Wow, she's a dickhead.
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Playhaven dev fired for sexual jokes after SendGrid marketer outs him on Twitter
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Wow, she's a dickhead.
I was going to say something like this, but Mumei's already said it better than I could.
Moral Panic
Member
great article.
Slackbladder
Member
Good read. Makes a lot of sense.
Zoe
Member
He can try to get unemployment, but if this wasn't the only reason they fired him, then his claim would likely be denied. Plus, he and his coworker were representatives of their company at the event, so that alone could be reasonable cause.
captainnapalm
Member
From what I read this wasn't the kind of case you're describing at all. He clarified the jokes were in no way degrading towards women. She is just suffering from a severe case of entitlement. And if she'd bothered to speak to these guys before trying to shame them on twitter to her adoring acolytes, she would have avoided the loss of two jobs.
Those jokes weren't sexist. They didn't say that "they would use their dongles to fork her ports". It seems that they were "haha, that's a big dongle haha" type of jokes. That's not sexist in any form. It's unprofessional and childish, but not sexist. Not sexist at all. She just heard those 2 guys talking (not about her) and "got offended", whatever that is. I guess they were just bored and that made them laugh a bit. And she seems to be like a "no fun allowed.jpg" type of person. Oh wait, she actually did jokes WAY WORSE in public (twitter) including actual sexist "jokes".
She should rather complain about names like "dongles" and "female / male connectors". Because those are pretty stupid (and somewhat funny) already. Why are connectors sexualized?
I mean IF she actually said something directly and they replied with "you need some forking", then yes, her actions would have been okay. But this? This is stupid. Where will it end, if such public shaming is okay? Are you allowed to laugh at all? Or even smile at someone? Or smile at all? Or say that you need to go to the toilet? Maybe that's seen as sexual harassment by someone. Maybe someone will get offended and you get fired, so better act like a robot.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Forking a repo? What language is this?
Zoe
Member
A repository contains all of the code for a project. Forking is taking a copy of that project and going in your own direction.
Messofanego
Banned
Thanks.
No matter what, no one deserves rape and death threats. That blog is right, no one won here.
A sad trend I'm noticing in the gaming industry, and tech industry at-large, is the increasing amount of in-fighting and self-destruction over who is more misogynistic/discriminating/whatever.
I've worked in the finance, publishing and tech industries, the first two of which (finance especially) are so, so much worse when it comes to blatant misogyny, harassment and discrimination - to the point where most of these stories making heading news in the tech/gaming press wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.
I'm not saying we should stop trying to better ourselves, but for such a relatively new industry, it's trying to tackle a massive, socially endemic problem in some really good and head-on ways. There is really no need for the finger-pointing and aggressive persecution of anyone who makes a stupid mistake.
I've worked in the finance, publishing and tech industries, the first two of which (finance especially) are so, so much worse when it comes to blatant misogyny, harassment and discrimination - to the point where most of these stories making heading news in the tech/gaming press wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.
I'm not saying we should stop trying to better ourselves, but for such a relatively new industry, it's trying to tackle a massive, socially endemic problem in some really good and head-on ways. There is really no need for the finger-pointing and aggressive persecution of anyone who makes a stupid mistake.
tycoonheart
Member
No, she knew exactly what she was doing. She wanted to publicly humiliate the guys and she wanted their company to punish them. To what extent, I don't know, but that is the reason for posting a tweet about it with the company's hashtag.
Zoe
Member
The hashtag was for the conference. She did call their company out as a sponsor in her blog post though.
Edit: actually I don't think she names the company, just says they were a sponsor. I'd check but I don't want to give her any more hits.
CommonSense
Banned
I don't even know who these people are.
This uber PC culture is starting to piss me off. A joke is a joke.
This uber PC culture is starting to piss me off. A joke is a joke.
+1 Amanda Blum; she has the right of it.
However I don't agree with her on one point; that the woman is not responsible for the firing. She is directly responsible, she may not have intended, or wanted it, but she should have foreseen that it could potentially lead to some consequences. She obviously knows the power of social media and has used it before. She is directly responsible for her own and his firing.
And no matter how much of a looney she is, she does not deserve Rape or Death threats. Some small amount of A-holes making everyone look bad.
However I don't agree with her on one point; that the woman is not responsible for the firing. She is directly responsible, she may not have intended, or wanted it, but she should have foreseen that it could potentially lead to some consequences. She obviously knows the power of social media and has used it before. She is directly responsible for her own and his firing.
And no matter how much of a looney she is, she does not deserve Rape or Death threats. Some small amount of A-holes making everyone look bad.
Yeah. All these sentiments that she was just venting frustration is bullshit. She knew what the outcome of her actions would be, or she should have known. She's not naive, in fact she seems pretty...difficult to deal with.
What the guys did, immature. What she did, stupid. What the reaction is, ridiculous.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
How crazily rational and fair!
tycoonheart
Member
Well we don't know what was actually said. we know what the involved parties say was said, both sides. It still leaves some questions and I see people judging her as a hypocrite because of what's on her twitter page. It's possible that her intention was to depict sexism in the workplace. It seems like she has an active blog that goes all over the place, so something bawdy on a twitter page isn't really any kind of conviction. Was she offended or was she just being antagonistic and whiny? Would they minimize their actual comments in recall? Would they have realized that they were offending someone sitting near them? Might they have actually been acting offensively and not knowing it? I've seen it happen, so I know it's possible. I also know in these situations, that one or both sides could skew the actual details of the events, either deliberately or in error.
I see some people being defensive of them, some people being antagonistic towards her, and maybe unfairly so. The companies should not have fired anyone. Especially in a kneejerk reaction like this. If they wanted to combat public shaming and potentially sexualized locker room comments in a mixed gender professional setting, while setting the proper tone, they should have required public apologies(in their own chosen formats) from both sides, sensitivity and social identity training for everyone, and squelched this thing while being like straight up Bosses. Instead they acted like...they reacted instead of acted. There wasn't any control, just punishment and bad press all around. Maybe she was a problem child and she had to go. Maybe there was a chattering class and people aligned against her after hearing what she did, and no one would work with her. We'll never know. You can't unpop a cork.
IS public shaming ok? Well, yes and no. There's a place for it, right or wrong. And it's been used for good and bad intent. It's accepted. Did she have a right to sit there at work and not hear anything remotely perceivable as even latently sexual? Did the group of guys have a right to be comfortable and make jokes and horseplay during the conference? I'm sure the companies will just say the people involved broke company policies and were let go, but it all still looks retaliatory, and now we just have a mess of problems. A guy out of a job, and a woman, also out of a job receiving death and rape threats.
My main issue with her and this situation is; She made sexual comments on twitter while at the conference. Someone could have easily shoulder surfed her in the act of typing the comment. Logically, to me anyways, eaves dropping and shoulder surfing are similar if not almost completely the same. If what they did was offensive, then why is what she did not held in the same vein?
I've met people like this in the tech community and they are complete cancer. Usually they are people of inferior quality, but have a chip on their shoulder for having made it in spite of the world around them. They tend to look for situations to make some noise and generally make work difficult and poison otherwise fine work environments. As for her being the saving grace of women in tech, that's BS. I don't think most women in tech, other fields as well, want to be seen merely as a woman entering the field, but as competent individuals without regard for their gender.
Adria has obviously done a great deal to announce that she is a woman in a male dominated industry and rather than striving to be seen as a competent individual regardless of those gender lines. She has made it a point to announce she is a woman and push focus on some oppressive force that in most cases doesn't really exist. Case in point; who in the whole situation is the oppressor? She arbitrarily decided what rules apply to those guys, and make a situation about it. While all the while engaging in the behavior herself. The real issue is her belief that all people(probably only males) outside her circle are somehow looking down on her, and this last little episode was her retribution. It is unfortunate incident and doesn't serve to make anyone, male or female, more comfortable about working together.
I've met people like this in the tech community and they are complete cancer. Usually they are people of inferior quality, but have a chip on their shoulder for having made it in spite of the world around them. They tend to look for situations to make some noise and generally make work difficult and poison otherwise fine work environments. As for her being the saving grace of women in tech, that's BS. I don't think most women in tech, other fields as well, want to be seen merely as a woman entering the field, but as competent individuals without regard for their gender.
Adria has obviously done a great deal to announce that she is a woman in a male dominated industry and rather than striving to be seen as a competent individual regardless of those gender lines. She has made it a point to announce she is a woman and push focus on some oppressive force that in most cases doesn't really exist. Case in point; who in the whole situation is the oppressor? She arbitrarily decided what rules apply to those guys, and make a situation about it. While all the while engaging in the behavior herself. The real issue is her belief that all people(probably only males) outside her circle are somehow looking down on her, and this last little episode was her retribution. It is unfortunate incident and doesn't serve to make anyone, male or female, more comfortable about working together.
Zoe
Member
They removed their posts and posts by others from the FB page.
Edit: their blog post is still up though: http://blog.sendgrid.com/a-difficult-situation/
Snkfanatic
Banned
Today I learned what Shoulder Surfing means. Makes sense...
moka
Member
If she really was offended by what was a private joke between two friends, then she should have informed the conference staff discreetly, they are well equipped to handle situations like these. She decided against this and instead, took a picture of them, and then tweeted it to her 10,000 or so followers, publicly shaming them as well as calling them 'ass clowns'.
Secondly, the joke they made was probably sexual, not sexist. This is important, especially because of the sexual joke she made earlier suggesting someone stuff socks down their pants for the TSA.
The guy definitely shouldn't have been fired, Playhaven over-reacted but at the time, they probably saw it as a good idea since everyone was still talking about how sexist he is and how awesome Adria is for pointing it out and being a hero for all women in tech.
Regardless of why SendGrid fired Adria (because they think she handled the situation wrong or because they were receiving multiple threats from Anonymous), I think it was the right decision. She deserved it. She's was a Developer Evangelist (apparently this job exists), and since she doesn't know how to interact or deal with other people she definitely wasn't suitable for the position. She can't even laugh at, or even brush off an albeit, childish joke.
Many people who have dealt with her in the past are now coming out of the woodwork to reveal how hard she is to work with in general.
It is a very unfortunate situation in which everyone lost and she most certainly didn't help women in tech.
Secondly, the joke they made was probably sexual, not sexist. This is important, especially because of the sexual joke she made earlier suggesting someone stuff socks down their pants for the TSA.
The guy definitely shouldn't have been fired, Playhaven over-reacted but at the time, they probably saw it as a good idea since everyone was still talking about how sexist he is and how awesome Adria is for pointing it out and being a hero for all women in tech.
Regardless of why SendGrid fired Adria (because they think she handled the situation wrong or because they were receiving multiple threats from Anonymous), I think it was the right decision. She deserved it. She's was a Developer Evangelist (apparently this job exists), and since she doesn't know how to interact or deal with other people she definitely wasn't suitable for the position. She can't even laugh at, or even brush off an albeit, childish joke.
Many people who have dealt with her in the past are now coming out of the woodwork to reveal how hard she is to work with in general.
It is a very unfortunate situation in which everyone lost and she most certainly didn't help women in tech.
One simple question:
Austin Powers
this scene (NSFW?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiWQZhUmmRw
It's funny. But is this sexist to you at all? It just isn't. It's a joke about different words for male genitalia. There is no sexism involved at all.
Yeah. And the man, who lost his job, will be fine tomorrow as well smh
Although I agree with your point, I do feel the need to point out that pycon in particular has a relatively large number of female attendees. I think this year it was around 20%. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a big step forward for these kinds of conferences.
Also, it's not fair to call out PlayHaven for firing the person who was outed by Adria. There was almost certainly more than just this single event that resulted in his dismissal. Perhaps they had issue with his work already, or there were previous similar incidents. Or perhaps not. We're not privy to all the information that goes into that kind of decision. Additionally, two people were complained about, but only one got fired.
Also, pycon didn't boot them from the conference. Their side of the story was taken, they apologized, and they were allowed to go about their day at the conference. Of all the responses, pycon's was the best. In fact I'd say they handled everything extremely well.
Manmademan
Member
Mumei- speaking as an african american this view is completely off.
Why? sure. it's true that cultural messages, policies, beliefs etc are skewed to whites in a broad sense, as they are the majority across the country. turn on NBC/CBS/ABC etc, you're going to get the cultural messages white america likes to promote.
On a smaller scale though? this isn't true. Think of white children in predominantly black schools, or white families in predominantly black neighborhoods. In THOSE situations, the policies, cultural norms, messages, etc they get from peers, cops, and neighbors skew in favor of the minority. Black families and authority figures can and do shut out white families they see as outsiders. It's less common, but isn't any less despicable.
I grew up in a black suburban neighborhood, went to black schools, and saw it firsthand. It doesn't matter what the television says if you're being bullied for being different everyday, and in some cases "different" means being white.
This woman is full of shit. racism is racism.
Is the question whether or not you or I thought it was sexist? Or whether she did, and whether her feelings had any validity?
So this is a screencap taken by Adria herself? That's the only way her profile pic would be showing up next to the comment box. It seems unlikely they'd un-fire her after this whole fiasco, and it would look poorly on the company if they released a statement stating why they had to fire her, and then re-hired her.
AbsolutBro
Member
Look, if you can't at least chuckle at the word 'dongle' I don't know what to say.
On a more serious note, I have little sympathy for passive aggressive bullshit and this Adria seems like she lives for it. Between the conference she pulled out of and the quiet seething over a fucking t-shirt she just seems like she would rather play the victim and bitch to the internet than actually have an adult conversation about something bothering her. This time it bit her in the ass. Good.
On a more serious note, I have little sympathy for passive aggressive bullshit and this Adria seems like she lives for it. Between the conference she pulled out of and the quiet seething over a fucking t-shirt she just seems like she would rather play the victim and bitch to the internet than actually have an adult conversation about something bothering her. This time it bit her in the ass. Good.
Let's just ask the dictionary.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sexist
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women. NOPE
2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender. NOPE
So, no. No sexism involved. Case closed.
She got offended by this? If that was really the case, then she is a hypocrite based on her previous behaviour on public twitter, especially because at least one tweet actually fit the description of sexist. Twitter is not e-mail or a private chat or a private conversation or whispering. It's actually screaming out loud into the world.
you forgot to bang your gavel.
can you just say for the record that you see no possibility for an interpretation of sexism or cultural expectation of this woman to endure distraction via sexualized jokes by other employees while on the job?
If it was Steve Jobs who made the tweet, some would be calling him a hardass and a bad ass.
vv: hm..no? er..well why. sexism doesn't always mean something offensive or victimizing to women. If someone kept making penis jokes towards a guy and making him feel uncomfortable, that could also be considered sex based harassment.
I'd say the sexism in this case is the sexualization, however latent, of the environment, and the casual acceptance of that. I'm not even committing to saying it was sexist, I'm just saying a case could have been made.
can you just say for the record that you see no possibility for an interpretation of sexism or cultural expectation of this woman to endure distraction via sexualized jokes by other employees while on the job?
If it was Steve Jobs who made the tweet, some would be calling him a hardass and a bad ass.
vv: hm..no? er..well why. sexism doesn't always mean something offensive or victimizing to women. If someone kept making penis jokes towards a guy and making him feel uncomfortable, that could also be considered sex based harassment.
I'd say the sexism in this case is the sexualization, however latent, of the environment, and the casual acceptance of that. I'm not even committing to saying it was sexist, I'm just saying a case could have been made.
Zoe
Member
Wouldn't calling it sexist imply that men couldn't be offended by a sexual joke?
If they had said "i'd like to bend her over and let her taste my big dongle while you fork her depository" i'm sure we would have known by now.
I've made dongle jokes.
So, guy on stage says "So our project is all about female outreach..."
guy in row behind you "heheh female out reach, get it? haha I'd like to fork his repo. I wonder if my dongle would fit? Do we have update codes?" And so on.
total fiction, but that's just a guess, and if it was enough to distract, annoy, and offend. I could see someone deciding to go off.
and i'm not really here to defend what this woman did. Just wanted to make an observation or two.
I'm just getting caught up with this, and wow, what a clusterfuck.
There's absolutely an issue with sexism in the development community, and sexual humor is a part of what can make it seem like development will always be a boys' club. It's easy to see how throwaway off-color comments can become infuriating when they seem ever-present. And there are plenty of ways to fight the good fight, starting withsaypointing out to someone that they're making you uncomfortable without even realizing it. I'm not sure that "self-aggrandizing surprise public name-and-shame" is anywhere on that list.
I mean, read this passage from Adria's post (emphasis mine):
Confronting someone directly can be uncomfortable, but there's a higher chance of a positive outcome for all parties, and you're more justified in taking further steps (say, notifying conference organizers) if the situation isn't resolved.
There's absolutely an issue with sexism in the development community, and sexual humor is a part of what can make it seem like development will always be a boys' club. It's easy to see how throwaway off-color comments can become infuriating when they seem ever-present. And there are plenty of ways to fight the good fight, starting withsaypointing out to someone that they're making you uncomfortable without even realizing it. I'm not sure that "self-aggrandizing surprise public name-and-shame" is anywhere on that list.
I mean, read this passage from Adria's post (emphasis mine):
"That's not cool." Three words in that moment would have saved a couple of jobs and a ton of vitriol. Instead, she decided to go nuclear and make a couple of unwitting developers the poster boys for everything that's wrong with tech culture. And unlock the HEROINE OF PROGRAMMING achievement at the same time, apparently.
Confronting someone directly can be uncomfortable, but there's a higher chance of a positive outcome for all parties, and you're more justified in taking further steps (say, notifying conference organizers) if the situation isn't resolved.
Sexism has a defined meaning. If people use that word in situations, that are not meeting that definition, then those people are wrong and should probably grab a dictionary. Would you also argue in favor of her, if she got offended by someone saying that he needed to pee and that she found that to be sexist?
Maybe she also thinks that sexism is only possible when a male does it.
What? Steve Jobs? And why should that be a different situation? If you publically shame people on stuff you found "offensive", but posted even worse crap INTO THE PUBLIC via twitter, then yes, you are a hypocrite. It doesn't matter who you are.
Worse yet - she tried to change the whole story to "ohhh, I only did it for the young female developer". In this case, she probably should stop tweeting as well. Or like I said - it seems she only sees anything males do as sexism. If a female does exactly the same (or even worse), it's totally fine. Would fit her tweet about racism as well.
but that would be unpossible.
Liamario
Banned
He shouldn't have lost his job. The jokes were harmless. She might have had a point if they were directed at her.
People have a right to be offended, but that's as far as it goes- unless the jokes are aimed directly at them. She should have just pulled him aside and told him how she felt. I find her over sensitivity to be offensive.
I'm glad she was given the boot; taste of her own medicine.
People have a right to be offended, but that's as far as it goes- unless the jokes are aimed directly at them. She should have just pulled him aside and told him how she felt. I find her over sensitivity to be offensive.
I'm glad she was given the boot; taste of her own medicine.
ElectricBlue187
Member
I hope they are suing her for defamation. I would.
Joel Was Right
If you smell burning, it's probably the generators acting up. Report it anyway.
Even if she wasn't fired, I don't know how she could have continued to work as a dev evangelist - a role that required her to form relationships with the largely male dev community, many who are no doubt upset by the dismissal of the one who made the joke
Of course a joke containing the words "dongle" and "forking a repo" can be sexist. My point was that if they really were crudely directed at the presenter like that, we would know. Because she would have said so. It's not like she was holding back...
faceless007
Member
Defamation has to be untrue. Did she say anything untrue?
Escape Goat
Member
Not if you're in public. Theres no reasonable assumption of privacy in a conference hall.
faceless007
Member
She didn't "present them as sexist." She tweeted that they were making sexual jokes, which is true.
I'm not defending one side or the other, I'm just saying that there's no legal grounds here.
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