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Poligaf episode 2010: The Empire Strikes Back

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Did you guys see that commercial from future China where they are talking smugly about how America fell in a history class?

What the hell, man. We aren't an Empire! We should not be compared to Rome or Britain.
 
balladofwindfishes said:
On what grounds would it be shot down in the Supreme Court?

Ideally, in entirety because the federal legislative branch lacks the enumerated power to manage such things.

In practice based on the makeup of the court, a more limited ruling striking at least the mandate seems plausible.

whytemyke said:
The same way that the Supreme Court ruled in McCain-Feingold... that wasn't unconstitutional either but they found a loophole that allows that corporations are now protected under the Bill of Rights.

They'll find a way, I have no doubt.

Damn that explicit text of the First Amendment loophole. :lol What tortuous legal wrangling, forbidding Congress from abridging speech - like that's even in the Constitution, amirite?
 
Wow I can't believe how badly Doyle screwed up things for Dems in Wisconsin. I wake up this morning and look at all the final results, and the state is literally a sea of red now. Pretty unbelievable. Scott Walker has something Tommie Thompson never had....republicans own the state from top to bottom.
 
For some reason I find it funny that RI failed to pass the measure to change the name of the state officially to "Rhode Island" by an overwhelming margin (78%/22%).
 
siddx said:
I like that, crusty old white people. GOP must change it's name to the COW party.
I don't exactly hold the highest of opinion for a good number of these people that just got elected, but I don't exactly have the highest of opinion for a chunk of the Dems that just got kicked out either.

I'm mainly disappointed that Nancy Pelosi is no longer the Speaker. I had a clear bias from the outset on my House projection. I like that lady and think she's done a terrific job.

So... hope Boner doesn't do too many stupid things. But given who that goober is I'm not expecting too much from Mr. "Hell no you can't!" Boner.
 
JayDubya said:
Ideally, in entirety because the federal legislative branch lacks the enumerated power to manage such things.

In practice based on the makeup of the court, a more limited ruling striking at least the mandate seems plausible.



Damn that explicit text of the First Amendment loophole. :lol What tortuous legal wrangling, forbidding Congress from abridging speech - like that's even in the Constitution, amirite?
No, that's great, because now corporations are given the same rights as individual citizens. I'm a big fan!
 
When it comes to "fixing" the economy, people have to realize two things:

1) It's going to take time
2) It can't be solved with a one, single action/ piece of legislation

Obama can't, singlehandedly, create 10 million jobs over night with one big ass executive order. It's the installation and combined effort of smaller programs that will, eventually, help create jobs. Claims that Obama isn't focusing enough on the economy is ridiculous. People undermine his smaller accomplishments without realizing that, together, they fix a bigger problem.

vas_a_morir said:
Did you guys see that commercial from future China where they are talking smugly about how America fell in a history class?

What the hell, man. We aren't an Empire! We should not be compared to Rome or Britain.

Yeah, a bunch of us saw it last night.
 
otake said:
I just don't understand Florida. The state elected a known corrupt businessman for governor and a tea party guy for senate, not to mention they chose to amend class size laws meaning there will be more students assigned per teacher.

Re: Rick Scott - In a highly visible Republican primary, McCollum tried to run on the Rick Scott Medicare fraud bit and failed. It was a mistake for Sink to run on the same issue; it wasn't news to anyone when her campaign picked up the issue from McCollum's, and in the meantime Scott successfully pinned her an "Obama liberal" and made some ethics charges against her stick.

I didn't vote for her for different reasons (discussed last week), but I really had to swallow hard to shade in the bubble for Scott.


Re: Rubio - Split vote between Meek and Crist got him elected, but realistically this seat was going to the R anyway. Florida likes its senators Red; Bill Nelson rides the fence hard on any issue when you actually speak to him outside of DC.


Re: Class sizes... don't think this one actually passed. Florida requires 60% for amendments. Anyway, the current model is too restrictive. It needs to change, but this implementation was flawed because it included non-classroom teachers in calculating average student:teacher ratios. Look for this to pass (in proper form) in 2012.
 
Thunder Monkey said:
I don't exactly hold the highest of opinion for a good number of these people that just got elected, but I don't exactly have the highest of opinion for a chunk of the Dems that just got kicked out either.

I'm mainly disappointed that Nancy Pelosi is no longer the Speaker. I had a clear bias from the outset on my House projection. I like that lady and think she's done a terrific job.

So... hope Boner doesn't do too many stupid things. But given who that goober is I'm not expecting too much from Mr. "Hell no you can't!" Boner.

I'm not expecting much from anybody for the next two years honestly. Things are just a giant mess now. Weak kneed democrats, blindly raving republicans, and just a hole heap of what the fuck is going on? It's like expecting selfish parents who had a bitter angry divorce to pay any attention to the kids. They are going to spend all their time being spiteful instead. And we are the ones who will suffer.

Oh lovely, I just read that our next governor (unless Hancock county comes through, fingers crossed) said when he's elected he's "gonna tell Obama ta go tah helllll!!!!!"
 
Jobs won't be created until new industries are created.

There can only be so many people employed to pave and redig roads and shit, and cutting taxes for businesses won't result in them hiring more people; instead, they'll pocket the savings and keep wage freezes/hiring freezes.

There has to be something else that comes out soon in America that people can get decent paying jobs doing.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Did you guys see that commercial from future China where they are talking smugly about how America fell in a history class?

What the hell, man. We aren't an Empire! We should not be compared to Rome or Britain.

I've seen that ad too and just shook my head. It reminded me a lot of those old GOP "There's a bear in the woods" spots.
 
Revolver said:
I've seen that ad too and just shook my head. It reminded me a lot of those old GOP "There's a bear in the woods" spots.
also - the steps that reportedly led to our ruin were used quite successfully by China to spur their own economic recovery.
 
captmcblack said:
Jobs won't be created until new industries are created.

There can only be so many people employed to pave and redig roads and shit, and cutting taxes for businesses won't result in them hiring more people; instead, they'll pocket the savings and keep wage freezes/hiring freezes.

There has to be something else that comes out soon in America that people can get decent paying jobs doing.
Yeah, the jobs that were lost just aren't coming back. We've essentially gotten to the point where even skilled labor can't compete against the world market that and technology has gotten to a point where you just need less people to do the job and not everyone can have the job running and building the technology.
 
siddx said:
I'm not expecting much from anybody for the next two years honestly. Things are just a giant mess now. Weak kneed democrats, blindly raving republicans, and just a hole heap of what the fuck is going on? It's like expecting selfish parents who had a bitter angry divorce to pay any attention to the kids. They are going to spend all their time being spiteful instead. And we are the ones who will suffer.

Oh lovely, I just read that our next governor (unless Hancock county comes through, fingers crossed) said when he's elected he's "gonna tell Obama ta go tah helllll!!!!!"

Jeeze. You can disagree with the mans opinions, policies, etc. but he IS the President of the United States, you have to, especially as a government official, at least have some respect for the man.
 
JayDubya said:
Damn that explicit text of the First Amendment loophole. :lol What tortuous legal wrangling, forbidding Congress from abridging speech - like that's even in the Constitution, amirite?

The First Amendment explicitly protects government speech? You might want to re-read that.
 
I think a lot of progressives convinced themselves (out of desperate hope) that the Republicans getting cleaned out and Obama elected was a sign that the Bush years had soured Americans to the Fox News Extreme Right version of conservatism. But I fear a lot, if not most, people voted repubs out and Obama in not because they had a change of heart and suddenly got 60 IQ points smarter. They were "punishing" the repubs for failing to be American enough as people saw it. Some commentators called this back then but were largely drowned out by hopium celebration, IIRC.

What we've seen the last two years is more than proof enough that the average American has not woken up. They want the same spiel they were sold before but "done right" this time. The Tea Party gimmick was pretty much testing the waters to confirm that this was the case.

The problem with this demograph of Americans is that for them politics is about whoever can get to them first and burn a single image into their brains. After that, it's hopeless. They know "the truth" and are entirely closed to further cognition on the subjects. As one political commentator said two years ago:

"America is a religion, make no mistake. It is a religion with its own ceremonies, supplications, and forms to follow. Americans punished the republicans for failing to be pious enough; but that doesn't mean Americans lost the faith. They will seize upon the next lunatic on a soapbox who promises them the road to rapture and do it all again."
 
captmcblack said:
Jobs won't be created until new industries are created.

There can only be so many people employed to pave and redig roads and shit, and cutting taxes for businesses won't result in them hiring more people; instead, they'll pocket the savings and keep wage freezes/hiring freezes.

There has to be something else that comes out soon in America that people can get decent paying jobs doing.

Sad, but true.
 
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whytemyke said:
No, that's great, because now corporations are given the same rights as individual citizens. I'm a big fan!

I'd rather they all have free speech rather than just the ones that happen to own media outlets. McCain Feingold got stepped on as an ancillary effect of the decision. Your problem isn't necessarily that corporations have free speech, but that money = speech. That can be followed back to Buckley v. Valeo. Which is funny considering that the decision indicated that the Federal Elections Campaign Act was ok to limit federal campaign contributions, but also equated money to speech.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Subplot to 2010 I was interested in this election cycle:
I was hoping for more minorities to win, but it's a good start.

I appreciate the fact that you're proud of this. I am too regardless if they are DEMs or REPs.

Celsior said:
You mean Bush's plan Obama followed for Iraq or the no plan Obama adopted for Afghanistan?

You know Obama was for getting out of Iraq before SOFA was signed right?


Yoritomo said:
It has mandates for efficiency for insurance companies and some additional tax breaks. That doesn't actually offset the problems it introduces that could legitimately increase costs for those that don't qualify for subsidy. I work with actuaries daily. I've read the bill.

I agree that it didn't go far enough, but those mandates for efficiency do help people that won't get the subsidy.

Take a look at this. A very brief overview of those controls.

Create a competitive insurance market:

Outlawing the bad kind of competition while enabling the good kind, which the bill does, is more than just a humanitarian measure. It's a cost control. The insurance "exchanges" imitate the market in which federal employees (including congressmen) purchase their health care insurance. Participating insurers can't discriminate based on pre-existing conditions, they have to answer to regulators if they attempt to jack up premiums, and consumers will be able to rate their insurers, a rating that everyone else will see when shopping for their insurance. If all goes well, consumers will be able to log onto the exchange's Website, compare insurance plans, and choose their favorite. That means insurers will have to compete for customers. As any free-market conservative will tell you, that should drive prices down and quality up. If it doesn't, insurers will have some annoyed legislators to answer to: The bill says congressmen and their staff members need to buy their insurance from these exchanges, too.

The Medicare Commission:

The next cost control worth mentioning is an effort by Congress to solve the problem of, well, Congress. Medicare's cost problem is, in many ways, a political problem: Saving money means cutting someone's profits or someone's benefits, and politicians are afraid to do either. Enter the Independent Medicare Advisory Board. Modeled off of the highly-respected (but totally toothless) Medicare Payment and Advisory Commission, IMAC is a 15-person board of independent experts chosen by the president, confirmed by the Senate, and empowered to cut through congressional gridlock. IMAC will write reforms that bring Medicare into like with certain spending targets. Congress can't modify these proposals, it can't filibuster these proposals, and if it wants to reject them, it needs to find another way to save the same amount of money. Making the process of passing tough reforms easier is the single most important thing you can do to make sure tough reforms actually happen.

A tax on "Cadillac plans":

The least popular, but most direct, cost control is the tax on expensive, employer-provided coverage. Today, the average employer who offers insurance pays more than 70 percent of a worker's premiums, all of it tax-free. This amounts to an annual $250 billion subsidy for private insurance for people with good jobs. But it's not just the size of the subsidy; it's how we use it that matters. People have their employers pay for their health-care insurance, which means individuals don't know how much their insurance really costs and don't have as much incentive to keep those costs down. Imagine the pressure for cost control if the 70 percent that employers pay were coming out of our own pockets, instead of quietly coming out of our wages. In 2018, the proposed excise tax on so-called "Cadillac plans" slaps a 40 percent tax on every dollar spent on an insurance plan above $27,500 annually. So if your plan costs $27,600, the final $100 bucks would be taxed (technically, the insurer pays the tax, but it'll pass that onto your employer). But the idea isn't that people will pay this tax. It's that they, or their employers, evade it by choosing insurance that holds its costs down more aggressively. That gives insurers who hold costs down a competitive advantage against insurers who don't. because those who don't are not only more expensive, but also paying a hefty tax on their excess spending.

Medicare "bundling" programs:

The most obviously illogical part of our current health care system is that we pay doctors the way we pay car dealers: They get more money for every item they sell. But while we aren't afraid to ignore a car dealer's recommendations, we are afraid to disagree with our doctors. As you'd expect, this pushes costs higher. The health-care bill seeds Medicare with many experiments to change this status quo, the most immediately promising of which are the "bundling" programs. Instead of getting paid for everything they do to help a diabetic, hospitals will get paid once for treating that person's diabetes and all related conditions over a certain period of time. If this leads to lower costs and doesn't harm patients, it will be expanded. That would be the beginning of the end of paying for quantity of treatment, and the beginning of paying for quality of treatment.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/20/...duces-the-deficit-in-5-not-so-easy-steps.html


Again I wanted more than this. And the President cutting deals to not make sure the public option and the prescription drugs thing pissed me off. But there are real cost cutting measures in this bill.
 
otake said:
I just don't understand Florida. The state elected a known corrupt businessman for governor and a tea party guy for senate, not to mention they chose to amend class size laws meaning there will be more students assigned per teacher.

sigh.
I read that sigh as a flushing sound.
 
Kaijima said:
I think a lot of progressives convinced themselves (out of desperate hope) that the Republicans getting cleaned out and Obama elected was a sign that the Bush years had soured Americans to the Fox News Extreme Right version of conservatism. But I fear a lot, if not most, people voted repubs out and Obama in not because they had a change of heart and suddenly got 60 IQ points smarter. They were "punishing" the repubs for failing to be American enough as people saw it. Some commentators called this back then but were largely drowned out by hopium celebration, IIRC.

What we've seen the last two years is more than proof enough that the average American has not woken up. They want the same spiel they were sold before but "done right" this time. The Tea Party gimmick was pretty much testing the waters to confirm that this was the case.

The problem with this demograph of Americans is that for them politics is about whoever can get to them first and burn a single image into their brains. After that, it's hopeless. They know "the truth" and are entirely closed to further cognition on the subjects. As one political commentator said two years ago:

"America is a religion, make no mistake. It is a religion with its own ceremonies, supplications, and forms to follow. Americans punished the republicans for failing to be pious enough; but that doesn't mean Americans lost the faith. They will seize upon the next lunatic on a soapbox who promises them the road to rapture and do it all again."

Which leads me to back to saying that Obama has done a piss poor job at informing the public on what the hell is going on. The brainwashing and fear from the previous administration is alive and well still. It's not so much that Obama hasn't done anything, it's that he hasn't convinced the public that things are getting done.

Obama could end both wars tomorrow, thus cutting a shit load of wasteful spending. But somehow, Fox News, and other far right media, will convince the public that this is bad for the troops and that the "terrorists" will get us. People will ignore facts and let fear and bullshit consume them.
 
Yoritomo said:
I'd rather they all have free speech rather than just the ones that happen to own media outlets. McCain Feingold got stepped on as an ancillary effect of the decision. Your problem isn't necessarily that corporations have free speech, but that money = speech. That can be followed back to Buckley v. Valeo. Which is funny considering that the decision indicated that the Federal Elections Campaign Act was ok to limit federal campaign contributions, but also equated money to speech.

While there is issue to be taken with the money=speech principle, Citizens United is, in fact, different. It is a direct attack on the principle of popular sovereignty: that the source of governmental power is popular consent. Corporations, which are endowed with power by governments, are by the Citizens United decision placed beyond regulation by the government. That means that the people, exercising popular sovereignty, created the corporate form through their government, but are disallowed to regulate it once created, placing corporate behavior outside the reach of the people. No more popular sovereignty.

How much money individuals qua individuals may spend, i.e., whether limits on individual monetary donations is a speech regulation, is an entirely different issue.
 
otake said:
I just don't understand Florida. The state elected a known corrupt businessman for governor and a tea party guy for senate, not to mention they chose to amend class size laws meaning there will be more students assigned per teacher.

sigh.
I agree with the rest, but you're wrong on the class size issue. Amendment 8 failed, meaning class sizes won't change.
 
empty vessel said:
The First Amendment explicitly protects government speech? You might want to re-read that.

I don't even know what you're on about here.

The ruling simply asserted the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech."

I suppose you're not going to say that McCain-Feingold (and similarly stricken legislation) was not a law, nor that it was not made by Congress, so I'm guessing you're going to tell us it doesn't abridge the freedom of speech?
 
mckmas8808 said:
The bold is important in your post. The facts speak differently to what people believe. But like you said it is reality fair or not.

And that's the part that sucks about politics in general. When you have to make tough decisions that end up working to a degree, if it's not viewed favorably then people will vote you or your supporters out.

How has health care worked "to a degree" for most Americans as of November 1st, 2010? The problem here is that democrats put themselves in a horrible position by passing the bill so late. Many provisions won't go into effect until 2014, and the ones that have gone into effect so far clearly haven't swayed public opinion; the elderly collected their $200-300 medicare rebates and used a dollar of it to take the bus to the polls, where they voted democrats out in mass. It was a vote in the dark.

At least the stimulus provided some cash for states and allowed lawmakers to build things downtown "with their name on it" as they say in The Wire. But even there the grand scheme of the stimulus is hard to defend with unemployment so high and the funds perceived to have "run out."

A lot of this is sound policy that was poorly explained to the American people. The WH seemed to sit back helplessly as republicans smeared the health care bill for months before Obama hit the trail. To make matters worse, democrats were so divided on the bill in public that many Americans began to believe the worst about the bill; people either believe the bill covers abortions or did cover abortions until Catholic democrats objected. That type of stuff matters.
 
Gary Whitta said:
That's a lot of red.
good lord look at the swing states. Illinois, Wisconsin, Ohio, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Michigan.......

I suppose you're not going to say that McCain-Feingold (and similarly stricken legislation) was not a law, nor that it was not made by Congress, so I'm guessing you're going to tell us it doesn't abridge the freedom of speech?
Feingold paid, McCain needs to board the defeat train next
 
Gary Whitta said:
Hey look it's three old white dudes on TV telling me how politics is going to be different now.
I don't watch TV news any longer, and I find it's improved my quality of life quite a bit.
 
Didn't watch even a minute of the coverage last night. :lol Interesting that FL's major races would've both been close if Meek dropped out. TBers wanted it more in FL though. They clearly, and I mean clearly, outspent Dems here.

Well, like I said earlier, this election outcome is ideal for TBers. They can now campaign 2 straight years on being handcuffed trying to implement America's will because of not being in control of the Senate and WH. Their narrative is ridiculously easy for 2012.


Anyway, here's to 2 years of even worse gridlock! :D



siddx said:
If he pops off something like that while he is there, just tell him he needs to stop or find elsewhere to stay because you don't accept hateful bigoted speech in your home. And of course avoid all political talk.

Yup. Eventually, you have to stand up for yourself in situations. That's what I had to do with my neocon in-laws, mainly my father-in-law though. He's the type of Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/Coulter/FNC puppet who just HAS to bring up politics whenever possible. I never look forward to my (neocon) in-laws visiting, and next week




whytemyke said:
Pretty smart move by Oklahoma and Nevada (I think?) to put the "anti national health care" ballot measure on their ballots for yesterday.

With those passed, now the whole National Health Care will end up in the Supreme Court, where it will be struck down.

It's ridiculous, but smart move by GOP, knowing they couldn't overturn it in Congress and thus using the Supreme Court to do the lifting for them.

Yup, it's going to happen. No way does Roberts pass up a chance to hand TBers another huge victory. Same goes for any Gay Marriage case that comes up.
 
JayDubya said:
I don't even know what you're on about here.

The ruling simply asserted the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech."

I suppose you're not going to say that McCain-Feingold (and similarly stricken legislation) was not a law, nor that it was not made by Congress, so I'm guessing you're going to tell us it doesn't abridge the freedom of speech?

Corporations exercise powers granted by the government. They are not people--the unit of popular sovereignty--which is what the First Amendment explicitly references.
 
quadriplegicjon said:
How does that make sense in the context of what he wrote? If anything, Pelosi is Princess Laia.
You realize where you just erred in this question, right?
 
quadriplegicjon said:
How does that make sense in the context of what he wrote? If anything, Pelosi is Princess Laia.

Obama = Luke
Biden = Chewbaca
Pelosi = Laia
Boehner = Vader
Emperor = ????
 
mckmas8808 said:
Again I wanted more than this. And the President cutting deals to not make sure the public option and the prescription drugs thing pissed me off. But there are real cost cutting measures in this bill.

Since I've mentioned that I work with actuaries daily it stands to reason that I'm employed by an insurance company. So obviously I'm biased. Not in the sense that I'm pro insurance company even though a programmer that can build actuarial models is destined to work at insurance companies his entire life. :lol But I've never found the sort of politicking and vicarious populism that governors engage in by using their states' insurance regulating bodies to talk big on price controls that in reality can force smaller companies out of business and large companies to completely pull out of a region.

The healthcare bill is similar but on a federal scale. To be honest my only hope is that the price controls/mandated efficiency audits are so stringent that companies buckle and public health care has to take over... but what will really happen is consumers with get stuck in the middle of the fight between populist politicians and the biggest insurance companies playing fast and loose with rhetoric to push voters to place all blame on the federal regulatory body. Voters then vote against their actual interests because they're not well informed. Favors will be done, bribes will happen, and in the end consumers will get fucked in the ass and the price controls won't matter to companies that have the buying power to keep some legislators in their pocket.
 
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