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[Aaronrules380]

Me too.

By having these two games within it, the SP for kids and the MP for people who want to sink tons of time into the complicated breeding and hidden stats and special training and stuff, both are hurt to various degree.

A portion of people who want to play multi wonder would like an even playing field option that takes the time investment of the raising aspect out and has a focus on in battle strategy, while those of us who want to play SP only because we don't want to invest that time and be compelled to choose our team based on what's viable to win instead of aesthetic preferences, are left with a kids game that only becomes engaging to play with rulesets from the internet like Nuzlocke and falls flat as an RPG from a story (characters, plot, lore, and dialog) perspective.

Evs and IVS have always been in Pokemon, as has the competitive aspect.

Also, people exaggerate the time needed to breed and raise a competitive team nowadays. Really, the biggest barrier to entry is learning the strategy and how to play competitively, which will never go away and will always be at least somewhat time consuming. The amount of time it takes to learn to get good will always be far, far higher than the time needed to get useable pokemon

 

[Firemind]

To me the fun was that I didn't have to waste my time building a team.

then you could play on one of the simulators

to me, using a team that you have no information on and no experience with is equivalent to playing chess blindfolded

 

[Crayolan]

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/

Until gamefreak drastically simplifies the process, Pokemon Showdown completely invalidates in-game competitive team building. Just use that.

 

[Aaronrules380]

then you could play on one of the simulators

to me, using a team that you have no information on is like playing chess blindfolded

Uh, you choose which team you rent. It's hardly no information

 

[GamerJM]

then you could play on one of the simulators

to me, using a team that you have no information on and no experience with is like playing chess blindfolded

I know I should play a simulator, but I'm kind of afraid to on account of the fact that I know how much of a timesink it would be for me. Same goes for competitive Pokemon in general I guess.

 

[Aaronrules380]

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/

Until gamefreak drastically simplifies the process, Pokemon Showdown completely invalidates in-game competitive team building. Just use that.

I feel like a lot of the complainers would still complain because actually being good takes way more time and learning than building a team nowadays

 

[Firemind]

Uh, you choose which team you rent. It's hardly no information

can you see the ivs, evs, items and natures? because that's the whole point of competitive battling

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Now, it really isn't if you're playing it casually like I always have, but I've just started checking things like breeding and other stuff, and it feels like so much information. It's overwhelming.

Like I look at that stuff, and I might want to try to have a better team, but then don't know if I wanna go through the trouble.

Don't swallow a pig whole if you are not a python.

Get a knife and fork.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Agreed.





You guys really need to stop enabling this idea.

The single player will always be easy as long as you can win by overleveling or abusing items like revives and full restores. I feel like all the difficulty settings would add to the main campaign is grinding and tedium

 

[Koren]

Also gets rid of breeding (unless for hidden power I'm assuming) since you can hyper train a pokemon to get easy perfect IVs in those games

I'm still not convinced it's that clear-cut:
- as far as I know, we don't know how easy you can collect bottle caps
- getting a pokemon at lvl 100 will be longer than breeding a perfect one

I think it's useful to avoid SR the legendaries (or if you want to use a shiny), but breeding will probably still be faster.

you should be aware that most players just cheat perfect stats for their pokemon, which is understandable because few people want to waste 100s of hours on this ridicules mechanic

I don't really see how it's different from people grinding in MMORPG, for example, but obviously cheating is a way to avoid spending time building pokemons. That being said, I still don't understand the "100s of hours" when getting a perfect pokemon is a matter of minutes. I think many broadly overestimate the time needed (unless they want 6-IV, but I really doubt it's useful).

Good news: Sun and Moon will allow you to play with rental teams created by other players

What? Now, that's great... I love breeding pokemons, but I don't care for battling, so this could be a great mechanics...

 

[Aaronrules380]

can you see the ivs, evs, items and natures? because that's the whole point of competitive battling

I'd imagine you could see items, natures, and stats (perhaps not exact IV/EV numbers, but in the end of the day it's the actual stats that matter), plus I imagine most people will provide descriptions of the team that include that stuff when they put the qr codes up)

 

[Big Chungus]

those poor kids

 

[Aaronrules380]

I'm still not convinced it's that clear-cut:
- as far as I know, we don't know how easy you can collect bottle caps
- getting a pokemon at lvl 100 will be longer than breeding a perfect one

I think it's useful to avoid SR the legendaries (or if you want to use a shiny), but breeding will probably still be faster.


I don't really see how it's different from people grinding in MMORPG, for example, but obviously cheating is a way to avoid spending time building pokemons. That being said, I still don't understand the "100s of hours" when getting a perfect pokemon is a matter of minutes. I think many broadly overestimate the time needed (unless they want 6-IV, but I really doubt it's useful).


What? Now, that's great... I love breeding pokemons, but I don't care for battling, so this could be a great mechanics...

At the very least you could use the bottlecaps to get a 6 IV ditto which makes the breeding process a lot, lot faster for anything you want to breed

 

[Koren]

can you see the ivs, evs, items and natures? because that's the whole point of competitive battling

Well, if you can create QR codes for your pokemons, I'll definitively put details about IVs, EVs, nature and item alongside the QS code... I'm sure I won't be alone.

 

[Acerac]

You should've been around during the 3rd generation. These days EVs are easy peasy, and IVs are pretty easy to manipulate too (perfect IV Ditto, anyone?)

First poster had it, if you het a friend who helps you out with a cheated pokemon it's a lot easier to make teams. Oddly, it's considered impolite in the community to hack your own pokemon but considered wise to use other, obviously cheated pokemon to make your team.

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

That's the problem though. If you want any sort of challenge you have to play competitively and if you want to be any good you pretty much have to go all in.

Well, I mean, that's how it is with any fighting game with a competitive scene.

 

[MannyToons]

ORAS (and i think XY) added colors to the natures bonus and penalty on the stats if you look closely on the for example sp. atk, its either blue or red if its not the regular color.

EV training with a decent setup takes like 5min if you know where to go(look up horde EV training spots on google for the game you like)

IVs have the guy who says the stats are outstanding if they are perfect(which all wild babies and legendaries have a minimum of 3 stats)

Sun and Moon adds the option to press x or y on the stats screen, to actually see the effort points you have given a pokemon, making it probably alot easier to understand (ive done it since sapphire, so can't tell, but its really convinient to be able to check that).

Also gets rid of breeding (unless for hidden power I'm assuming) since you can hyper train a pokemon to get easy perfect IVs in those games, meaning you can use the ingame team you beat the game with to test the competive battles at first.

I believe it was first added in HeartGold/SoulSilver. I'll never forget it. It was amazing at the time.

 

[Koren]

At the very least you could use the bottlecaps to get a 6 IV ditto which makes the breeding process a lot, lot faster for anything you want to breed

That, definitively... I found a 5-IV one in AS (and a bunch of 4-IV), it's really handy.

It's just that if people think hyper training will speed up the process (compared to breeding with a perfect ditto), they may be disappointed.

 

[Acerac]

Well, I mean, that's how it is with any fighting game with a competitive scene.

You don't have to spend dozens of hours on tasks entirely unrelated to fighting games to play a fighting game, no. Breeding pokemon is tedious nonsense, at least in fighting games you are perfecting your timing and spacing.

 

[Cheeseman Battitude]

I played Blue back in the day and I didn't play another until X or Y, can't remember which I bought. It was very complicated.

 

[Unicorn]

This is my biggest problem: no middle ground.

Main game is a breeze and requires next to no thought or effort. Plow through it never switching out between a couple Pokemon or customizing them or the game in any real way.

Then you want to dig just a little deeper and it blows your mind, and not in a good way.

The middle ground is pokemon showdown.

 

[Nightbird]

It's called competitive multiplayer

Answers like this annoy me like hell.

If someone wants to have a little difficulty in the campaign of the game don't answer with "play the 20 hour tutorial to play online/in one of those facilities that don't even appear regularly in the series"

Just because you are willing to go trough 20 hours of nothing to get a challenge doesn't mean that everyone has to be of the same type of mind.

 

[Aaronrules380]

That, definitively... I found a 5-IV one in AS (and a bunch of 4-IV), it's really handy.

It's just that if people think hyper training will speed up the process (compared to breeding with a perfect ditto), they may be disappointed.

True, though it also depends on what level up tools will be available. I hope festival plaza has easy ways to gain a lot of levels at once like Join Avenue did in BW2. And while I doubt it'll happen again, it'd be cool to get something like the Blissey secret bases from ORAS as a way to level up really, really quickly

 

[Firemind]

I'd imagine you could see items, natures, and stats (perhaps not exact IV/EV numbers, but in the end of the day it's the actual stats that matter), plus I imagine most people will provide descriptions of the team that include that stuff when they put the qr codes up)

i think it's still not a very useful feature since i imagine the japanese and western meta are pretty different as well as the smogon meta

there are a lot of times where i ev'd a pokemon to counter a specific threat

 

[Slamtastic]

Well, I mean, that's how it is with any fighting game with a competitive scene.

Which has cropped up as a problem recently with SFV and the lack of appeal to the mainstream (although Pokemon obviously has the brand power that it is doing fine).

Human opponents aren't a substitute for single player game design. The potential for imbalance on player or game side, to create interesting situations tied tot he aesthetics and narrative, multiplayer does not substitute this and certain players are left lamenting what could have been for some of these games.

You don't have to spend dozens of hours on tasks entirely unrelated to fighting games to play a fighting game, no. Breeding pokemon is tedious nonsense, at least in fighting games you are perfecting your timing and spacing.

If fighting games are all about the multiplayer, then grinding execution in single player training mode should be seen by more people as unrelated to a real match scenario.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Answers like this annoy me like hell.

If someone wants to have a little difficulty in the campaign of the game don't answer with "play the 20 hour tutorial to play online/in one of those facilities that don't even appear regularly in the series"

Just because you are willing to go trough 20 hours of nothing to get a challenge doesn't mean that everyone has to be of the same type of mind.

I'm honestly not convinced that you could really redesign the main game to be challenging and not just grindy without making fundqmental changes to the structure. As long as the main games allow you to overlevel, and abuse healing items and revives, they'll never really be that difficult.

 

[Cow Mengde]

This is my biggest problem: no middle ground.

Main game is a breeze and requires next to no thought or effort. Plow through it never switching out between a couple Pokemon or customizing them or the game in any real way.

Then you want to dig just a little deeper and it blows your mind, and not in a good way.

There is a middle ground. You don't need to do everything. Some of that stuff is for hardcore battlers.

Learn your Pokemon's stats, and what you want. Try and get the nature you want too, and skip IVs.
Learn to read the move stats.
Learn the weakness and strengths. What is super effective against what, and what isn't effective. This is heavily tied to the moves too.

That's all you need to learn. Maybe breeding if you want a specific move, but outside of that, you're good to go.

 

[Aaronrules380]

i think it's still not a very useful feature since i imagine the japanese and western meta are pretty different as well as the smogon meta

there are a lot of times where i ev'd a pokemon to counter a specific threat

I mean, I imagine people will compile databases where you can add your teams through the QR code and probably also give a description as well as what meta it was designed for. Will it be as robust as making your own team? Of course not. But that's the cost you pay for taking a short cut

 

[Acerac]

If fighting games are all about the multiplayer, then grinding execution in single player training mode should be seen by more people as unrelated to a real match scenario.

When practicing a fighting game you are actively inputting actions that will be used in the "real" game. This seems like it would be analogous to EV training where you do tedious battles against no threat pokemon, but at least you're doing battles. I have never complained about EV training and think it is great for the series.

Breeding pokemon requires riding up and down the most convenient path until RNG decides that you win. That's terrible, and related to nothing in the "real" game.

 

[Aaronrules380]

When practicing a fighting game you are actively inputting actions that will be used in the "real" game. This seems like it would be analogous to EV training where you do tedious battles against no threat pokemon, but at least you're doing battles. I have never complained about EV training and think it is great for the series.

Breeding pokemon requires riding up and down the most convenient path until RNG decides that you win. That's terrible.

I won't disagree that IVs should be streamlined, probably even further than they have been with hyper training which requires level 100 pokemon to use.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I'm honestly not convinced that you could really redesign the main game to be challenging and not just grindy without making fundqmental changes to the structure. As long as the main games allow you to overlevel, and abuse healing items and revives, they'll never really be that difficult.

The classic RPG balance conundrum. Overleveling pretty much breaks most RPGs. This is generally why I'm a fan of EXP scaling (which is likely back in Sun and Moon). It's a soft level lock. Souls games aren't as affected by it (though they can trivialize some encounters) because of the action elements and high damage all around.

I've suggested what could be done here without fundamentally altering Pokemon:

I like that I can take a team and take it to the top in the campaign, that's satisfying and I would want a difficulty mode to maintain that feeling.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1251180&highlight=

 

[Smasher89]

I'm still not convinced it's that clear-cut:
- as far as I know, we don't know how easy you can collect bottle caps
- getting a pokemon at lvl 100 will be longer than breeding a perfect one

I think it's useful to avoid SR the legendaries (or if you want to use a shiny), but breeding will probably still be faster.

Ah, breeding can still be faster depending on the exp tricks present in the games, and if there is changes like there mostly are to the breeding mechanic. Bottle caps require less thought though and is as close to brute forcing a team as you can get I guess, nothing to learn, and after that you might get interested in other methods when you got a perfect pokemon!

 

[linkandzelda]

Now, it really isn't if you're playing it casually like I always have, but I've just started checking things like breeding and other stuff, and it feels like so much information. It's overwhelming.

Like I look at that stuff, and I might want to try to have a better team, but then don't know if I wanna go through the trouble.

It is not too complicated. If you want to play something competitively you had better put some effort in. And as you said playing casually it is not complicated at all.

 

[Vex_]

The idea that pokemon has no strategy is kind of ridiculous if you're at all familiar with the competitive scene

Well yea I wasn't talking about PvP. In the main game, I can literally play with my toes on the 3ds buttons while drinking homemade cherry/strawberry lemonade. I think I blacked out once in all of xy. And that was because I happened to have my eyes closed while skydiving.

I mean, come on man. Something at the gameplay core needs to change. Single player gamers shouldn't be able to roflstomp the AI like that.

 

[LeleSocho]

Nonsense.
It was easy as a 12 y/o in gen 3 when all the informations were hid from the player now that they show you everything and give you the possibility to alter the statistics it's even easier.

After all what is the gigantic amount of stuff you have to learn? Only EV and IV values.

 

[Koren]

I'm honestly not convinced that you could really redesign the main game to be challenging and not just grindy without making fundqmental changes to the structure. As long as the main games allow you to overlevel, and abuse healing items and revives, they'll never really be that difficult.

Well, I guess they could put a level adjustment (if you're over XX, the pokemon goes back to XX) in gyms... and limit the use of items.

But indeed, most RPGs have trouble with difficulty settings, when you can grind. I would welcome larger teams in gyms, and higher AI, though (the AI is really, really, really dumb)

Breeding pokemon requires riding up and down the most convenient path until RNG decides that you win. That's terrible, and related to nothing in the "real" game.

I agree, that's the reason I think the MMORPG is a better comparison (especially when you need random drops). In fact, I think most do it worse.

I mean, I imagine people will compile databases where you can add your teams through the QR code and probably also give a description as well as what meta it was designed for.

I wonder if they'll try to get rid of hacked pokemons, or you would quickly find banks of perfect pokemons.

 

[Black_Red]

The classic RPG balance conundrum. Overleveling pretty much breaks most RPGs. This is generally why I'm a fan of EXP scaling (which is likely back in Sun and Moon). It's a soft level lock. Souls games aren't as affected by it (though they can trivialize some encounters) because of the action elements and high damage all around.

I've suggested what could be done here without fundamentally altering Pokemon:

I like that I can take a team and take it to the top in the campaign, that's satisfying and I would want a difficulty mode to maintain that feeling.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1251180&highlight=

I'd love a hard mode where the gym leaders pokemon level are the same level as your highest level pokemon, or a fixed level if your level is too low (to avoid people trying to use really low lvl pokemon).
That would force people to train a whole team and would discourage overleveling (except for attacks).

this trend of people not willing to put the time in to get good at things is the very same reason many games are so streamlined.

But EV and IV training arent fun or hard. The're only time consuming, I mean, whats the dev reasoning behind it when people spent hours killing ratatas por that +1 (or +10 with bonuses) Speed or doing circles in a bike in front of the day-care.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Also, since legendaries have at least 3 perfect IVs since G6, this should massively cut down on required restarts - you could get your nature/needed IV spreads in a few restarts, and boost the IVs that aren't ideal.

Wow, Pokémon is so casual streamlined nowadays. 😋

 

[Mik317]

this trend of people not willing to put the time in to get good at things is the very same reason many games are so streamlined.

 

[Acerac]

I agree, that's the reason I think the MMORPG is a better comparison (especially when you need random drops). In fact, I think most do it worse.

Grinding a dungeon a dozen times to get gear at least involves huge, fun fights.

If you're talking running around and butchering minor NPCs it'd be a fair comparison, but most games have moved past this vanilla WoW approach to farming.

this trend of people not willing to put the time in to get good at things is the very same reason many games are so streamlined.

Not sure if this is a defense of breeding, but riding up and down the street on your bike doesn't make you better at pokemon.

It's why people cheat, so they can spend their time doing relevant things (like practicing battles and getting better) instead of riding up and down their street on their bicycle.

 

[Koren]

Single player gamers shouldn't be able to roflstomp the AI like that.

I don't remember many RPGs where you can't become overlevelled...

You probably level too quickly in Pokemon, especially with XP Share on, but beside that, that's a problem you'll find in most RPGs.

 

[EvilMario]

Level balance has little to do with the ease of single player in Pokemon. It's the dumb AI that doesn't switch for matches except in the rarest of conditions, the laughable enemies that carry around one, or two poison type Pokemon and the fact that most people play with switch after KO on, making playing matches a no risk piece of cake.

What they should do is increase the AI's smarts with matches, predictions, give their Pokemon items and make the default battling system doubles. Of course, I'm probably the only person that wants this.

 

[Smasher89]

Not sure if this is a defense of breeding, but riding up and down the street on your bike doesn't make you better at pokemon.

Breeding isnt mainly about hatching eggs, in BW2 for example you could instant hatch eggs at the join avenue, its the parent combination that matters, not the eggs at first.

 

[The Shadow Knight]

Level balance has little to do with the ease of single player in Pokemon. It's the dumb AI that doesn't switch for matches except in the rarest of conditions, the laughable enemies that carry around one, or two poison type Pokemon and the fact that most people play with switch after KO on, making playing matches a no risk piece of cake.

What they should do is increase the AI's smarts with matches, predictions, give their Pokemon items and make the default battling system doubles. Of course, I'm probably the only person that wants this.

I agree with most of this. Except for making doubles the default, but that's more personal preference than anything.

Having played a number of really though ROM hacks I would say that giving pokemon at least decent movesets and trainers an AI that isn't just random selection would also go a long way towards improving the difficulty.

One hack in particular also had a level cap depending on the number of badges you had collected which worked well to keep overleveling in check.

 

[GamerJM]

The single player will always be easy as long as you can win by overleveling or abusing items like revives and full restores. I feel like all the difficulty settings would add to the main campaign is grinding and tedium

What I want is a main game that's at least a little challenging if you don't grind. Every RPG, including stuff like SMT, becomes easy if you waste time grinding, but the game assumes that the player doesn't. Pokemon is easy even if you don't grind, hell it's easy even if you deliberately skip battles.

I don't even think that the enemies' levels should be higher, my problem is that the AI is piss stupid. They don't do even do things like switching Pokemon to abuse weaknesses.

 

[PdotMichael]

The question would be what people want from a Pokemon game, fighting or raising?

The breeding expect in Pokemon is so tiresome and boring, because it doesn't include any interesting gameplay mechanics, it has the charm of working with Excel.

 

[Acerac]

Breeding isnt mainly about hatching eggs, in BW2 for example you could instant hatch eggs at the join avenue, its the parent combination that matters, not the eggs at first.

You need to breed to get the parents though...... -_-

It's been a while since I've played the game, how long would it take to make a single team using just this feature? Assuming you didn't get perfect IVs on your first shot (you obviously won't) and you need to breed at least a couple generations to get your proper moveset, is the answer weeks? If it is this an absolute joke of a response that serves solely to prove my point that breeding is tedious bullshit.

Spoiler

If you can get unlimited eggs in a short time frame by using this feature I will feel terrible that I didn't properly take advantage when I was breeding at that time.

 

[Pau]

There is a middle ground. You don't need to do everything. Some of that stuff is for hardcore battlers.

Learn your Pokemon's stats, and what you want. Try and get the nature you want too, and skip IVs.
Learn to read the move stats.
Learn the weakness and strengths. What is super effective against what, and what isn't effective. This is heavily tied to the moves too.

That's all you need to learn. Maybe breeding if you want a specific move, but outside of that, you're good to go.

Yup, pretty much this. Although I'd said you don't even need to pay attention to natures for anything before post-game.

It's definitely a bit eye opening to see my boyfriend who was never really into Pokémon play Pokémon X. He has a harder time because:
1. He hasn't memorized the type weaknesses and strengths.
2. He doesn't know the general stat distribution of individual Pokémon.
3. Didn't know about the difference between physical and special attacks.

The first isn't any harder to do than it was back in Pokémon Red and Blue when I was seven. Just three more types.

The second is where it can get a bit overwhelming for a new player. Having played through Red, I already know from experience that Alakazam has high special defense and I want to hit with a physical attack. So if I see Alakazam in a newer game, I already know how to deal with it. For my boyfriend, it's all new. And if you aren't looking up each new Pokémon you encounter online to see their stats distribution, you have to learn through experience which involves losing.

The third is related to the second and okay, it didn't exist back in Pokémon Red so I don't know how seven year olds nowadays deal with it. Choosing moves based on just their attack power and effects can probably get you through the game with grinding but knowing how stats effect a move's power can help mitigate needing to grind.

Overall I don't think those three things are asking too much of gamers. Particularly compared to other RPGs.

 

[Siege.exe]

You need to breed to get the parents though...... -_-

It's been a while since I've played the game, how long would it take to make a single team using just this feature? Assuming you didn't get perfect IVs on your first shot (you obviously won't) and you need to breed at least a couple generations to get your proper moveset, is the answer weeks? If it is this an absolute joke of a response that serves solely to prove my point that breeding is tedious bullshit.

Spoiler

If you can get unlimited eggs in a short time frame by using this feature I will feel terrible that I didn't properly take advantage when I was breeding at that time.

I don't know if you were specifically talking about BW2, but as of ORAS I can breed, EV train, and level a team of 6 in about 1.5-2 hours, maybe a little longer when something needs a funky EV spread. Nothing in these games should be taking you a whole day to do, let alone a week(s).

 

[Acerac]

I don't know if you were specifically talking about BW2, but as of ORAS I can breed, EV train, and level a team of 6 in about 1.5-2 hours, maybe a little longer when something needs a funky EV spread. Nothing in these games should be taking you a whole day to do, let alone a week(s).

I haven't played any of the games since the campaign in XY bored me to tears, this is encouraging news.

It feels relevant to ask, do you have a 6 IV ditto? Did you acquire it yourself if so, and how long did that take?