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[Deleted member 17706]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

What are you talking about? If studios are putting out shit, then they aren't "the best."

They may have been "the best" in the past, but if they are putting out shit, then they are no longer the best.

Look at Bioware post Dragon Age II (I'd argue Mass Effect 2, but I'd be in the minority). They were once "best in the class," but now they are kind of garbage.

You can't hang onto "the best" moniker based solely off past games. You've got to sustain a level of quality.

The best Japanese studios these days are putting out stuff like Dark Souls, Xenoblade, Mario Galaxy, Bayonetta, Dragon's Dogma, etc.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

What I'm getting from this thread is that most games are kinda bad except a few of them.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I'd be pissed at Inafune too if he threw my studio (and half the studios he's worked with) under the bus when they underperformed, took credit for them when they did well, outsourced half of my former company's games to fuel his Western fetishism, then abandoned his "dream project" to die a painful death so that he could follow his dream and serve as producer to a loli SPRG and a Ninja Gaiden spinoff by a Z-tier developer.

Harsh...and I agree completly.

 

[Mecha]

More like RPG, Action, Puzzle, Visual Novel, Moe, Moe, RPG, Adventure, Action RPG, Inazuma Eleven, Action, Platformer.

You need more moe, more visual novels, more fighting games, and some Pro Yakyuu Spirits in there.

 

[Clear]

Got to be honest, I find the mentality that lower budget = lesser quality pretty repellent.

Polish isn't everything. It is, by definition, creating a smooth and shiny SURFACE. Not enough attention is given to the actual substance of games seemingly by both fans and critics these days.

 

[Shinta]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

Final Fantasy XIII is far from garbage. To this day, it's easily one of the most graphically, artistically impressive games of this whole generation. The music is pretty much undisputed as top tier quality in every way. The voice acting is all done by many of the same people from Mass Effect, or other top AAA games. The battle system was praised heavily at the time.

So you didn't like the story, and the linearity? Get over it. Calling it garbage is just complete hyperbole.

And speaking of western developers, many called Mass Effect 2 and 3 garbage as well. Both Mass Effect and Final Fantasy XIII tried to streamline RPGs to be more appealing to a casual audience, with largely linear worlds, and simplified action gameplay. Don't even get me started on Dragon Age II. It makes Final Fantasy XIII-2 look like game of the century.

Metroid: Other M is also a completely technically proficient game in pretty much every way. The combat works well, the graphics look nice. People seemed to hate the story, and freaked out about it. Sounds very similar to the shitstorm going on now about Tomb Raider, from a western studio.

Platinum's point stands. Your examples honestly point to more similarities than differences.

 

[Sipowicz]

yeah right

Call me when japanese developers make games as good as TWEWY, DQ 9, Mario Galaxy 2, Dark Souls, Street Fighter 4 and Vanquish

 

[Goldenroad]

But they are good and ready to shove out Duke Nukem.

You have no point.

LOL. If Gearbox is one of the best Western Studios then I am done with gaming. They have yet to put out a single good game imho.

 

[Ridley327]

I'm not faulting a dev alone..I think it's a weakness their whole team has in general. Listen again, I love their games..Vanquish/bayo/god hand (well not technically...but close enough lol) are some of my best gaming experiences of all time. But if they had been a bit more pro active and smart with their games, they could have had better success with those games imho. I think we won't see a sequel to vanquish and that kills me. So at least part of the issue is them. Inafune does game development as well but now he does very well in the business side as well...he approached sony for soul sacrifice...he approached NG team with Yaiba and so on. He is proactive and is successful. A very good example to follow

How is Platinum not being proactive, though? They managed to take over a deeply troubled project like MGR and vastly outpaced whatever progress KojiPro had made in less than a year's time, and they've managed to impress Nintendo enough to work on a totally brand-new IP, that's being directed by their top man. I mean, they managed to resurrect Bayonetta 2 from the brink of oblivion!

It honestly sounds like your problem is with Sega for sending their games out with no fanfare than anything that Platinum is deficient at.

 

[Retro_]

You knew that now? Kamiya seems to think he is God's gift to mankind. He has always been very arrogant.

Does he?? I thought that was just the persona gaf created for him based on twitter responses to obnoxious people

I'd be pissed at Inafune too if he threw my studio (and half the studios he's worked with) under the bus when they underperformed, took credit for them when they did well, outsourced half of my former company's games to fuel his Western fetishism, then abandoned his "dream project" to die a painful death so that he could follow his dream and serve as producer to a loli SPRG and a Ninja Gaiden spinoff by a Z-tier developer.

The thing is the comment people are up in arms about isn't even meant to be offensive....

Inafune has simply just worked more on the business side of games. It's a statement of fact.

So when people label games as "Inafune's works" it's disrespectful to the people actually creatively responsible for those projects.

 

[Zaventem]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

The "best" are putting out buggy garbage games like alpha protocol,skyrim and mass effect 3.

 

[Digital-Hero]

Final Fantasy XIII is far from garbage. To this day, it's easily one of the most graphically, artistically impressive games of this whole generation. The music is pretty much undisputed as top tier quality in every way. The voice acting is all done by many of the same people from Mass Effect, or other top AAA games. The battle system was praised heavily at the time.

But it still isn't "good". Frankly, the only thing that kept me playing was the music.

 

[Dion Blaster]

Isn't Nintendo a japanese developer? First thing I think of whenever I hear crap like this.

The west has been put out the most quality games this gen of course, but Japan has contributed a lot.

 

[gryz]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

but those games weren't bad. maybe you didn't like them because you are obsessed with your idealized waifu samus or whatever, but they certainly weren't garbage.

 

[Satch]

why are people talking shit about Kamiya in here?

 

[ULTROS!]

One thing I like about Platinum (and a number of Japanese devs) is that they don't approach their games purely serious, meaning it has uniqueness, craziness, and interesting factors which make them fun and memorable.

Bayonetta was wacky, Catherine was crazy, KH is all out crazy, even FFXIII had a very interesting lore and location designs (FNC Mythos, not the story of FFXIII).

I dunno but IMO a lot of Western devs approach the games too seriously, making it as realistic as possible, which I don't find quite interesting.

 

[Retro_]

One thing I like about Platinum (and a number of Japanese devs) is that they don't approach their games purely serious, meaning it has uniqueness, craziness, and interesting factors which make them fun and memorable.

Bayonetta was wacky, Catherine was crazy, KH is all out crazy, even FFXIII had a very interesting lore and location designs (FNC Mythos, not the story of FFXIII).

I dunno but IMO a lot of Western devs approach the games too seriously, making it as realistic as possible, which I don't find quite interesting.

I have no basis for thinking this, but I always took that as publishers and marketting having more of a hand on the creative side in the west than in japan.

Alot less studios in the west known for their art and styles.

 

[Clear]

But it still isn't "good". Frankly, the only thing that kept me playing was the music.

I'd rather replay XIII (which is a middling FF entry imho) than a lot of mega-selling western franchises myself, but that's not to say that they are all "garbage", that's just my personal taste.

Creative people should be encouraged to take chances. Turning every release into a life/death situation is really unhealthy.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Final Fantasy XIII is shit.
Skyrim and ME3 are buggy garbage games.

This thread is great. I feel like it's the rednecks of both cultures yelling at each other.

People enjoy different things. I don't feel any of the Japanese studios I enjoyed have "declined". I just feel my tastes have changed personally. I don't want a crazy FF story as much as I would rather roam around the Midwest on a horse. I think the games presented to people can more adhere to their specific tastes because there are so many coming out now from all angles.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

why are people talking shit about Kamiya in here?

People can't handle the truth.

 

[Ridley327]

I have no basis for thinking this, but I always took that as publishers and marketting having more of a hand on the creative side in the west than in japan.

Alot less studios in the west known for their art and styles.

I don't think that anyone would argue that the west certainly has had some major problems with homogenization in the past few years; the whole "everything was Uncharted" thing from E3 this year was certainly not meant to be a compliment.

This isn't to say that Japan isn't guilty of the same practice (helloooooooo Monster Hunter clones), but half of those don't even make it over here.

 

[thetrin]

Maybe its just changing tastes but the most of the games I own are developed in the west. The ones I do own that are from japan are either Nintendo exclusives or said to be more western like in mechanics/style (souls games and bayonetta).

I don't think any of my steam games are eastern either. This is all pretty different from 2000-2005 when most of my games were made in the east.

Bayonetta and Dark Souls are pretty damn Japanese. Dark Souls is a spiritual successor to King's Field, a Japanese series, and Bayonetta is not just Very Japanese in tone and gameplay, but part of a genre dominated by Japanese games.

What about them seems western to you at all?

 

[Discotheque]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

Saying Team Ninja (sans Itagaki) and Square Enix are the best japanese studios is like saying Bioware and Treyarch are the best Western studios.

I don't even like Japanese games that much but I find it amazing that Binary Domain and Vanquish absolutely destroy the Uncharted and Gears of War series. And here's me thinking shooters were dominated by western developers, I guess it's just first person then. Makes me even more anxious for Devil's Third, if it ever gets out

 

[gryz]

One thing I like about Platinum (and a number of Japanese devs) is that they don't approach their games purely serious, meaning it has uniqueness, craziness, and interesting factors which make them fun and memorable.

Bayonetta was wacky, Catherine was crazy, KH is all out crazy, even FFXIII had a very interesting lore and location designs (FNC Mythos, not the story of FFXIII).

I dunno but IMO a lot of Western devs approach the games too seriously, making it as realistic as possible, which I don't find quite interesting.

Japan has kaizen, even the lowliest employee of the company is going to be trying their best and giving their all to the success of the product and the company. I think this extra effort tends to show through and gives the games more personality.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Yeah it is funny that there are people who just dismiss western design and say Japanese games are mechanically superior and so are better games. How these people objectively compare a Zelda and a Deus Ex and come to conclusions one way or another is just amazing. I would however say that the quality of some of the popular games from the previous gen have definitely fallen in my opinion. Final Fantasy , Resident evil, SH etc are just a small list in a huge pool of such cases. This coupled with the fact that there are many people who do not play handhelds has resulted in strengthening this impression of Japan's fall from grace.

Hasn't Resident Evils sales increased from last gen? Without including all of the rereleases, I believe RE5 handidly outsold RE4 GCN/PS2.

With that said I agree that a lot of major japanese franchises have declined. However, some of these are really old franchises where decline can be expected. Ignoring handheld games that actually sell really well in Japan and the West is silly. No one mentions all the major western ips that declined or died out last gen such as Prince of Persia, Ghost Recon, Tom Clancy, Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Tony Hawk, Spiderman, etc. While we can all look and point at Sega's decline look at THQ. They were huge during the PS2 days.

Its obvious at the beggining of the gen Japan, Square and Konami mainly, floundered. Id say Capcom just threw shit at the wall with wildly different results, still do. Western side finally caught up to the Japanese side. Major 3rd party Japanese franchise staples declined but a lot of other albeit smaller devs have risen from the ashes. I think this gen, Japan is in a transitional phase. Bigger guys who have been producing the same franchises for over 3 generations are declining meanwhile smaller dev teams are starting to rise and get success. A lot of Western devs canned their old franchises and started up new ones and a lot of them worked out. I think its time for the likes of Konami, Namco, Capcom and Square to can some franchises, cut back on some franchises and try new ips. Konami has essentially become the Metal Gear place. Square has spread themselves thin working on a lot of FF projects. Capcom rereleases and whores out SF and RE like no ones business but they have succesfully established some new franchises and has more diversity in game releases than the others.

 

[meta4]

Japan has kaizen, even the lowliest employee of the company is going to be trying their best and giving their all to the success of the product and the company. I think this extra effort tends to show through and gives the games more personality.

Lol

 

[M-PG71C]

Damn fucking straight, P* gets the credit from me, as usual.

 

[ULTROS!]

I'd also like to add that the indie scene in the West seem to bring more originality and flair into the Western industry. I have to admit but the indie scene is what's bringing out the goodness of the Western industry because a lot of them have their creative juices flowing even at a much lower budget.

The doujin scene (Japanese indie) on the other hand tend to make games based on their favorite animu/game characters (like this Tifa brawler I saw showing her half-naked during fights for no reason) or tend to be generic stuff, which isn't providing a better view on the modern Japanese video game industry. The common genres are fighters, platformers, and to some extent shmups. Surprisingly there are very few RPGs. There are a few gems though such as Recettear and Cave Story.

 

[cartman414]

As a defense, saying "the other guys make terrible things" is terrible itself.

Regarding the qualitative output, I've already posted on quantitative, I really don't see "Japanese games suck" as a popular narrative here. Hell, the equally stupid "lol dudebro" and "lol mobile" stances seem way more popular.

GAF is but a very vocal minority.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Aren't Japanese developers the ones who first started claiming that Japanese developers are behind western developers?

 

[Htown]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

Uh, no.

Your problem is that you're going by the studio NAMES instead of who is actually putting out the best games.

 

[metalslimer]

lol at calling Team Ninja and the current FF team the best teams in the industry. It would be like calling Ninja Theory the best western developer

 

[chertipros]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

Freaking Hyperbole much? Stop acting like you played either of those games because neither one is "garbage"

 

[demidar]

Guy misses the point entirely. The BEST western studios aren't putting out garbage like Final Fantasy XIII and Metroid Other M. The BEST Japanese studios are. That is the problem.

I don't think you know what "best" means. Maybe you should bow out of this thread and save face.

 

[soopaeternal]

couldn't agree more, Platinum

 

[zeelman]

Aren't Japanese developers the ones who first started claiming that Japanese developers are behind western developers?

They did, and its true. Not just sales figures alone, but in game design as well. They keep acting like they're in the PS2 generation, and they're struggling to change. Western developers are beating them because they adapted to the different hardware and made new games instead of trying to do the same thing as the previous gen but with better graphics. They also took advantage of the growing online multiplayer audience and digital distro to boost their sales. Japan still struggles with all of this.

Freaking Hyperbole much? Stop acting like you played either of those games because neither one is "garbage"

Nobody likes Other M.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

From an outsider's perspective, the best (BEST?!) western studios are putting out Prototype 2, Dragon Age 2, and Kinect Party.

From an outsider's perspective.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I have learned from this topic that Team Ninja Dog is the best of the best in game design.

My world has changed.

 

[ohlawd]

Platinum Games telling it like it is.

 

[zeelman]

I have learned from this topic that Team Ninja Dog is the best of the best in game design.

My world has changed.

Ninja Gaiden 3 is the greatest game ever made this gen.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'd be pissed at Inafune too if he threw my studio (and half the studios he's worked with) under the bus when they underperformed, took credit for them when they did well, outsourced half of my former company's games to fuel his Western fetishism, then abandoned his "dream project" to die a painful death so that he could follow his dream and serve as producer to a loli SPRG and a Ninja Gaiden spinoff by a Z-tier developer.

I actually don't think it was meant to be derisive. It's also pretty accurate. Inafune is an idea guy, that's his whole shtick and he seems proud of it. He's like a comic book character parody of a producer.

 

[Riposte]

I find it funny people call Kamiya arrogant. Some confidence, frankness, and little patience for the denizens of the internet doesn't make him a douche. A lot of dumb things have been said in this thread.

Saying Team Ninja (sans Itagaki) and Square Enix are the best japanese studios is like saying Bioware and Treyarch are the best Western studios.

I don't even like Japanese games that much but I find it amazing that Binary Domain and Vanquish absolutely destroy the Uncharted and Gears of War series. And here's me thinking shooters were dominated by western developers, I guess it's just first person then. Makes me even more anxious for Devil's Third, if it ever gets out

People seem to have this idea that TPS isn't a Japanese genre (in the sense "character action"/3D action is), probably because a lack of focus on multiplayer and the fact FPS is much more popular in the west and people just group Gears of War with Call of Duty. It is misguided because not only are many of the best (and in particular, the very best) and most varied TPS are Japanese, the most popular mechanics were introduced in Japanese games.

I have to correct you though. Calling "Square Enix" a studio is silly.

 

[Sylver]

Without Platinum naming terrible western studios this isn't funny. .

 

[Infinite]

I actually don't think it was meant to be derisive. It's also pretty accurate. Inafune is an idea guy, that's his whole shtick and he seems proud of it. He's like a comic book character parody of a producer.

I lol'd

 

[BocoDragon]

One thing I like about Platinum (and a number of Japanese devs) is that they don't approach their games purely serious, meaning it has uniqueness, craziness, and interesting factors which make them fun and memorable.

Bayonetta was wacky, Catherine was crazy, KH is all out crazy, even FFXIII had a very interesting lore and location designs (FNC Mythos, not the story of FFXIII).

I dunno but IMO a lot of Western devs approach the games too seriously, making it as realistic as possible, which I don't find quite interesting.

Japanese studios are very top-down. An auteur producer can dictate his ideas to his subordinates, who carry out his potentially wacky vision.

Western studios are more market-oriented and collaborative. They study market trends, collaborate on how to deliver on those, focus test the results and iterate on what they discover.

Both sides have strengths and weaknesses. The western model gives the market what it asks for. Its become very responsive at incorporating the latest control schemes and gameplay mechanics. But it's not always a good thing. To quote Henry Ford "if I asked the people what they want, they'd tell me faster horses" (or in this case: prettier Call of Duties).

With the Japanese model you risk stagnating in older ideas (some of these producers are still seeped in the ideas of the 80s and 90s), but it does allow for more wacky ideas to come down the pipeline. No market-orientation would ever have come up with the likes of Catherine or Bayonetta.

 

[Nibel]

So

What are the BEST western studios? I agree that FFXIII is one of the most fucked games I've ever played, but I want the answer to my question

 

[djtiesto]

Don't drag Sunn O))) into this! Since when are they a hipster band??

Most if not all of my favorite games this gen have come from Japan. Not sure where this mentality of Western games being amazeballs and J-games being crap came from or why. It's a point of view I find baffling and I'm glad Platinum Games is not having any of it.

I'm not really very knowledgeable on metal or anything, just recalling a few articles I've seen that labeled them that way. Here's an article from the Village Voice, a popular alternative weekly around here, http://www.villagevoice.com/content/printVersion/1557898/ you'll have to sscroll down a bit to read their entry for hipster metal. Also, this last.fm playlist.

Did not mean to offend! I've gotten called hipster before too when I definitely am not one...

Spoiler

for preferring Japanese games ironically enough

RPG, RPG, Moe, Moe, RPG, Moe, RPG, Moe, Moe, RPG. Rinse and repeat ad-nauseum.
Generalizing is fun.

IF ONLY there were that many RPGs coming out of Japan...

CD Projekt RED maybe? At least I think they should make the list. But lists like this are kind of silly I think.

Yup, CD Projekt RED is one of the few western studios I'll actually pay attention to. It's rare I like a western game so if I see what else that company made, unsurprisingly their other titles aren't my thing. DICE for example. Mirror's Edge is one of my top games of the generation, but you couldn't pay me to feign interest in Battlefield.

 

[7threst]

So

What are the BEST western studios? I agree that FFXIII is one of the most fucked games I've ever played, but I want the answer to my question

CD Projekt RED maybe? At least I think they should make the list. But lists like this are kind of silly I think.

 

[meta4]

Japanese studios are very top-down. An auteur producer can dictate his ideas to his subordinates, who carry out his potentially wacky vision.

Western studios are more market-oriented and collaborative. They study market trends, collaborate on how to deliver on those, focus test the results and iterate on what they discover.

Both sides have strengths and weaknesses. The western model gives the market what it asks for. Its become very responsive at incorporating the latest control schemes and gameplay mechanics. But it's not always a good thing. To quote Henry Ford "if I asked the people what they want, they'd tell me faster horses" (or in this case: prettier Call of Duties).

With the Japanese model you risk stagnating in older ideas (some of these producers are still seeped in the ideas of the 80s and 90s), but it does allow for more wacky ideas to come down the pipeline. No market-orientation would ever have come up with the likes of Catherine or Bayonetta.

And which market research would vouch for portal, journey, flower etc? See there is no point in generalizing stuff

 

[Shinta]

And which market research would vouch for portal, journey, flower etc? See there is no point in generalizing stuff

It doesn't apply to 100% of all games, but it's still not an inaccurate generalization. Valve in particular, I thought, prided themselves on their market research more than almost anyone else. EA is definitely going nuts in this area too. I just saw an article about how they're hiring this guy for FIFA to measure when people feel like they're going to stop playing so they make adjustments to the game around that time, and design psychological strategies to help you in the game and persuade you to buy things.

This is also why you see lots of comments about Japanese style games being "crazy" or "weird." I remember a quote from some western dev calling the gameplay design in Demon's Souls batshit insane or something to that effect. What he's saying is that the game is basically made counter to everything market research is telling him, but yet it somehow works. This happens a lot honestly. If people are going to constantly saddle Japan with that whole "What the fuck Japan!?" label for being zany and crazy, then we can't just pretend like it doesn't even exist in the rare case that it's turned into a positive.