red shoe paul
Banned
This Christmas? Ha. Hints by Christmas probably..
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Play.TM: Killzone 3 Due This Xmas - Will Support ARC (RUMOUR)
- Thread starter Baki
- Start date
Lonely1 said:
I dunno. I thought it would be easier. You're merging camera and aim control onto one input, having them seperate if anything seems more complex to me. It's what's worked so well for so long in PC land.
I was wondering if perhaps it's because this type of control is more a motion-track problem than a pointing one. Wiimote can always tell with accuracy where you are pointing, but its detection of the motions used to result in that 'point' is less than stable/accurate. At least til M+ arrived. So maybe that's why, to date, devs have leaned on that light-gun style of aiming since it maps to the data Wii produces accurately.
I dunno, I'm just curious about the trend of 'free cursor' aiming there. Like SSX I think I'd prefer any Arc support in a game like Killzone or Resistance to be fixed-centre if at all possible.
KZObsessed
Member
Firewire said:
Double experience weekend this weekend perfect time to come back!
I'm gonna go for the 750 hour mark :lol
Trailblaster said:
both 1. and 2. are impossible completly. You expect them to give 3 games with Wand? Wont happen. With LBP and Eypet, you will be set for the next half of year ;-).
I think they might price KZ2 edition for $80 for instance... which is not bad.
And I am increasingly believing that it might become standard with PS3 - if 360 is going to have it standard, PS3 might as well. They keep dropping the price of building PS3 constantly...
Lion Heart
Banned
Is it even possible to get a "heavy" feel to guns usiny motion controls? Every FPS would practically feel identical to one another which sounds boring to me. Ofcourse, you can have dual config but then you are splitting the online community. Wait and see I guess.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Always-honest said:
I am merely basing that on KZ2. It is easily my favorite console fps of this gen but I don't think there are many moments throughout the campaign that you think GG is doing anything to innovative they simply have taken the fps formula and polished it to a almost perfect sheen. Insomniac have always seemed to be a studio more willingly to spend the resources to experiment with gameplay.(Discounting R2) 3D for GG makes sense cause its within there mantra of creating the most atmospheric realized war imaginable. The wand not so much. At least to me. I could see insomniac coming up with all kinds of crazy weapons and gameplay scenarios just to support that thing.
KZObsessed
Member
Lagspike_exe said:Hm... I remember watching a slide from a Power Point presentation where they listed some facts from the development process (140 from GG + 50 Sony outsource, 18 months full production etc.), but I'm not sure if the October 2008. info is included with that slide, or I read it somewhere else, sorry.
This is interesting, though:
http://www.gamedev.net/columns/events/gdc2009/article.asp?id=1732
Conclusion quote:
Old info, but still interesting.
Yeah I remember the presentation, probably got it saved somewhere on my laptop
Thanx for the link! No idea what any of it meant but it was still and interesting read.
BruceLeeRoy said:
I said in the other thread that seeing as I LOVE the way KZ2 controls with the DS3, more than any other console shooter, I'm not too enthusiastic about KZ3 only using the ARC (if it's true) but I'd definitely be excited about Resistance 3 if it uses it. I think Insomniac could come up with some great ideas with all the crazy weapons they create. I think a Ratchet & Clank could be great with it as well! I remember the ARC creator mentioning that in the E3 presentation. I'd definitely like to see that.
FFObsessed said:That looks great and I'm sure it would work with a game like L4D but can you imagine it working for a game that feels like KZ2? I'm struggling to imagine it, but then I guess that's my problem, all I can do is imagine at this point.
I agree with you, that device looks awesome for L4D, CoD, Bioshock, ME... I would buy it right now if it was actually available and working as demonstrated there, but as I said earlier in this thread I don't want my KZ3 ruined by mandatory maracas or whatever, the feeling of the weapons in KZ2 is still unmatched thanks to the controls.
spwolf said:
I also think 1) is very unlikely.
2) is not so unlikely...but maybe not with a game like KZ3. Eyepet with the PSeye I think was 40. So a game with a eye and wand at 60 is totally possible. But maybe they wouldn't do it with KZ3...but on the other hand, it would accelerate penetration to bundle it with a game like that.
As for bundling with PS3...I think that actually could be right up Sony's alley as a way of avoiding a pricecut on the PS3. Sony LOVES bundling to maintain price. However I think it's very unlikely they'll put it in all PS3s as standard going forward. But a premium SKU with it? Sure. Better than just extra HDD space.
edit - to correct myself, at launch, eyepet was 50 with the pseye. A bit more than I said above, but still not even the full 60. If they could do that last xmas, I'm sure they'll be able to do game + eye + wand at 60 this xmas. Again though, whether they'd do it with a arc-supporting KZ3 is another question...
Always-honest
Banned
BruceLeeRoy said:
true, but they did experiment with a lot of things technically
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
FFObsessed said:
It definitely seems like a more natural fit for Insomniac.
Always-honest said:
Exactly and that's why the 3D rumor makes perfect sense. GG are all about presentation.
KZObsessed
Member
Lince said:
They could do great things, keep things "weighty", keep the same mechanics of having to control the spread with minimal auto-aim and continue to exaggerate every bullet impact for extra satisfaction and then make things easy enough and responsive enough for all the people whining about how KZ2 was "unplayable" :lol
Still, I'll be skeptical that it would be as enjoyable as KZ2 until the day I try it for myself. And even then I'm sure it'll take a while to really get comfortable with.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Zen said:
The numbers I gave are accurate NPD numbers as of last November; I expect both would be low by 20k-40k because of this holiday season. As of right now, KZ2 is above Resistance 2, but by less than 100k. I would also note that Anihawk has repeatedly specified that, hypothetically speaking were he posting actual NPD numbers which he doesn't admit to have done, he would round broadly, including to the nearest hundred thousand.
Honestly it's moot anyway because even if we just go off your exact numbers and assume I'm just inventing things out of thin air, which I'm not, your numbers still reflect that Killzone 2 sales are above R2 sales but not by a substantial amount, which was the exact point I made.
Always-honest
Banned
isn't the "bullet" demo thingy in 3D allready?BruceLeeRoy said:
but to say they are all about presentation.. i dunno. They needed to build a lot from scratch just to make this game. Now that they did all this work, it's time to have fun with what they allready have. The'll improve on the presentation no doubt, but they also have more time for other stuff.
Not sure I follow concerns about arc controls with 'weighty' kz controls.
Your right analog stick has no more 'weight' to it than Arc...
How the camera/aim respond to input from either a stick or a arc is entirely up to the software, be it more 'weightily', more loosely or whatever.
Your right analog stick has no more 'weight' to it than Arc...
How the camera/aim respond to input from either a stick or a arc is entirely up to the software, be it more 'weightily', more loosely or whatever.
gofreak said:
I think the point is, if you are going 1:1 you have little room to play with acceleration and stuff.
Example:
Holding an heavy RPG and rotating the camera with the stick, camera acceleration is different compared to when doing the same while holding a gun. Hence you get the weight feeling.
You can't do that with 1:1 tracking. If I point somewhere, online weapon has to react immediately or you get a delay feeling.
Baki
Member
Stumpokapow said:
Killzone 2 has not hit a million in the US because Sony began bundling it during summer (to get rid of 80GB PS3's).
Killzone 2 hit 620,000 in the US after 33 days of sale. Obviously Killzone 2 is not as successful as Uncharted 2 (which sits at 3.5M worldwide) but it was their #2 1st party title for 2009.
That's not how it works on the current free pointer games. You move the wand (small wrist rotations will do) in order drag the cursor, like a mouse. A slower cursor (one that requires bigger movements) would give a heavier weapon feel, like the one you are describing.TTP said:
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
RJT said:
:lol I don't agree but damn that was funny.
Lonely1 said:
well we hope this will be true 1:1 mapping of the control, so movement is up to you.
Thats why there is big bright ball on top of it, so ps3 eye can track it properly in space.
It should not be gesture based control, at least to my understanding (although gestures are possible of course, just that you have high precision pointer there which you can use for FPS).
Baki
Member
gofreak said:
But that would seriously eat into the profit margin of a large title like Killzone 3. It would require more units sold to break even.
Sony right now is relying on S/W to break even. A title like Killzone 3 is guaranteed to sell 3M+ worldwide. Adding ARC support may increase the penetration of the ARC but at $60, they will barely make any money off the software.
I do agree that Sony needs (and will probably introduce) a $60 bundle. But I believe it will be for a game that is much cheaper to make (EYEPET 2/ARC Sports etc..).
However if they do release a bundle for Killzone 3, $69.99 would be a pretty good price point. Not too much that it would put off consumers (hey, spend $10 more for an ARC) and not too little that it would severely cut into the profit margins of Killzone 3. Hey, they may end up selling a lot more KZ3 software because of the bundle.
spwolf said:
Well, one of my fears is to developers get stuck with this 1-1 idea. There's no need for "properly space tracking" of the wand, other than use it to abstract a more accurate and faster way of controlling the game, like current Wii fps do.
If Arc support is limited to a 1-1 SP mode, a light gun mode, it would be cool for a time. But, as other people had said, it wouldn't be the way I would want to spent endless hours in MP. I would be very disappointed this was the case.
A real question is if Arc and Gamepad gamers will be separated or not. I don't mind a filter but if anything I hope it's mixed. For us who have played/researched Wii fps games it's clear that it isn't just point and click to kill (that's m/k setup), natural handshake comes into play. It feels really natural though, it's very fun and with proper quality games I'm convinced it will be the best way to play fps titles without needing a surface and hunched shoulders.
TTP said:
Sure, but this is no different to complaints about analog stick controls from some, in KZ2. There were plenty of folks talking about the controls feeling 'laggy' etc. because of how they filtered input
An analog stick has a certain loosness/tension to it that's physically 'built-in' but devs play with the response to that all the time, so the in-game reaction doesn't necessarily match the physical reality of the stick. Maybe with something like the wand there's more of an expectation that your motion will be mapped directly, so devs that 'break' that expectation will have more pushback from gamers...but it's techncially no different to filtering input from analog sticks which they do all the time.
All that said, I think if the aim was fixed at the display's centre it would be less difficult to adopt a weightier camera with the wand than if you had a free cursor that floated around the screen...the latter I think does bring greater expectation still about a light-gun type of response (i.e. fast and fluid) that might be more difficult to map to the type of feedback Guerrilla wants in kz.
Lonely1 said:
I dont get what you mean with "bigger movements". If, say, I point the wand towards the upper right corner of the screen I want the in-game cursor to point there immediately. If you want to add weight to this by requiring "bigger movements" does that mean I'd have to point the wand towards the ceiling to get the in-game cursor in the upper right corner of the screen?
Rapping Granny
Banned
-viper- said:
Basically, and need to come out with a game to bundle with it for cheap, like they have for the current controller.
Heavy weapons feel can be simulated with slower camera movement.
The cross-hair will still move at the same speed but the camera angle won't be pushed around as fast.
When you pull up your rocket launcher in KZ3 you won't be able to turn on a dime bit with your uzi you can hose a 360degree area with ease.
The cross-hair will still move at the same speed but the camera angle won't be pushed around as fast.
When you pull up your rocket launcher in KZ3 you won't be able to turn on a dime bit with your uzi you can hose a 360degree area with ease.
user friendly
Member
Are you serious!!!!FFObsessed said:Double experience weekend this weekend perfect time to come back!
I'm gonna go for the 750 hour mark :lol
Hell Yes! Will have my CiC for sure.
Oh, please don't make Arc mandatory.
gofreak said:
I think it is actually. When you tilt a stick you initiate a software-based process that looks at how far you have pushed the stick and applies acceleration to the on-screen gun accordingly. In KZ2, that acceleration varies depending on the weapon you are holding.
With 1:1 mapping you physically decide the speed and the acceleration yourself when rotating your wrist. If a given software process comes into play to simulate weight by toying around with acceleration it inevitably ends up breaking the 1:1 mapping.
That said, I do believe there is still some room for faking weight via acceleration even in a 1:1 environment. After all it's just milliseconds we are talking about.
I wish I had a Wand SDK to test all this stuff :/
Really difficult to do so by just thinking about how it would feel.
Man said:
This assumes the cross-hair ain't fixed in the middle of the screen tho, right? Hm... perhaps they can toy around with that. Like
Uzi = cross-hair fixed in the middle of the screen
Rifle = cross-hair not so fixed in the middle of the screen
Rocket launcher = cross-hair gets even more looser
hm..., yeah I think this would do.
Trailblaster
Banned
gofreak said:
I wish we knew how mush it cost Sony to manufactor a DualShock3. Seeing as an Arc is basiclly 'half' a DS3 with no analog and a glowing led ball and only one rumble motor it should cost less to make then a DS3.
As for the PSeye, the MSRP is 40 bucks, but that think must be marked up like crazy.
IMO Sony could easily get them bundled in the stores at 50 to 60 bucks.
user friendly
Member
Where's the happy B-day Killzone 2 thread?