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[Pandaman]

So why try to taze him then first?

he probably didn't have his gun out when they tried tazing him.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

The police are directly responsible for the woman's death because she was killed by bullets they let off. They had options, they chose poorly.

They tried other options first - they were unsuccessful. The guy reached for the gun he was reported to have.
I am no fan of the police but this womans death is entirely on the suspect and his actions.

 

[Freakinchair]

Don't worry everyone - the gun was in his hand. Also there was crack dust all over him and a little bag of MJ.

 

[Guevara]

back then shooting 9 times would have taken 3 minutes

Spoiler

and you'd still probably miss 4 of those shots

 

[Infinite]

His life probably wasn't flashing before his eyes when he was tasering the guy. As for how you miss, easily. It's fucking hard to hit shit with a pistol even when your adrenaline isn't pumping out of fear.

So why fire it where innocent people can potentially be harm? Still seems like I a brash decision.

 

[NimbusD]

I agree.

Here's a hypothetical to show the logic: Police involved in high speed chase with criminal. Criminal swerves towards pursuing police car. Police car subsequently looses control and hits someone.

His crime is ignoring a police officer and "reaching into his waistband".
Surely enough reason to open fire, disregard casualties and gun down two people.

I agree with both of these posters. What people need to realize is that THESE SITUATIONS ARE NOT THE SAME. We're way too accepting of police's use of deadly force in this country.

Eric Garner should be responsible for his own death because he should have known not complying with an officer results in a choke hold. This guy is responsible because he should know that reaching for your waistband results in being shot at by police and then being charged with the murder of whoever he hits. (and I could go on and on, and will if people need me to).

How about police are smarter about they irreversibly escalate situations?

 

[KHarvey16]

An earlier article but there are more details:

http://m.clickorlando.com/news/man-...olice-shooting-at-downtown-nightclub/27732002

An alleged gunman who prompted a fatal police shooting at an Orlando nightclub now faces first-degree murder charges in the death of a woman who was struck by an officer's stray bullet.

The alleged gunman, Kody Roach, 23, was wounded by police in the August 19 shooting, which occurred at Vixen Bar at 118 South Orange Avenue. Roach, who remains hospitalized, was initially arrested on charges of carrying a concealed firearm. He now also faces charges of attempted armed burglary and armed trespassing in an occupied structure.

Maria Godinez, 22, was struck and killed by a stray bullet fired by an Orlando police officer who confronted Roach at the bar.

Roach's new arrest report released on Tuesday details many of the same circumstances described immediately after the shooting, but it also gets into more detail.

For example, Godinez was shot in the shoulder and collapsed about 6-to-8 ft. inside the bar.

It also details how surveillance video obtained by Vixen Bar shows Roach dropping his gun after he was kicked out of the bar for carrying a gun.

The video also shows him trying to get back inside the bar as police confronted him outside.

"Unsuccessful in opening the locked door again, Roach then raises his shirt with his left hand, while rapidly reaching into his waistband with his right hand," the report details.

Officer Eduard Sanguino fires nine shots, according to the report. Roach was shot at least five times, the report indicates. One of the shots ricocheted, hitting Lt. Frank Nunez in the shin. One of the bullets hit Godinez.

Once Roach collapsed, the report says he dropped a .40-caliber Ruger firearm from his hands.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement continues to investigate the police-involved shooting.

As standard procedure, the officers in the shooting, Sanguino and Officer Jeff Angel, were placed on paid administrative leave.

Sanguino has been with OPD for two-and-a-half years, and Angel has been with OPD for 14 years. Both Sanguino and Angel are part of the downtown bike unit of OPD.

Police said Nunez has been on the force for 19 years.

 

[YoungFa]

he probably didn't have his gun out when they tried tazing him.

According to the report he was shot before taking any kind of gun out.

 

[Pandaman]

Don't worry everyone - the gun was in his hand. Also there was crack dust all over him and a little bag of MJ.

According to the report he was shot before taking any kind of gun out.

even if he never touched his gun, reaching into his waistband would be enough because 'his gun is in his waistband' was part of the 9/11 call.

 

[PrimaNocta]

Dudes in a bar waving a gun around? Yeah fuck this guy & charge his ass.

 

[Zoe]

They managed to successfully taser him but managed to also miss gunshots? How do you miss from that proximity?

You're not close when you shoot from a taser.

And they landed 7 of the 9 shots. That's actually better than many of these cases.

 

[Htown]

- Why always aim for the upper body/head, surely the aim is to incapacitate so an arrest can be made? Why not blow their kneecap, or generally just shoot them in the knee, foot, or somewhere else that's less likely to be lethal? Surely that'd also lessen the risk of lethal collateral?

Because it's not a hollywood movie.

You aim for the easiest target, which is the torso. The part that is easiest to hit and moves around the least.

Nobody aims for the head except maybe a sniper who has a perch and a good shot.

 

[Freaky Fred]

FIRST DEGREE FELONY MURDER. Cause that's fair.

Shoot at the search function nine times if old.

Spoiler

#notallcops

seems fair to me

keep trying to push that anti-cop narrative though, these threads are always a fun read

 

[KHarvey16]

According to the report he was shot before taking any kind of gun out.

What report says that?

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

They managed to successfully taser him but managed to also miss gunshots? How do you miss from that proximity?

Suspects, particularly in the us usually do stand perfectly still while the police open fire on them after being tased and while resisting arrest.
Usually.

 

[Tamanon]

If he was a "gun-wielding maniac", kinda odd that his gun was supposedly tucked in his waistband. Also "exchange of gunfire" is an odd phrase if only one side is firing.

 

[YoungFa]

even if he never touched his gun, reaching into his waistband would be enough because 'his gun is in his waistband' was part of the 9/11 call.

Yeah I get that. But I don't get why you'd even take the chance to taze someone like that than.

 

[Infinite]

seems fair to me

keep trying to push that anti-cop narrative though, these threads are always a fun read

Stop with this noise. No one is pushing an anticop agenda by calling into question how police work is actually done.

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

So why try to taze him then first?

Because he wasn't a direct threat at that time.

Without going into the law, or doing a super analysis of what's happened given the facts of the case as we know them, I'm going to say that this "shoot first ask questions later" policy we have in regard to policing doesn't seem like it's always the best solution.

It just seems like there could have been another way to resolve this without someone being dead, especially considering that the gun wasn't loaded. I can't co-sign on this, even if I think that the police acted appropriately (and I'm not saying that I do).

Edit:

Before 15 people quote me, yes, I'm aware that they tried to taze him first. I don't think one attempt at a non-lethal solution shouldn't be the end all be all green light justification for putting someone in the ground.

I know people will dismiss this, but the elapsed time is something to consider as the main factor for why the situation escalated the way it did. If the guy reached for his gun right after they tried to taze him, then what else could they do? I agree, if it was a significant amount of time for this kind of situation (1-2 minutes) then, yeah, quickly go for another non-lethal attempt. Otherwise, there isn't a stop clock to let you know how much time you have to consider options.

 

[KHarvey16]

If he was a "gun-wielding maniac", kinda odd that his gun was supposedly tucked in his waistband. Also "exchange of gunfire" is an odd phrase if only one side is firing.

It was tucked when the police confronted him. Multiple 911 calls describe him with the gun out, which is what prompted those calls.

 

[Lambtron]

Felony murder rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

Guy lent his car to friends while he passed out at a party. Charged with first degree murder.

Shit like this is why I lean strongly towards abolishing prisons. Jesus fucking Christ this is disgusting.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

seems fair to me

keep trying to push that anti-cop narrative though, these threads are always a fun read

Something about your life probably makes you think police will never affect your life or the lives of people you know adversely, which is great. Many of the rest of us aren't so lucky

 

[Infinite]

Suspects, particularly in the us usually do stand perfectly still while the police open fire on them after being tased and while resisting arrest.
Usually.

They put the lives of others at risk opening fire in that scenario.

 

[Ol No Bones]

The dude defied the cops and reached for a gun. I really have no problem with this. Mr. Roach got that woman killed because he did not comply with the officer and reached for a gun. The officer did nothing wrong and Mr. Roach should be held accountable.

 

[Velcro Fly]

Shit like this is why I lean strongly towards abolishing prisons. Jesus fucking Christ this is disgusting.

I think having the chance to take 10 years and getting life is a raw deal. But knowingly giving your car to people who are going to go commit a felony? Uh what were you really expecting to happen?

 

[SlackAdjuster]

^ or it's that police have been overreacting to minorities who commit crimes and have straight up been murdering/not investigating cases where minorities are the victims.

This has nothing to do with a minority so I'm not sure why you even brought it up.

 

[KHarvey16]

Missed these before...

you seem to be reading into my post a bit. he has two charges against him right now, resisting arrest and 2nd degree murder, yes?

No those are not the only charges he is facing. Why would you think they were?

Felony murder rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

Guy lent his car to friends while he passed out at a party. Charged with first degree murder.

He was charged because they discussed with him what they were going to use his car for.

 

[Nemesis121]

He going to jail for a long time, unless some law firm wants help him for free, he will get stuck with a public defender who won't even try, cops needs to put someone behind bars for this...

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

So why try to taze him then first?

They didn't believe he was reaching for a gun at that point.

Two things:

- Why not use rubber bullets?

- Why always aim for the upper body/head, surely the aim is to incapacitate so an arrest can be made? Why not blow their kneecap, or generally just shoot them in the knee, foot, or somewhere else that's less likely to be lethal? Surely that'd also lessen the risk of lethal collateral?

America, you really need to sort out your gun laws.

I'm with you on the gun laws part. But, rubber bullets don't always work. If you are in a life and death situation, you don't want to rely on rubber fucking bullets.

Shooting someone in the knee is ridiculous (you don't aim for the head either). You aim for their center to increase your chances of actually hitting your target. Landing your shots with a pistol is a billion times harder than what you see in the movies.

You know how Jules thinks it's a miracle he doesn't get blown away at point blank range in Pulp Fiction? Him not getting blown away is actually more realistic than other movies.

So why fire it where innocent people can potentially be harm? Still seems like I a brash decision.

There is always a chance for someone to get hit in a shootout. Bullets pass through walls no problem.

Hypothetically, if the choice is you either shoot and possibly hit a bystander versus not shooting and the criminal definitely hurting someone, then the choice is clear.

 

[NimbusD]

Felony murder rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

Guy lent his car to friends while he passed out at a party. Charged with first degree murder.

This is.... absolute insanity. I don't have the words...

 

[SlackAdjuster]

They put the lives of others at risk opening fire in that scenario.

If there's a guy in a bar with a firearm who's already been thrown out once specifically for having that weapon, and attempts to come back in, I'd say peoples lives were already at risk. It's unfortunate, but these things happen.

 

[KHarvey16]

This is.... absolute insanity. I don't have the words...

They told him what they were going to do, and they couldn't have done it unless he gave them his car.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

I know people will dismiss this, but the elapsed time is something to consider as the main factor for why the situation escalated the way it did. If the guy reached for his gun right after they tried to taze him, then what else could they do? I agree, if it was a significant amount of time for this kind of situation (1-2 minutes) then, yeah, quickly go for another non-lethal attempt. Otherwise, there isn't a stop clock to let you know how much time you have to consider options.

I won't dismiss it. It's a good point and one I didn't consider.

If there was nothing else that the officers could do, there was nothing else they could do. However, my point still stands that police work in this country is really, really flawed. To be honest, I'm surprised they tried to taze him to begin with. Officers of the law need to be held to a higher standard, but I guess I don't have enough information here to say that's the case in this particular instance.

This story just sucks all the way around. I'm really conflicted on how to feel with this one.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

They put the lives of others at risk opening fire in that scenario.

Nope. The suspect put the lives of others in danger by getting police called for brandishing a weapon drunkenly and then reaching for it after being asked to comply and being tased.
He created this situation with his actions. No one else.

 

[Kettch]

I think having the chance to take 10 years and getting life is a raw deal. But knowingly giving your car to people who are going to go commit a felony? Uh what were you really expecting to happen?

According to the article, he claimed to have been drunk and thought they were joking. Not much information there though. Considering how quick the trial was, I would hope they had more concrete evidence.

 

[see5harp]

It's hard to judge without some video evidence. How far away was the subject? Seems like even if the police officer was justified, dude should be far away from active duty. Police officers should need to meet minimum accuracy to be active duty same as continuing education for Doctors, Dentists, and Pharmacists.

 

[Freaky Fred]

Stop with this noise. No one is pushing an anticop agenda by calling into question how police work is actually done.

the sarcastic #notallcops is doing just that

 

[IrishNinja]

sure wish we had more gifs of bugs bunny destroying a large & populous up in here, really brings some nuanced points to the table

 

[Pandaman]

No those are not the only charges he is facing. Why would you think they were?

well, mostly because of this article
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/orlando-police-drops-murder-charge-in-bar-shooting/27835916

which states that "Kody Roach now faces a second-degree murder charge for the death of Maria Godinez and resisting arrest with violence." and that the first-degree and robbery charges were removed. i interpreted that to mean that currently those were the charges against him. [obviously more can follow]

 

[KHarvey16]

It's hard to judge without some video evidence. How far away was the subject? Seems like even if the police officer was justified, dude should be far away from active duty. Police officers should need to meet minimum accuracy to be active duty same as continuing education for Doctors, Dentists, and Pharmacists.

9 total shots, 7 hit the suspect. With a handgun in a stressful situation that's not too bad really.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Once Roach collapsed, the report says he dropped a .40-caliber Ruger firearm from his hands.

i would believe that if i saw the video from their body cameras.

 

[John Dunbar]

They told him what they were going to do, and they couldn't have done it unless he gave them his car.

that's fucking bullshit anyway, especially since he was drunk as fuck when he loaned them the car. that's a case for henry fonda and some jury nullification if there ever was one.

 

[dan2026]

If you accidentally kill someone isnt that manslaughter?

Or does that not apply to the police?

 

[Pandaman]

Felony murder rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Holle

Guy lent his car to friends while he passed out at a party. Charged with first degree murder.

this is someone who should have watched the 'dont talk to the police' youtube lecture.

 

[The Faceless Master]

If you accidentally kill someone isnt that manslaughter?

Or does that not apply to the police?

no, it's murder because the perp made the cops kill the innocent bystander.

 

[Freaky Fred]

If you accidentally kill someone isnt that manslaughter?

Or does that not apply to the police?

not if that person was killed as the result of someone's criminal actions.

just like if the cops were in a high speed chase and they struck and killed someone while pursuing you, you would be responsible for that person's death.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

I'm going to post some articles about the woman who got killed just because I felt this thread is so concerned about the police and the man, that the 22 year old woman killed got no sympathy.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...tillo-vixen-shooting-20140820,0,6933988.story

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...led-orlando-police-shootout-article-1.1910243

The woman was killed INSIDE the bar, where they were held inside for protection.
I can't describe how bad I feel for her family if I were to hear my daughter went to the city to party and killed by a bullet flying from outside.

 

[KHarvey16]

well, mostly because of this article
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/orlando-police-drops-murder-charge-in-bar-shooting/27835916

which states that "Kody Roach now faces a second-degree murder charge for the death of Maria Godinez and resisting arrest with violence." and that the first-degree and robbery charges were removed. i interpreted that to mean that currently those were the charges against him. obviously more can follow.

It doesn't even imply those are the only charges.

In total, he is charged with second degree felony murder, carrying a concealed firearm, armed trespassing in an occupied structure and resisting arrest without violence.

 

[Delta Assault]

Roach had an unloaded handgun when he was fired upon.

I don't think the cops did anything wrong.

 

[CrankyJay]

Uh, how is this a problem?

It's not. A few are just on an anti-cop slant lately and thought this applied.