay. I respect that. I'm not.

Microsoft isn't going to complain if devs release on Xbox first.

Sony isn't going to complain if devs release on Xbox first.

Microsoft will complain if devs release on PS4 first.

That's the basis of the argument.

 

[erale]

Curious you'd say that when one of the involved parties has made it clear that it is a bad thing. Several times over.

Very curious.

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

 

[lifeexpectancy]

Curious you'd say that when one of the involved parties has made it clear that it is a bad thing. Several times over.

Very curious.

This thread is just brimming with choice Bishings like this. It's really the only reason I keep coming back.

 

[Jigorath]

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

Are you really whining about price for $10-$15 indie games?

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

I always thought the spying concerns were overblown; we took our own privacy away years ago.

Sharing personal information with websites willingly is not giving away our rights to privacy in anyway, shape or form. They don't get to see your medical records, should they just have them anyway? I mean, privacy means nothing to you, so you'll be fine with that.

 

[Toki767]

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

The way sales work is that people buy them at a cheaper price because your mind tricks you into thinking you're getting a deal when a game is normally a higher price.

If you launch a game at the lower price, most people would then wait for that lower price to go on sale before buying it. So no, that wouldn't result in devs necessarily getting more money.

 

[erale]

Microsoft isn't going to complain if devs release on Xbox first.

Sony isn't going to complain if devs release on Xbox first.

Microsoft will complain if devs release on PS4 first.

That's the basis of the argument.

I wrote "forcing" because in the end it's still the devs choice if they want to play that game with MS. MS is basically saying "release the game on all platforms at the same time (or even earlier on xbox) or give our customers 'something special'" right?

So as I already wrote, if you can't afford to release on multiple platforms at once, give those other customers that something special. They will appreciate it.

I know it's weird that MS is demanding that, as they're the least company that gives "lower tier" customers something special...

 

[Noshino]

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

You make a lot of assumptions that have little to no backing.

 

[bishoptl]

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

It's already been explained, but your agenda - and attitude - was clear from the jump. Clear hypocrisy in seeing no issue in picking up late games from Steam, but God forbid they come to Xbone late without the developer dipping into their finances to provide extra "goodies". I see you working.

 

[Noshino]

I wrote "forcing" because in the end it's still the devs choice if they want to play that game with MS. MS is basically saying "release the game on all platforms at the same time (or even earlier on xbox) or give our customers 'something special'" right?

So as I already wrote, if you can't afford to release on multiple platforms at once, give those other customers that something special. They will appreciate it.

I know it's weird that MS is demanding that, as they're the least company that gives "lower tier" customers something special...

How are you going to afford making the "something special"?

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

Those damned spawning space cops and their unknown agendas against those lone survivors, who are just trying to scrape by.

 

[Kayant]

I was hearing that some devs didn't have to go through the same hoops as other devs depending on how popular their game is. I thought that was the main issue, but I didn't think the issue was too big since I thought devs would be compensated for the extra hoops...

I mean, Phil Spencer says "we make deals too". Deals normally infer that there's money or marketing (beyond a spot on XBLM) for the game, but I dunno, I guess they're using some new meaning of the word that I wasn't aware of.

That was in the beginning where if you don't have a elsewhere you where not part of the exemption which is why some devs used it as a loophole to get on XB1. Now they have expanded it to you can come to our platform if you make exclusive content for us. Which in turn allows for more devs to have a chance compared to before if they didn't have the hype they had less chance of being on the platform. 1 stepforward, 2 steps backwards.

How are you going to afford making the "something special"?

Unicorn blood obviously

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Honestly, having sentinels spawn in the same numbers as the cops from GTA will ruin this game for me. I don't need that hassle of constantly having to fend off a horde of bots when all I want to do is massacre a poor innocent species that looked at me funny.

Wrong thread? No Man's Sky is that way ->

 

[LiquidSolid]

Is it so bad for them to add a few goodies for the customers of the other platform? I know not every indie game generates huge profits, but assuming a game is on sale on a platform or got its price reduced permanently, why would you release the game with the exact same price on another platform for the launch price?

Probably the development costs have already been covered, so why not lower the price a bit or add extra content? Wouldn't that be that "something special" Spencer is referring to? Would that hurt devs that much?

I think (maybe I'm wrong here) that could even boost sales for the devs from the very start.

Based on what exactly? Porting a game from PS4 to Xbone takes months of work for a small team. And then once that port is done, they've got to start working on their next game for the next x many years. Where do you think they're going to get all this money?

As for that last bit, it might boost sales but why should Microsoft force them to add something, even if they can't afford to do so? It should be entirely up to the developer, which is exactly what's happened with Super Time Force Ultra on PS4.

 

[Zeuanimals]

I wrote "forcing" because in the end it's still the devs choice if they want to play that game with MS. MS is basically saying "release the game on all platforms at the same time (or even earlier on xbox) or give our customers 'something special'" right?

So as I already wrote, if you can't afford to release on multiple platforms at once, give those other customers that something special. They will appreciate it.

I know it's weird that MS is demanding that, as they're the least company that gives "lower tier" customers something special...

How would most consumers know that they're getting extra content on their game if they've got no point of reference for it on other platforms? Are they going to advertise "now with extra levels you can't get anywhere else"? Wouldn't that piss off people who paid full price for the game but can't get that extra content on the PS4?

And apparently, you'd prefer not getting the game at all rather than getting the same game everyone else is getting. And that's exactly what's happening.

 

[crazy monkey]

Man how spoiled/entitled gamers have become.

I remember when we had to wait sometimes 1-2 years for a PC port and vise/versa. Still paid full price, still enjoyed it, and it was still a new experience on the platform it was purchased on.

Regardless, with all the sales that games have compared to the past, they are usually released on the new platform at the discounted price of the original platform it was on.

Thus this argument adds nothing of value to this issue other than try to mask how you really feel.

if you leave the Internets it is still like that. mainly internet gamers are very different.

 

[mrklaw]

What's wrong with MS requiring devs to release at the same time or not release at all?
What's wrong with requiring additional content if you release late?

What's wrong is it means Xbox owners don't get to play a bunch of great indie games.

 

[LewieP]

Which is exactly what's happened with Super Time Force Ultra on PS4.

This is a good example, although I think that is a bit of an oversimplification.

According to Sony's publicly stated policy, they'd have been able to release without any kind of exclusive content.

However, in exchange for this exclusive content, Sony provided a bunch of marketing/promotion support. A mutually beneficial arrangement that both Sony and the developer benefited from, but the developer was not required to create this exclusive content in order to secure permission to release on Playstation.

This is Sony's approach, a carrot rather than a stick.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Based on what exactly? Porting a game from PS4 to Xbone takes months of work for a small team. And then once that port is done, they've got to start working on their next game for the next x many years. Where do you think they're going to get all this money?

As for that last bit, it might boost sales but why should Microsoft force them to add something, even if they can't afford to do so? It should be entirely up to the developer, which is exactly what's happened with Super Time Force Ultra on PS4.

What are the additional things that are being added? I thought things like Battletoads appearing in Shovel Knight were what we were talking about. The way it's being spoken about here it sounds like it's something much more significant. I'm not a developer but I'd assume that adding an extra character wouldn't represent a lot of extra work when doing the port? Are Xbox One versions of games getting additional levels or gameplay features added to them? Genuine Question, I'm not aware of any other differences other than Shovel Knight's extra character(s).

 

[leeh]

It's already been explained, but your agenda - and attitude - was clear from the jump. Clear hypocrisy in seeing no issue in picking up late games from Steam, but God forbid they come to Xbone late without the developer dipping into their finances to provide extra "goodies". I see you working.

How do you know it comes from their pocket? From the sound of the original post and 'work together' it could imply subsidised cost. Theyve done that a lot this gen, wouldnt surprise me if they'd do that in this situation.

 

[Jomjom]

Huh what's the difference between early on PS4 or PC? Last I checked all the consoles are x86 aren't they? Is this because of console wars?

 

[Noshino]

How do you know it comes from their pocket? From the sound of the original post and 'work together' it could imply subsidised cost. Theyve done that a lot this gen, wouldnt surprise me if they'd do that in this situation.

Such as?

 

[Cess007]

I'm not a developer but I'd assume that adding an extra character wouldn't represent a lot of extra work when doing the port?

It's more work than people seems to think.

Adding a single extra character means days of planning, desing, creation, coding and QA testing; and - i assume - for small indie devs, this may take weeks or months of extra job.

 

[GnawtyDog]

As long as MS is NOT the market leader this gen I see no issue with the clause. Its main goal is to prevent the competition from getting exclusive indie deals. When in a market leadership position MS can leverage install base over their main competitors in numerous ways. The clause is there to increase that leverage 2-fold. In short, the goal is to make exclusive-indie deals more expensive for the competition or for indie devs to place priority in releasing on Xbox over the competition or for indie devs to think twice about not releasing first/simultaneously on Xbox. Also helps them secure indie exclusive deals easier. The clause is there to reinforce market leadership.

Since that has completely backfired (MS is not THE market leader, outsold 2:1) I could care less. I would worry again by the time next-gen comes if it still exist - all indications point that they'll keep the clause on paper. A paper tiger for now.

Sure I can see some indie devs rather benefiting from it's non-existence (no barriers to releasing on another platform), and ultimately gamers of the Xbox platform get more indies as a result but it's what it's (and while the majority of Xbox fans would rather see it gone, there is definitely a base that enjoys defending it - so to those, enjoy it!!!). MS is currently cherry picking the indies they want etc and since they're in no position to demand as much; they'll take high profile indies with open arms - hence the come-talk-to-us™ routine. They're keeping the clause on paper because that's in their genes, and they'll make sure everyone knows what they'll be dealing with in the future...if by next gen roles change in market leadership.

No amount of sweet talk will change what the clause is - at its heart.

 

[Jomjom]

What are the additional things that are being added? I thought things like Battletoads appearing in Shovel Knight were what we were talking about. The way it's being spoken about here it sounds like it's something much more significant. I'm not a developer but I'd assume that adding an extra character wouldn't represent a lot of extra work when doing the port? Are Xbox One versions of games getting additional levels or gameplay features added to them? Genuine Question, I'm not aware of any other differences other than Shovel Knight's extra character(s).

Depends on what kind of game. Go ask Ravi how much it costs to make a character in Skullgirls. Was it tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?

 

[LewieP]

How do you know it comes from their pocket? From the sound of the original post and 'work together' it could imply subsidised cost. Theyve done that a lot this gen, wouldnt surprise me if they'd do that in this situation.

Again: The reason we don't have clear information on this subject is because Microsoft has chosen not to release such information, and they have bound developers releasing on Xbox with NDAs.

 

[travisbickle]

The clause is basically a fee for independent developers being independent developers. It's not like they intentionally take deals to annoy fans, they need the support to help them launch the game, to keep them independent. To force a dev into providing more content undoes any of the cost saving/balancing they made to be able to launch the game in the first place.

 

[GnawtyDog]

Depends on what kind of game. Go ask Ravi how much it costs to make a character in Skullgirls. Was it tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?

I would assume yeah... for SFIV it was 1 million per. Characters in fighting games are expensive to make.

 

[redcrayon]

What are the additional things that are being added? I thought things like Battletoads appearing in Shovel Knight were what we were talking about. The way it's being spoken about here it sounds like it's something much more significant. I'm not a developer but I'd assume that adding an extra character wouldn't represent a lot of extra work when doing the port? Are Xbox One versions of games getting additional levels or gameplay features added to them? Genuine Question, I'm not aware of any other differences other than Shovel Knight's extra character(s).

Adding an 'extra character' can be a huge amount of work- the new characters in Sony/MS's versions of Shovel Knight involve new stages and items that then need to be tested against everything else in the game. Dropping new elements in without considering everything it may or may not have to interact with could be disastrous, you are looking at dozens (maybe even hundreds) of hours of work and thousands of dollars depending on the process used.

Not only that, but at this point I think the success and critical acclaim surrounding Shovel Knight makes it something of an outlier- they had a hugely successful (and well run) kickstarter and PR campaign, followed by widespread press coverage. I think it's fair to say YCG, despite the financial hardships of indie development, are probably going to be OK for at least a year or so on the back of it's success. Not every team scores a huge hit on their first outing, after months of spending their own savings, it takes a while to pay off the dev costs, it's not a case that every indie team is suddenly rolling in cash because their game is up on the PSN store/steam. They are starting at a severe loss and putting faith in a game taking off or at least being successful enough to keep food on the table, any argument that bases what is reasonable on the assumption that all parties are equal in a negotiation isn't very fair when their MS contact probably isn't betting his savings, months/years of work and career over the project being a success.

It costs nothing to allow devs to publish their finished game, asking them, with no knowledge of their financial situation, to commit to even a months unpaid work is ridiculous when MS are unlikely to send a group of their own devs to work for free. A months salary is a lot for a small company, and even more for a small company that might not have paid anyone for months during development.

 

[AHindD]

Huh what's the difference between early on PS4 or PC? Last I checked all the consoles are x86 aren't they? Is this because of console wars?

What does this have to do with anything? They're completely separate and different platforms that happen to share a CPU architecture.

 

[Cthulhu_Steev]

Depends on what kind of game. Go ask Ravi how much it costs to make a character in Skullgirls. Was it tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?

It was ten one hundreds of thousands, I think. Can't believe they didn't want to do it for free so they could publish on xbone.