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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

would you mind posting some links? I am interested in learning more. That video was good, but far too short and doesnt delve into the specifics of the solutions proposed.

Yeah!

https://www.thenation.com/article/a...-full-social-economic-and-political-equality/
(I love the deck here: "When people ask me, “Who will protect us,” I want to say: Who protects you now?")

http://criticalresistance.org/abolish-policing/

http://www.mcgilldaily.com/PoliceIssue/Restorative-Justice.html

http://www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/overview/herzing_pic.html

^ this link in particular highlights something that I think everyone critical here should read first. Abolition doesn't expect no new ideas to replace what we move on from.

What is Abolition?
Prison Industrial Complex abolition is a political vision with the goal of eliminating policing, prisons, and surveillance and creating lasting alternatives to punishment and prison. From where we stand right now, it is really difficult to imagine what abolition would look like. Abolition isn't just about getting rid of buildings full of cages. It's about undoing the society we live in because the prison industrial complex both feeds on and maintains oppression and inequalities through punishment, violence and the control of millions of people. Because the prison industrial complex is not an isolated system, abolition is a broad strategy. An abolitionist vision means we must build models today that can represent how we want to live in the future. It means developing practical strategies for taking small steps that move us toward making our dreams real and lead us all to believe that things can be really different. Abolition is both a practical organizing tool and a long-term goal.

...and...

Most of us want the same thing: safe, stable communities. The issue is how do we get there? What steps should we take to ensure we meet that goal?

The U.S. prison industrial complex is not a broken system in need of repair. It is a system that works. Over the course of its development, it has actually become even more effective in its purpose-controlling and disappearing those people who present the greatest potential challenges to the U.S. power structure. By saying that I do not mean to say that mistakes are never made in policing, the courts or imprisonment. Many mistakes are made each day. What I do mean is that if we truly desire social justice, we must not fight to improve this killing machine. We must eliminate it.

Also I love Settlers, though it's probably too deep in its politics to be relatable for some people here. It's an in-depth history of white colonialism and the horrors surrounding it that helps to explain now: http://readsettlers.org

 

[King Tubby]

"We don't need police in our communities, they don't keep people safe" - uh what. She can speak for herself on that.

She wants to get rid of our current police force, and create something that is bias free that has no profit incentive. Do you agree that there is a need for massive reform to the crimnal justice system?

There's a difference between wanting to fix police vs wanting to abolish them.

From that article linked above

Until we invest in full employment, universal healthcare that includes mental health services, free education at every level, comprehensive sex education that teaches about consent and bodily autonomy, the decriminalization of drugs and erasure of the stigma around drug use, affordable and adequate housing, eliminating homophobia and transphobia—things that actually reduce the amount of violence we witness—I don't want to hear about how necessary the police are. They are only necessary because we are all too willing to hide behind our cowardice and not actually put forth the effort to create a better world.

I agree, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need police. How does this have any connection whatsoever to reality?

 

[Enzom21]

if its ran by humans it will always be biased/corrupt in some way and i already said i do agree that we need to reform by demilitarizing police and removing for profit prisons

So we do nothing because something new might be corrupt as well?
The militarization of the police isn't even remotely close to being their only issue.

"We don't need police in our communities, they don't keep people safe" - uh what. She can speak for herself on that.



There's a difference between wanting to fix police vs wanting to abolish them.

You can fix a tooth that is rotten to the core. You remove it and implant a new one. Police currently have too much power so nothing can change. the rules work for them so why should they?

 

[thelatestmodel]

What a load of bollocks. Yes, the police system in America is broken. But that doesn't mean you get rid of the police entirely. You need to do whatever it takes to fix that system. Get rid of for-profit prisons. Scale down the weaponry. Re-train.

You need police. Every country has police (except for that tiny list of like 8 or 9 island nations with like 100 people living on them and Vatican city). I'm as liberal as the next guy but this is a ridiculous idea. Society doesn't operate like that.

 

[Zornack]

Issues with the video:

• White prison population exceeds that of Hispanic and Native prison populations.
• For-profit prisons only account for 8% of inmates.
• An "assault weapon" is simply a semi-automatic weapon with a detachable magazine. The general public can buy these.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

"We don't need police in our communities, they don't keep people safe" - uh what. She can speak for herself on that.

Ferguson had multiple open warrants per household until a judge just wiped them all in 2015. Three warrants per household.

Can you imagine such a fucking city? Can you imagine that such a system is working as designed, to oppress poor minorities in order to make quotas and enrich those who consider themselves the elite?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I agree that there are a lot of perverse incentives in policing, such as civil forfeiture and how they are used as a budgeting strategy by localities instead of a public service.

But the idea of police abolition as presented is pretty dumb. We don't live in utopias, and you can't build one by handwaving magic community investment. She points out "people can't call the police if they're undocumented and marginalized" and says that's a good thing. She wants bands of vigilantes accountable to no one... which basically devolve the issues of thuggish police behavior to even more unaccountable cells?

These people are living in a fantasy land of the "good old times" that didn't exist, even before the drug epidemics and failure to maintain urban centers.

As for criticizing specific concrete proposals, she doesn't provide any in the video. None of these people do.

Issues with the video:

• White prison population exceeds that of Hispanic and Native prison populations.
• For-profit prisons only account for 8% of inmates.
• An "assault weapon" is simply a semi-automatic weapon with a detachable magazine. The general public can buy these.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. The focus on assault weapons and for-profit prisons are akin in that they're actually irrelevant to the major issues of criminal justice reform and gun control. For-profit prisons were a response to bad policy, not the cause of it. And semi-automatic pistols kill the vast majority of people, focusing on "assault rifles" its missing the forest for the trees.

 

[King Tubby]

You can fix a tooth that is rotten to the core. You remove it and implant a new one. Police currently have too much power so nothing can change. the rules work for them so why should they?

Okay, what is the "new tooth" you're replacing them with? A utopian society where everyone cares about each other?

Ferguson had more than 1 open warrant per household. Three warrants per household.

Can you imagine such a fucking city? Can you imagine that such a system is working as designed, to oppress poor minorities in order to make quotas and enrich those who consider themselves the elite?

There are doctors who kill their patients deliberately or push medicine that they don't need because of ties to pharmaceutical companies. Should we abolish the medical practice? I'm not saying there aren't horrible police departments that need to clean house, but that's not an argument against the entire concept of a police force.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

I shudder at the idea of private security forces enacting "justice" as in oppose to cops.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

There are doctors who kill their patients deliberately or push medicine that they don't need because of ties to pharmaceutical companies. Should we abolish the medical practice?

I'd rather you just read anything and learned about this subject before thinking about making ignorant analogies. :/

I mean, even in just this one infotainment video itself, the very first thing it tries to persuade you on is that this is a problem because the whole tree is rotten.

 

[Ogodei]

I do think we need to reorient to a more goals-based justice system, that focuses more on making the victims of crime whole after their loss (whether it's as simple as making a vandal pay to repair a store window, say), and on rehabilitation, with long-term incarceration only applied to violent and rape-related offenses.

Does this sound lenient on white-collar crime? Sort of, but part of "making the victim whole" would involve removing whatever assets the perpetrator may have to achieve that, without going so far as to impoverish the perpetrator (otherwise it feeds the cycle. So if the perpetrator is already dirt poor, then nothing can be taken from them. But the wealthy have a lot to lose in that regard).

Policing definitely needs a rethink as part of this idea, but i wouldn't go so far as to call that abolition.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't think anyone should write anything if they haven't even skimmed Angela Davis on this topic. She's one of the smartest people I've ever read or heard on this subject.

Are Prisons Obsolete?
http://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

 

[Captin Quacker]

easy to dismiss this when it only effects a certain minority

and is cheered for by a certain majority

There are doctors who kill their patients deliberately or push medicine that they don't need because of ties to pharmaceutical companies. Should we abolish the medical practice? I'm not saying there aren't horrible police departments that need to clean house, but that's not an argument against the entire concept of a police force.

those doctors actually face consequences tho

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Ferguson had multiple open warrants per household until a judge just wiped them all in 2015. Three warrants per household.

Can you imagine such a fucking city? Can you imagine that such a system is working as designed, to oppress poor minorities in order to make quotas and enrich those who consider themselves the elite?

For as shitty as that is, abolishing the police and letting anarchy run rampant would make Furgeson and everywhere else even worse.

That said, it's the only way it's going to get fixed. But lets not pretend like it wouldn't get much worse before it possibly got better. Plus, it might all be for nothing, because it's not like there is a guarantee that whatever people plan on replacing the police with wouldn't fall back into some sort of corruption.

As much as I'd like it to work, anarchy simply doesn't. There are just too many shitty people who are going to screw up the concept.

 

[Zornack]

I don't think anyone should write anything if they haven't even skimmed Angela Davis on this topic. She's one of the smartest people I've ever read or heard on this subject.

Are Prisons Obsolete?
http://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

You expect people to read an entire book before responding to a two and a half minute youtube video?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

It's the gender neutral of latina/latino

removing gender from the language to be more inclusive to non-binbary/trans people

Why not just say latin?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Anyone here watched The 13th on Netflix by Ava DuVernay? It'll get you caught up real quick on America's history of slavery and imprisonment.

Then you can go way deeper into slavery to compare the abolition movement of slavery to what you see now (imo, still racial slavery and prison labor):

The Slave's Cause: A History of Abolition
https://www.amazon.com/dp/030018137X/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Jenov]

Let's ask brazilians how they dealt with the lack of police because of a strike

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...sult-was-near-anarchy/?utm_term=.8bf04c16f0a6

Humanity isn't ready for this.

The police force in the USA has issues, making the all force desapear won't solve the problems that some communities in the US face.

The results were disastrous. Within two days, 50 people were slain, schools and health clinics closed, commerce evaporated and the state’s transportation system came to a halt. Residents, who had no warning about the strike, became hostages in their own homes, forced to survive on whatever food they had in their cabinets.

Holy shit, yeah getting rid of police is a very bad idea. Better to fix the current force than to go for such an extreme and dumb solution that would make things worse.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

You expect people to read an entire book before responding to a two and a half minute youtube video?

I certainly expect literally anyone to have read a single book about any subject they want to authoritatively chime in on, yeah. I try not to post about things I don't have information on. Use this video as an opening to learn something new.

 

[Kthulhu]

Community policing sounds even worse. Sure in a primarily minority area you don't have to worry about racial discrimination, but what about a community that isn't?

Not to mention churches aren't qualified to handle this kind of stuff.

The problem lies with the institution, not the concept.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

I'd rather you just read anything and learned about this subject before thinking about making ignorant analogies. :/

I mean, even in just this one infotainment video itself, the very first thing it tries to persuade you on is that this is a problem because the whole tree is rotten.

Literally none of the links you provided offer any basic or realistic, actionable policy. It's essentially a series of thought pieces that don't answer basic questions while ignoring the reality of state authority and what happens in its absence. This isn't an abstract idea either, you can find plenty of examples of this not working in South America and other places.

Telling people they shouldn't post until they do x,y,z doesn't help your argument, especially when it's built on nothing.

The current system needs major reform. Those reforms aren't going to happen without public pressure and participation.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I certainly expect literally anyone to have read a single book about any subject they want to authoritatively chime in on, yeah. Use this video as an opening to learn something new.

Considering the invention of video, the internet, and news articles, that's a really dumb standard to set.

 

[patapuf]

Community policing sounds even worse. Sure in a primarily minority area you don't have to worry about racial discrimination, but what about a community that isn't?

Not to mention churches aren't qualified to handle this kind of stuff.

The problem lies with the institution, not the concept.

Community policing is an absolutely terrible idea for stability and security. And it is in no way less vulnerable to corruption and power abuse than a regular police force.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Considering the invention of video, the internet, and news articles, that's a really dumb standard to set.

I wouldn't expect abolition of the prison industrial complex to be an easy online read on an infotainment site. Donald Trump gets his news from the TV, too.

Read non-fiction, guys. Read Angela Davis on this topic specifically. You can finish Are Prisons Obsolete in a few hours. I learn more in a few hours of sitting with a good fucking book than I do in 4 years of online clicking, even if I read and watch the info available. You get into so much new information and so many new ideas when you're not being lead by the minute to something shiny.

 

[Kinyou]

Literally none of the links you provided offer any basic or realistic, actionable policy. It's essentially a series of thought pieces that don't answer basic questions while ignoring the reality of state authority and what happens in its absence. This isn't an abstract idea either, you can find plenty of examples of this not working in South America and other places.

Telling people they shouldn't post until they do x,y,z doesn't help your argument, especially when it's built on nothing.

The current system needs major reform. Those reforms aren't going to happen without public pressure and participation.

Pretty much. What i see so far are explanations on why the police is terrible, which is true, but the specific solutions are very meager.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Donald Trump gets his news from the TV, too.

Read non-fiction, guys. I learn more in 4 hours of sitting with a good fucking book than I do in 4 years of online clicking, even if I read and watch the info available. You get into so much new information and ideas when you're not being lead by the minute to something shiny.

Yet for all of the books you've read, you're still here trumpeting something that historically simply doesn't work very well. Especially on a scale as big as America.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

Community policing sounds even worse. Sure in a primarily minority area you don't have to worry about racial discrimination, but what about a community that isn't?

Not to mention churches aren't qualified to handle this kind of stuff.

The problem lies with the institution, not the concept.

lol fuck discrimination everyone would be taking what ever they wanted and killing who ever they wanted there would be very little policing going on

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Yet for all of the books you've read, you're still here trumpeting something that historically simply doesn't work very well. Especially on a scale as big as America.

It's an idea to talk about, as said by the OP. Read more about it before dismissing it. This goes for all things.

 

[King Tubby]

I don't think anyone should write anything if they haven't even skimmed Angela Davis on this topic. She's one of the smartest people I've ever read or heard on this subject.

Are Prisons Obsolete?
http://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

It's telling that the "abolitionist alternatives" section is the shortest one and doesn't propose anything concrete outside of an anecdote about a couple who forgave the people who murdered their daughter. It's one thing to say that our current criminal justice system is fucked up, but the alternatives proposed here and elsewhere involve at minimum fixing every societal injustice known to man.

The results were disastrous. Within two days, 50 people were slain, schools and health clinics closed, commerce evaporated and the state's transportation system came to a halt. Residents, who had no warning about the strike, became hostages in their own homes, forced to survive on whatever food they had in their cabinets.

Holy shit, yeah getting rid of police is a very bad idea. Better to fix the current force than to go for such an extreme and dumb solution that would make things worse.

You can't really take that as an actual example, after all they still had racism, misogyny, and poverty in their society. You need to get rid of all those things first! Also homophobia, poor education, inadequate mental healthcare, drug addiction...

 

[UncleSporky]

Yet for all of the books you've read, you're still here trumpeting something that historically simply doesn't work very well. Especially on a scale as big as America.

Conspicuously has yet to reply on the subject of the real-world example from Brazil presented earlier.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's telling that the "abolitionist alternatives" section is the shortest one and doesn't propose anything concrete outside of an anecdote about a couple who forgave the people who murdered their daughter. It's one thing to say that our current criminal justice system is fucked up, but the alternatives proposed here and elsewhere involve at minimum fixing every societal injustice known to man.

No shit. It's not an easy topic you're going to figure out by analyzing a Table of Contents.

 

[Calidor]

I wouldn't expect abolition of the prison industrial complex to be an easy online read on an infotainment site. Donald Trump gets his news from the TV, too.

Read non-fiction, guys. Read Angela Davis on this topic specifically. You can finish Are Prisons Obsolete in a few hours. I learn more in a few hours of sitting with a good fucking book than I do in 4 years of online clicking, even if I read and watch the info available. You get into so much new information and so many new ideas when you're not being lead by the minute to something shiny.

Your experience doesn't apply to everyone. There are people that learn complex career jobs off YouTube videos.

By the way, your sources are just speculative far left point of views and anarchistic wishful thinking with 0 empirical evidence, contrary to evidence of massive riots and murder sprees in absence of law enforcement. So, I don't think you should keep going with the patronizing "go read" attitude TBH

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It's an idea to talk about, as said by the OP. Read more about it before dismissing it. This goes for all things.

I've read plenty about anarchy and the idea of living in a society without policing. I used to think that anarchy was the smartest way for people to live amongst each other.

Unfortunately, like many other forms of political ideology it can look good on paper, but fails miserably when applied to actual people. Anarchy is based on the assumption that people will generally do the right thing when left to their own devices. Which is pretty obviously not the case for many. If it were, we would have never needed police in the first place.

 

[Enzom21]

Okay, what is the "new tooth" you're replacing them with? A utopian society where everyone cares about each other?

It doesn't need to be a Utopian society.

We can start by requiring police to actually live in the communities they police instead of being an outside occupying force that they are now. If you are not invested in the community you patrol then you don't care about the people who live there.

We can remove the policing for stats policy that every department has.

We can start holding police responsible for their actions and not have special rules/treatment for cops when they break the law.

Etc. etc.

Now what is the incentive for current law enforcement to make any of these changes?

 

[Stanng243]

I have to disagree with the video. I feel much safer with police than in a country without. Abolishing the police seems insane to me.

 

[patapuf]

lol fuck discrimination everyone would be taking what ever they wanted and killing who ever they wanted there would be very little policing going on

Or there would be policing going on.

We'd have militas, gangs ect. that set their turf and the rules. Huge amount of social control ect.

Plenty of places on this earth don't have police. They are not great places to live in. Especially not for minorities.

 

[Fj0823]

How do you pronounce latinx?

You don't. No one ever uses it when speaking

 

[Fuchsdh]

I don't think anyone should write anything if they haven't even skimmed Angela Davis on this topic. She's one of the smartest people I've ever read or heard on this subject.

Are Prisons Obsolete?
http://collectiveliberation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Are_Prisons_Obsolete_Angela_Davis.pdf

Betteridge's Law of Headlines strikes again.

It doesn't need to be a Utopian society.

We can start by requiring police to actually live in the communities they police instead of being an outside occupying force that they are now. If you are not invested in the community you patrol then you don't care about the people who live there.

We can remove the policing for stats policy that every department has.

We can start holding police responsible for their actions and not have special rules/treatment for cops when they break the law.

Etc. etc.

Now what is the incentive for current law enforcement to make any of these changes?

What's the incentive for current law enforcement to give up their jobs?

 

[King Tubby]

It doesn't need to be a Utopian society.

We can start by requiring police to actually live in the communities they police instead of being an outside occupying force that they are now. If you are not invested in the community you patrol then you don't care about the people who live there.

We can remove the policing for stats policy that every department has.

We can start holding police responsible for their actions and not have special rules/treatment for cops when they break the law.

Etc. etc.

Now what is the incentive for current law enforcement to make any of these changes?

I agree with all of these things, but they're all examples of institutional reform, not abolition.

No shit. It's not an easy topic you're going to figure out by analyzing a Table of Contents.

I read the chapter and am responding directly to what is written!

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Betteridge's Law of Headlines strikes again.

This is actually the best and smartest response I've gotten in here. I sincerely laughed.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

Or there would be policing going on.

We'd have militas, gangs ect. that set their turf and the rules. Huge amount of social control ect.

Plenty of places on this earth don't have police. They are not great places to live in. Especially not for minorities.

shit would go from 0% purge to all of the purge% purge in seconds if there was no consequences for your actions there wouldnt be time to form anything

 

[Rentahamster]

A discussion between a police abolitionist and a hardcore libertarian would be interesting to observe.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

this anarchist / far left bullshit is hilarious... government needs an armed law enforcement agency, if you don't want to succumb to chaos. I'm not even going to comment about the "latinx" usage

Do you speak Spanish? There is no gender-neutral termination or article, so people use either "x" or "@".
And your police does not enforce the law, so minorities wanted it gone is no surprise to me.

 

[Enzom21]

What's the incentive for current law enforcement to give up their jobs?

If they aren't serving the community they police in, who gives a shit about their jobs?
They are not guaranteed jobs.
Police departments have been disbanded in the past.

I agree with all of these things, but they're all examples of institutional reform, not abolition.

What incentive does current law enforcement have to institute institutional reform?
We can't even get cops to wear body cameras.

 

[patapuf]

shit would go from 0% purge to all of the purge% purge in seconds if there was no consequences for your actions there wouldnt be time to form anything

at first, sure. But people tend to organise themselves at least a bit. Even criminal groups that have no qualms about killing others do it and police themselves along a set of rules. With all the power abuse, bias, corruption ect. that entails.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I shudder at the idea of private security forces enacting "justice" as in oppose to cops.

You could make it so that they have to go through a publicly accredited/run police academy before they get those powers.

 

[Skellig Gra]

The whole damn tree is rotten extends well past the police.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

at first, sure. But people tend to organise themselves at least a bit. Even criminal groups that have no qualms about killing others do it and police themselves along a set of rules. With all the power abuse, bias, corruption ect. that entails.

well as long as i get to run barter town i guess sign me up

 

[patapuf]

You could make it so that they have to go through a publicly accredited/run police academy before they get those powers.

and who enforces that?

 

[Kinyou]

at first, sure. But people tend to organise themselves at least a bit. Even criminal groups that have no qualms about killing others do it and police themselves along a set of rules. With all the power abuse, bias, corruption ect. that entails.

Maybe we should give a Thunderdome based justice system a shot.