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[B-Dubs]

how the hell am I the old man of socialist gaf

CRAB HOW OLD ARE YOU

Pigeon is the old man of socialist GAF. Always has been.

 

[The Technomancer]

So I've moved on this quite a bit since the election. I think a Democratic Party focused on the progressive moral imperative obviously needs to be significantly more forthright about economic justice. The problem is, as I seem to need to keep repeating, that socialism is explicitly less popular in America because its popularity directly correlates with ethnic homogeneity, i.e., people are racist and literally vote against programs that help them because they will also help people of color.

White progressives really just genuinely need to get their heads around the consequence of this fact in terms of what public policy can get enacted, because they are significant and wide-ranging. I posted in the other thread an example of universal healthcare failing during Truman's administration, DESPITE EXTREMELY HIGH POPULARITY IN POLLS, because of resistance from racists in the South. This matters a lot! All those people who say that obviously we should just have single-payer because there's widespread public support for it? Go see what happens when you tell folks black people would get the same access to healthcare that they do.

This doesn't mean either that we should abandon economic justice or that we should abandon social justice. It means we need to understand the fundamental link between the two, and advocate policies that address both together. I don't have easy answers. I just think most of the easy answers are wrong.

I agree with all of this. I probably misspoke in terms of progressive movement needing to be "deceptive", what I think I mean is that polling data and enthusiasm at rallies for simple answers should not nessecarily be taken as actual electoral support for those answers, and that the way we communicate to voters often has to dodge and weave a bit to get things done

 

[sphagnum]

Pigeon is the old man of socialist GAF. Always has been.

Pfft that revisionist

 

[Hindl]

Why would we need to increase middle class taxes? While I don't like the prospect of private healthcare, single payer certainly wouldn't destroy the possibility of paid plans for those who want them.

That money needs to come from somewhere. Even Bernie's plan was raising their taxes. And single payer means there's a single payer (the government) that pays for the healthcare, with no private insurers. You're talking about a public option, which is what Obama tried (and failed) back in 09

 

[thepotatoman]

There's a middle ground between single payer and acting like Obamacare with a few changes around the edges is all that's needed, though it's shocking to me how few care to acknowledge it. I mean, when freaking Mark Cuban and Newsmax are going to the left of most democrats by talking about medicaid for catastrophic care for everyone without insurance.

Free catastrophic care, Lower the medicare age, medicare buy-in at any age, drug negotiation and importing for medicare, more premium subsidies for more people, subsidies for out of pocket costs, price controls for monopolies like Epipen.

Many of which are already the policies of most democrat politicians, but I doubt many people think of these things as democratic party plans because democrats don't even try to message them.

 

[The Technomancer]

Why would we need to increase middle class taxes? While I don't like the prospect of private healthcare, single payer certainly wouldn't destroy the possibility of paid plans for those who want them.

Pigeon has a great post a while back about how any system of health care that improves coverage and quality of care will cost the majority of healthy people more at the expense of the minority who need it at any given time. (Unless single payer massively increases efficiencies, which is not a given)

It's still the right thing to do, but it's going to cost people

 

[platypotamus]

Many I knew who were similar loved to posture themselves as if they were always on the right side of certain issues. The one that always irked me the most was the gay marriage situation. I know for a fact when younger these people were bordering on bigoted by some of the shit they'd say or jokes they'd make. Or what they believed until they grew older and changed their outlook.

Exactly. I went to Catholic school and that definitely had an impact on my opinions about gay marriage (marriage in general, really) in my youth. That's in addition to the just general insufferability that comes with being a teenager. This actually gets to a large part of a thing that keeps me up at night sometimes: how I can't actually track exactly what prevented me from becoming an alt right douchebag. I see the general trajectory gamergaters went through in their lives, and I see how they ended up the way they did. I then look at my life and think "that could have been me" and it makes me feel gross, and lucky I guess.

 

[JesseEwiak]

That money needs to come from somewhere. Even Bernie's plan was raising their taxes. And single payer means there's a single payer (the government) that pays for the healthcare, with no private insurers. You're talking about a public option, which is what Obama tried (and failed) back in 09

Bingo. Middle class taxes are much higher in Europe.

But, I'm all for a very heavily subsidized public option (that would replace Medicaid and be offered to employers), but the truth is, people like their insurance plans, rightly or wrongly.

We're never going to be the UK, but we could be France or Germany.

 

[pigeon]

Pfft that revisionist

SPLITTER

 

[IggyChooChoo]

Edit: already covered.

 

[barber]

About healthcare it is also important to say that there are several functioning ways to provide universal healthcare (the objective) and that single payer is one of the options to get there.
The swiss model would be a much closer target as it is quite similar to Obamacare. Other option would also be the public option as said before. Both of them will be less destructive.
Nevertheless, the first 10-20 years of the new model will be more expensive to the government as the previously uninsured and underinsured people will use it more often.

 

[Valhelm]

Pigeon has a great post a while back about how any system of health care that improves coverage and quality of care will cost the majority of healthy people more at the expense of the minority who need it at any given time. (Unless single payer massively increases efficiencies, which is not a given)

It's still the right thing to do, but it's going to cost people

I don't see why this couldn't be solved through reallocation from our bloated military budget.

This would require dominance of the senate and the house, but so would passing single payer in the first place.

 

[sphagnum]

SPLITTER

Social fascist!

That money needs to come from somewhere.

Does it reallllly though?

 

[kirblar]

I don't see why this couldn't be solved through reallocation from our bloated military budget.

This would require dominance of the senate and the house, but so would passing single payer in the first place.

Our budget is bloated in large parts because a lot of countries freeride. Same with healthcare research. This isn't innately a bad thing.

 

[CygnusXS]

I'm somewhat certain that you'll need to significantly improve national pre-college educational outcomes before you'll be able to get sufficient public buy-in on single payer. It's too easy to campaign against single payer with current voter preferences and knowledge.

And educational reform is an entire can of worms on its own.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

The "we can't raise taxes" argument is dumb and remains dumb. If Republicans are going to lower taxes literally every time they're in power and we can never raise them, then we're just going to eventually hit the point where the only thing we're funding is our comically oversized military budget.

I'm actually curious how much of our current spending on tax credits/cuts for employer based healthcare effects the math anyways, which is a luxury that doesn't exist in a state-by-state plan! Also how much we can just tax the business more so that everyone gets Medicare. I'm not super knowledgeable on the math here though.

Our budget is bloated in large parts because a lot of countries freeride. Same with healthcare research. This isn't innately a bad thing.

Pharma spends more on advertising than it does on research.

 

[pigeon]

Pigeon has a great post a while back about how any system of health care that improves coverage and quality of care will cost the majority of healthy people more at the expense of the minority who need it at any given time. (Unless single payer massively increases efficiencies, which is not a given)

It's still the right thing to do, but it's going to cost people

This is true, although it's also very important to note that Americans already pay a huge amount in taxes to subsidize a national healthcare system.

It's just that that system is called the employer group plan healthcare system, which the government subsidizes through an enormous tax break for corporations that offer them.

For more on this you can refer to Hillary Clinton, who mentioned this specifically last year when talking about Obamacare, although admittedly she then pivoted away from it foolishly, but I assume she was afraid to criticize the government-subsidized healthcare system that 70% of Americans depend on, even though it's incredibly terrible.

If you get rid of the tax break for employer-provided healthcare, you can probably do single-payer healthcare at a discount rate. Of course, this would lead to everybody in America losing their health insurance and the majority of insurance companies suffering severe job losses and financial shocks, because nobody's going to keep their group plan when the price goes up $700 a month. Some concomitant shocks would also ripple through the rest of the healthcare industry, which would be fun when you want to figure out who your new Medicare for All doctor is but actually Kaiser went out of business so there aren't any doctors in your neighborhood because they literally owned the hospital.

Alternately, if you want to keep people on their plans, you can do it by setting a low bar for care -- like full coverage for catastrophic and some preventative, everybody else needs a plan. This might actually do a lot to prevent the biggest disruptions, bring down premiums by moving the sickest people to government-run programs, and make sure nobody in America dies because they can't afford care. The problem is, it's INCREMENTALIST.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Pfft that revisionist

SPLITTER

"And so it was foretold that a new leftist splinter group was to be formed again"

 

[B-Dubs]

I'm somewhat certain that you'll need to significantly improve national pre-college educational outcomes before you'll be able to get sufficient public buy-in on single payer. It's too easy to campaign against single payer with current voter preferences and knowledge.

And educational reform is an entire can of worms on its own.

Educational reform would require seriously fighting poverty since kids do better at school when they don't live in abject poverty, which would require, in part, fixing healthcare. Yes, our problems are literally a giant interconnected pretzel. And none of it can be addressed without navigating the racism issues we have as a nation.

 

[chadskin]

How nuts is Sean Hannity, you ask?

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/16/media/sean-hannity-juan-williams-gun/

 

[Valhelm]

Our budget is bloated in large parts because a lot of countries freeride. Same with healthcare research. This isn't innately a bad thing.

It's got a lot more to do with the extreme wastefulness of our defense spending. The control munitions contractors have over military expenditure is dangerous and unacceptable.

 

[metalslimer]

I mean we can and probably should raise taxes to pay for better social programs for the needy but good luck getting someone to vote for a massive middle class tax increase because they are basically forgoing the rest of their career.

 

[CygnusXS]

Educational reform would require seriously fighting poverty since kids do better at school when they don't live in abject poverty, which would require, in part, fixing healthcare. Yes, our problems are literally a giant interconnected pretzel. And none of it can be addressed without navigating the racism issues we have as a nation.

Yes. This is why I'm also somewhat certain that the Union won't hold together for another century.

The problems are untenable and the solutions are impossible.

 

[Crocodile]

How worried, seriously speaking, do we have to be of Trump's budget passing?

As an aside, here is an article that might be relevant to the whole left-wing economics vs. right-wing populism.

Spoiler:

Spoiler

It pretty much argues what pigeon recently has and what I've argued in the past - racism makes left-wing economics hard to implement and win votes

 

[Wilsongt]

Melissa Spice back this weekend!

 

[metalslimer]

I don't think it's possible to overstate just how much of a factor racism and xenophobia plays a role in our politics. In order to ever gain enough support to advance legislation that actually help the poor, they have to actually be united and not having the largest majority of it actively voting against their interests.

 

[Blader]

I don't see why this couldn't be solved through reallocation from our bloated military budget.

This would require dominance of the senate and the house, but so would passing single payer in the first place.

Good luck selling military cuts to single-payer skeptics. Christ, we can't even get people to agree that slightly higher taxes for billionaires -- in a year of populists! -- is a good idea.

 

[Nelo Ice]

Many I knew who were similar loved to posture themselves as if they were always on the right side of certain issues. The one that always irked me the most was the gay marriage situation. I know for a fact when younger these people were bordering on bigoted by some of the shit they'd say or jokes they'd make. Or what they believed until they grew older and changed their outlook.

Yeah I swear I tried to make that argument too. Like hell views change and as long as she reached the right conclusion then it shouldn't be such a big deal. And lol yeah I don't remember anyone growing up being on the right side of gay marriage. Growing being called gay was an insult along with calling everyone a faggot. Things change and now I could never see myself doing any of those things now. I grew up in the 90s/00's and I'm sure everyone has a similar story but o no politicians can't do the same because reasons.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't see why this couldn't be solved through reallocation from our bloated military budget.

This would require dominance of the senate and the house, but so would passing single payer in the first place.

This is certainly possible but I think there's a reason even Bernie "student protests will make governers expand education access" Sanders didn't run on financing things with military cuts

 

[UltimaPooh]

Melissa Spice back this weekend!

I was just thinking when we were going to get more.

I wonder what the new podium gag will be... its hard to top the segway one.

 

[whyamihere]

Queen of the North is pissed.

https://twitter.com/SenatorHeitkamp/status/842488147183357953

@SenatorHeitkamp
President's budget would seriously hurt ND & rural America. I'll fight to make sure programs NDans rely on don't face senseless cuts

@SenatorHeitkamp
Proposed #budget entirely cuts rural development progs that support ND families & biz - which provided $37M in fed. funding to ND since 2015

@SenatorHeitkamp
#Budget would eliminate program that provided $22M to help low-income ND families, seniors, & folks in Indian Co. heat their homes in 2016

@SenatorHeitkamp
$1B in funding for @USACEHQ would be cut under proposed #budget - putting flood protection projects for Fargo & Minot in jeopardy

@SenatorHeitkamp
Federal EAS program that guarantees affordable air travel in rural communities-& the below ND airports rely on 2 stay connected-would be cut

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Good. More senators should rip this budget apart.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I haven't listened beyond some of their late stuff last year so I'm more speaking about stuff I'm seeing from people I follow and its correlation with what appears to be Chapo listenership, but there are two things in particular that have been bothering me:
-An attitude that treats those who aren't in total alignment as actors in bad faith specifically. Not just that other people are wrong, but that they're willfully not right

-A cathartic approach to political commentary dressed up as "being genuine" (see the good faith point above) that I'm not actually convinced of the utility of. Which is fine, entertainment doesn't need utility, but a lot of people think that this mode of expression is a utility the left can use for political gain

This piece crossed my feed last night:
http://reallifemag.com/the-laugherators/
And while I'm trying to keep my opinions here separate from the contents there, because it requires a much more in depth knowledge of their actual day in, day out content, it is an interesting critique.

Chapo’s response to the “ironic” bullying dynamic it has sparked has been accordingly equivocal. On episode 11, “Cranking the Donkey” (May 22, 2016), Menaker responds to complaints that some men of the Twitter left were harassing women, acknowledging that on the internet women regularly received communications that were “at best annoying, and at worst frightening.” But he stops short of suggesting that men have an obligation to intervene against such abuse. Christman objects to liberal women who had crafted a “narrative” of abuse, claiming that the internet is a “shit tornado” with a “mass of totally uncontrollable, unknowable people — you have no idea who anybody is, they can do whatever the fuck they want, and this narrative of these directed attacks … there’s something comforting about that.” Menaker added that “Twitter and the internet and shit doesn’t matter … I really don’t think they have any real-world effects other than distraction and just staving off the feeling of impending death, basically.”

We often joke about Brogressives but this is the most perfect example I've ever seen

Left wing Gamergate right there.

 

[whyamihere]

Hello, my name is Heidi Heitkamp, and this softball is what I think of Donald Trump's budget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVr9cirHglk

And you're watching the Disney Channel.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Hello, my name is Heidi Heitkamp, and this softball is what I think of Donald Trump's budget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVr9cirHglk

And you're watching the Disney Channel.

Heidi Heitkamp is The Best

 

[whyamihere]

Heidi Heitkamp is The Best

She literally had the best ads of the cycle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28UrdAMvIhw

 

[Loxley]

The next round of Town Halls are gonna be something.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Biden? Seriously? The man is one of the most well-liked political figures of recent times. Last poll had him like a +25. He has a strong record in the Senate, a lifetime of political service, and was a popular VP. He isn't afraid to call people out when they're wrong, but supports his party strongly.

You basically just described Hillary Clinton circa 2013.
Except she has a vagina I guess.
And he was more conservative.

But I see we've moved on to pretending that the super secret liberals are just waiting for a far left turn to sweep the new Socialist-Democratic Birdie Party to power. Again.

 

[SSGMUN10000]

Do the democrats propose an alternate budget?

 

[Nelo Ice]

The next round of Town Halls are gonna be something.

O man town halls next month are going to be must watch. I can't wait to see Republicans get shit on.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

It's going to be a bloodbath for the Republicans.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

The lost poligaf flock is slowly returning to the roost.

 

[Holmes]

The lost poligaf flock is slowly returning to the roost.

I miss quite a few people.

 

[UltimaPooh]

The lost poligaf flock is slowly returning to the roost.

Any news on Adam returning?

I miss his diva flair.

 

[BanGy.nz]

Any news on Adam returning?

I miss his diva flair.

He's busy buying Power Ranger funko pops.

 

[studyguy]

The next round of Town Halls are gonna be something.

Can't get yelled at by constituents if you never show up!

 

[Wilsongt]

I wish someone would nuke me from orbit so I don't have to live with this nonsense for the next 7 years.

 

[mo60]

It's going to be interesting if trump pulls a HW Bush in North Dakota in 2020 if he goes through with the parts of his budget that could potentially hurt north dakota and it does end up impacting north dakota.

 

[UltimaPooh]

He's busy buying Power Ranger funko pops.

Man. He has fallen hard.

 

[soul creator]

I don't think Democrats should ever run on single-payer.

They should run on Medicare for all instead.