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[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I do wonder what the reaction will be when there's a game like this staring 12 year old thousand year old dragon girls.

Sexual assault sim? Lol okay.

I really don't see the problem with this VR mode, if people get off on this who cares. Wait until the male equivalent of this VR mode comes out and no one will care.

There's plenty of sexual sim games in which you rub out a cute anime guy until he climaxes. Should we raise hell because that game doesn't target straight males or because we find it creepy?

Does the man in the game actively protest and not consent at all when you try to jack him off?

If yes, then it's a sexual assault sim. If not, then it's not.

 

[chillybright]

Whoever thinks this is harassment cannot differentiate reality against fiction, and think everyone else cannot either.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Does the man in the game actively protest and not consent at all when you try to jack him off?

If yes, then it's a sexual assault sim. If not, then it's not.

It always depends.

In Japanese yaoi/gay stories you have Seme/Uke, which means mostly one guy is the strong guy, while the other is the shy, naive guy. How they explain it is that the latter one actually wants that to happen, but acts like he doesnt, but in the end enjoys it.

 

[partyphone]

Whoever thinks this is harassment cannot differentiate reality against fiction, and think everyone else cannot either.

so the fictional characters with no agency are simply roleplaying sexual assault.

wrap it up boys, nothing to see here.

 

[Red Frost]

I do wonder what the reaction will be when there's a game like this staring 12 year old thousand year old dragon girls.

Controversy for the first one, then people will just roll their eyes when 5000 more pop up.

 

[NOOI]

Does the man in the game actively protest and not consent at all when you try to jack him off?

If yes, then it's a sexual assault sim. If not, then it's not.

In general the person doing the assault is another man, but yes, that's what a large number of women in Japan get off to. And as a man I have no problem with what the ladies enjoy.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I do wonder what the reaction will be when there's a game like this staring 12 year old thousand year old dragon girls.

The fact that there will be a defense force for this shit is really sickening when you think about it. Ծ_Ծ

 

[Red Frost]

So what you're saying is that women don't get harassed on a daily basis?

Of course I'm not saying that. As I already said in this thread, I'm a victim of it myself and it sucks (understatement). It's something that absolutely needs more awareness and is a blight on society wherever it is.

But what's being depicted is an anime girl adopting a theatrical Japanese porn demeanor while getting poked by a floating grey ball on a beach. It's about as realistic as a parkour assassin in 18th century Rome. This isn't harassment, it's a silly fantasy scenario.

 

[Dio]

I do wonder what the reaction will be when there's a game like this staring 12 year old thousand year old dragon girls.



Does the man in the game actively protest and not consent at all when you try to jack him off?

If yes, then it's a sexual assault sim. If not, then it's not.

There are actually quite a lot of rape-themed doujins and games aimed at women starring men. Yaoi is generally targeted towards women, but some of the stuff that goes on in those rivals hetero stuff and is sometimes even worse.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

In general the person doing the assault is another man, but yes, that's what a large number of women in Japan get off to. And as a man I have no problem with what the ladies enjoy.

I mean, I'm not a fan of male sexual assault being glamorized either.

I thought MRAs would be on board with that feeling, but guess not, I guess.

 

[NOOI]

The fact that there will be a defense force for this shit is really sickening when you think about it. Ծ_Ծ

You can be as sick as you like. Much like how there are certain countries on this planet where people feel sick about women being seeing in public without veils. You are free to object to anything and everything. But as long as no human are harmed then I will defend it.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

The fact that there will be a defense force for this shit is really sickening when you think about it. Ծ_Ծ

No matter how much you wish for it, it is ALREADY being made and bought by people, both men and women.

 

[NOOI]

I mean, I'm not a fan of male sexual assault being glamorized either.

I thought MRAs would be on board with that feeling, but guess not, I guess.

You have the right to feel anything you want. You have the right to be disgusted.

But your feelings are your own, you are not allowed to demand that others feel the same way you do.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

You can be as sick as you like. Much like how there are certain countries on this planet where people feel sick about women being seeing in public without veils. You are free to object to anything and everything. But as long as no human are harmed then I will defend it.

I mean, do you support VR games where you use a Wiimote like device as a virtual dildo that you use to rape a five year old girl?

I don't mean to be flippant, but we're honestly 80% of the way there with the approval of a "sexually assault 12 year olds" simulator.

I don't think feeling disgust at this would be comparable to hating women having the agency to wear the clothes they want to wear, but hey.

 

[GorillaJu]

All this talk about rape and killing... In the end you have to judge what a game does in its own context first and foremost. There's a reason "sexual harassment" isn't a widely accepted game genre, because it's never justifiable.

That said, the existence of games like DOAX is justified in that as unsavory as it may be, feeling up unwilling polygonal, fictional teenagers isn't illegal. So, tasteless? Yes. Embarrassing? Yes. Will I be buying it? Hell no. Should it be banned/made illegal? Nope.

 

[NOOI]

I mean, do you support VR games where you use a Wiimote like device as a virtual dildo that you use to rape a five year old girl?

I don't mean to be flippant, but we're honestly 80% of the way there with the approval of a "sexually assault 12 year olds" simulator.

I don't think feeling disgust at this would be comparable to hating women having the agency to wear the clothes they want to wear, but hey.

Yes, I will defend it. I won't buy it or play it, but I will defend it. If the only games allowed on the planet are games I personally approve, there wouldn't be much of a game industry left.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

I mean, do you support VR games where you use a Wiimote like device as a virtual dildo that you use to rape a five year old girl?

I don't mean to be flippant, but we're honestly 80% of the way there with the approval of a "sexually assault 12 year olds" simulator.

I don't think feeling disgust at this would be comparable to hating women having the agency to wear the clothes they want to wear, but hey.

Some people would support, some people would not support.
For me, I find the act is disgusting, but hey I can just not play the game. I have no problems with it being released.
As again, let the publishers, console makers, ratings board, government stop the game from releasing in stores if they feel it is bad. Or you can petition your own government if you feel disgust about it.

This one isn't even being released here, you guys should be happy about that.

 

[Red Frost]

I mean, do you support VR games where you use a Wiimote like device as a virtual dildo that you use to rape a five year old girl?

I don't mean to be flippant, but we're honestly 80% of the way there with the approval of a "sexually assault 12 year olds" simulator.

Again, right to exist and finding something tasteless are two different things. My opinion will always be if it's virtual, it has the right to exist. Doesn't mean I won't find the content disgusting as is your examples.

The only time I get shaky on this is if it's something directly used for the purpose of incitement, and even then that's on the creator and how they advertise/get people to play it rather than the work itself.

 

[DragonGirl]

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

In real life, there is no "murder culture". Murder and mass shootings happen, but they are not normal, nor are they tolerated. You kill, you go to prison, people don't generally blame the victims for their own deaths. Unless you are very paranoid, you don't step outside afraid that somebody is going to come running down the street shooting everybody.

In real life, there is absolutely a "rape culture". Disregard for a woman's bodily integrity and ownership, and creeping, they do happen, and they are tolerated. You rape a woman, maybe you go to prison, or maybe you get a slap on the wrist because some judge feels sorry for you, being such a promising college athlete and heavens, wouldn't want this to negatively impact your life. Victims of harassment and rape are blamed all the time for what happens to them. If you are a woman, you don't need to be paranoid about walking outside and having somebody assert that they are entitled to you, creep on you, harass you, because that's just another Tuesday.

Video game violence does not reflect the world and seeing as culture does not blithely tolerate murder (unless you're a cop) there is little risk that Jane and Joe Average are going to go on a murder spree because video games.

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

 

[depths20XX]

I mean, do you support VR games where you use a Wiimote like device as a virtual dildo that you use to rape a five year old girl?

I don't mean to be flippant, but we're honestly 80% of the way there with the approval of a "sexually assault 12 year olds" simulator.

I don't think feeling disgust at this would be comparable to hating women having the agency to wear the clothes they want to wear, but hey.

In what world is this game about to be created? Sure, let them create it and then be criticized by everyone and sell barely any copies. If there are laws being broken that hurt real people then I care.

 

[mugwhump]

Yes, because we're talking about scenarios that have no correlation with reality, when even things that used to be examples for debates of video game violence are more tame and stylized than they've ever been, when we're talking about something that 1 in 5 women experience at some point during their lifetime compared to, and please, feel free to check a source for this, the amount of dudes in their lifetime who wear beaked hoods and murder political figures while parkouring, or every day men who can take on literally armies of mercenaries, including a band of pirates with his bare hands, or space marines. Space marines. No one relates to that sort of typical violence in games. Compared to a woman who can relate to being harassed by a creepy bastard and not being able to do much about it, in a society where sexual violence and harassment is so prevalent that a woman putting on headphones is perceived as a challenge by some men. Or where gaming culture has been so fucked up by the constant objectification and sexualization of women that a large contingent forgot what sexuality means on a basic level and confuse it for the formers. This is why violence has no relevance here, and as the gen goes on, has less and less relevance in these discussions, because unlike with this sort of shit, which actively seems to be regressing as the audience shrinks, violence in games and the way it's portrayed has been improved. COD is no longer a brown people shooting simulator, GoW is now a dad simulator, AC is more stylized than ever. Harassment like this however, has very real implications in the real world, but unlike say pulling out a gun and shooting civilians and then being killed by the police or guards, there's no consequences for the player here. They can just harass women as much as they want with little consequences.

I think you're cherrypicking your examples of stylized violence a bit, while also underplaying the stylization of DoA. I think better examples of believably realistic violence would be the quite large genre of military shooters like arma, counterstrike, even CoD (the genre's not my biggest forte, someone else could probably suggest better ones). Or games like GTA and manhunt. I wouldn't really say these games are more stylized in their violence than DOAXBV3 is in its sexualization. It seems like the concept of the game is that you've been conveniently appointed the manager of someone else's exotic resort while a harem of extremely attractive yet oddly samefaced anime girls titter and teehee and rub their butts together for your amusement. In VR mode you can manipulate a floating molestation orb to bump into their breasts, causing them to animate and issue stock-standard anime cries of "Yada!" and "Dame!" before returning to a neutral pose. Frankly I think that's pretty darn silly and difficult to believe, and I strongly question the idea that people participating in such an obviously fantastical virtual scenario are going to let it influence their real-world behavior.

You've established quite well that sexism is a rampant problem, and if you said this game was a symptom of said sexism I don't think anyone would disagree. But the important central argument, that should prove why this media is a problem, is that said media causes real sexism. Violence is relevant because it's where the most research has been done on the question of media causing negative real-world behavior. To my knowledge, it's still pretty controversial among academics, but at the very least there hasn't been definitive evidence that it does.

 

[NOOI]

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

In real life, there is no "murder culture". Murder and mass shootings happen, but they are not normal, nor are they tolerated. You kill, you go to prison, people don't generally blame the victims for their own deaths. Unless you are very paranoid, you don't step outside afraid that somebody is going to come running down the street shooting everybody.

In real life, there is absolutely a "rape culture". Disregard for a woman's bodily integrity and ownership, and creeping, they do happen, and they are tolerated. You rape a woman, maybe you go to prison, or maybe you get a slap on the wrist because some judge feels sorry for you, being such a promising college athlete and heavens, wouldn't want this to negatively impact your life. Victims of harassment and rape are blamed all the time for what happens to them. If you are a woman, you don't need to be paranoid about walking outside and having somebody assert that they are entitled to you, creep on you, harass you, because that's just another Tuesday.

Video game violence does not reflect the world and seeing as culture does not blithely tolerate murder (unless you're a cop) there is little risk that Jane and Joe Average are going to go on a murder spree because video games.

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

If rapists don't go to prison, it isn't the problem of videogames. If you have an issue with rapists not being prosecuted, then go complain to the judiciary.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Appeal to emotion
Ad hominem
Non sequitur

That's to name a few that are in here. Slippery slopes and "won't someone think of the children" have been going on since the days of Jack Thompson, but let's try not to repeat the same old song and dance.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

In what world is this game about to be created? Sure, let them create it and then be criticized by everyone and sell barely any copies. If there are laws being broken that hurt real people then I care.

I don't expect many of those games to be made. I do expect a lot of "12 year old girl sexual assault simulators" to be made though.

I'm not arguing for game bans, I'm saying that these games are creepy.

That's to name a few that are in here. Slippery slopes and "won't someone think of the children" have been going on since the days of Jack Thomson, but let's try not to repeat the same old song and dance.

People are literally comparing disgust at sexual assault simulators to disgust at women having agency so I think you have to add some other appeals there, duder.

 

[DragonGirl]

If rapists don't go to prison, it isn't the problem of videogames. If you have an issue with rapists not being prosecuted, then go complain to the judiciary.

There's missing the point, and then there's doing a superman dive to the ground to avoid it.

 

[NOOI]

I don't expect many of those games to be made. I do expect a lot of "12 year old girl sexual assault simulators" to be made though.

I'm not arguing for game bans, I'm saying that these games are creepy.

And I defend your right to be creeped out. But that's as far as I could support you on this. You can't enforce feelings on other people.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Of course I'm not saying that. As I already said in this thread, I'm a victim of it myself and it sucks (understatement). It's something that absolutely needs more awareness and is a blight on society wherever it is.

But what's being depicted is an anime girl adopting a theatrical Japanese porn demeanor while getting poked by a floating grey ball on a beach. It's about as realistic as a parkour assassin in 18th century Rome. This isn't harassment, it's a silly fantasy scenario.

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

In real life, there is no "murder culture". Murder and mass shootings happen, but they are not normal, nor are they tolerated. You kill, you go to prison, people don't generally blame the victims for their own deaths. Unless you are very paranoid, you don't step outside afraid that somebody is going to come running down the street shooting everybody.

In real life, there is absolutely a "rape culture". Disregard for a woman's bodily integrity and ownership, and creeping, they do happen, and they are tolerated. You rape a woman, maybe you go to prison, or maybe you get a slap on the wrist because some judge feels sorry for you, being such a promising college athlete and heavens, wouldn't want this to negatively impact your life. Victims of harassment and rape are blamed all the time for what happens to them. If you are a woman, you don't need to be paranoid about walking outside and having somebody assert that they are entitled to you, creep on you, harass you, because that's just another Tuesday.

Video game violence does not reflect the world and seeing as culture does not blithely tolerate murder (unless you're a cop) there is little risk that Jane and Joe Average are going to go on a murder spree because video games.

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

Well put. Thank you. It's been explained over and over, i've been waiting for them to start a thread on video game violence despite the fact that judging by their post histories they don't give two actual shits about it. It falls of deaf ears i'm afraid.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

This isn't a game where someone buys for some other purpose and then suddenly finding out, oh shit there's a rape part I'm forced to play through!

No.

The only reason why one would play this game is, hey this game allows you to harass women! I have no problem with that so I'm going to lay down the money to buy/import the title. You stepped into this willingly.
This game is not the issue because such games already exist in the first place, it has long existed on PC, PS4, VITA, DS. If you truly feel such games do not deserve to be sold, petition your ratings board to do their job.

 

[NOOI]

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

You don't think it is realistic to treasurehunt? You don't think it is realistic to assassinate famous people?

And Space Marine is just a scifi fanatical religious soldier. We got a lot of that still.

 

[EventHorizon]

As an animator, there's not a lot of difference between the walk of average men and women.

the same

Men and women are not exactly the same, but, sometimes it takes a male example for adamant defenders of shit like this to register the issue. Remember how many players had issues with Fenris in DA2, who's specifically designed and written to appeal to women, including his outfit and body type, (relative to what was popular at the time).

As you admit, there is a difference between men and women, and human beings are biologically predisposed to focus in on those differences. Men are more drawn to the physical differences that are unique to women, and the same is true of women to men. However it's also true that women don't weigh physical characteristics as important, and consider more factors on average in determining attractiveness.

This is the reality of the world we live in. Games and media are just accentuating those real world differences in their characters. We typically don't get the average man or woman to be our action heroes. That's because media entertainment is about the exceptional not the ordinary. All you are doing is pointing out that obvious fact.

For me if there is going to be a woman in a game, then I'd rather she be the most beautiful woman possible, and if I'm going to play a male character then I want him to be the most masculine.

Sorry I have no idea what the Fenris in DA2 issue is. I can say that I don't have a double standard on this and have no problems with game characters designed specifically for women. However, while I have no problem with it, I will reiterate that male and female taste are not the same. If a game goes too far to cater to women to the point where it turns me off to the game, I won't buy it. I would assume that women would do the same for a game that catered too much to men's taste.

The key point I'm making is that men and women are different. A game or piece of media can go for a more gender neutral approach, or they can tilt to one extreme or another. I find all forms of expression valid, and press back against any notion that only those neutral works of art deserve to exist.

 

[Red Frost]

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

In real life, there is no "murder culture". Murder and mass shootings happen, but they are not normal, nor are they tolerated. You kill, you go to prison, people don't generally blame the victims for their own deaths. Unless you are very paranoid, you don't step outside afraid that somebody is going to come running down the street shooting everybody.

In real life, there is absolutely a "rape culture". Disregard for a woman's bodily integrity and ownership, and creeping, they do happen, and they are tolerated. You rape a woman, maybe you go to prison, or maybe you get a slap on the wrist because some judge feels sorry for you, being such a promising college athlete and heavens, wouldn't want this to negatively impact your life. Victims of harassment and rape are blamed all the time for what happens to them. If you are a woman, you don't need to be paranoid about walking outside and having somebody assert that they are entitled to you, creep on you, harass you, because that's just another Tuesday.

Video game violence does not reflect the world and seeing as culture does not blithely tolerate murder (unless you're a cop) there is little risk that Jane and Joe Average are going to go on a murder spree because video games.

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

I agree with you in a greater societal sense, but in an individual case like this where we're seeing a heavily stylized anime girl getting poked by a floating metal ball, I really don't see it contributing to rape culture in the same way a student getting a slap on the wrist for rape does. It's a step below softcore porn rather than an actual normalization of harassment.

Unless you think porn also normalizes harassment, which is another discussion entirely that would also be a good one to have (albeit in a different thread).

 

[Tohsaka]

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

Going to a beach resort filled with beautiful women who want to hang out with you all day for two weeks isn't a fantasy?

 

[Dio]

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

Okay, and...? I don't think anyone in here is arguing that it isn't creepy. I just don't know why the discussion is going beyond 'Well, that's creepy. Anyway...' and leaving things as they are. I don't have that little faith in humanity that I think playing a videogame means scores of of-age young men are going to go out sexually harassing women because of it.

Unless there's some sort of study, or concrete foundation, in worrying about what people get up to behind closed doors I'm not sure what the issue is.

Besides, the women in DoA hardly look like actual women. It's pretty fantasy-rooted to me. Even if they did, though, that would be irrelevant IMO.

 

[DragonGirl]

This isn't a game where someone buys for some other purpose and then suddenly finding out, oh shit there's a rape part I'm forced to play through!

No.

The only reason why one would play this game is, hey this game allows you to harass women! I have no problem with that so I'm going to lay down the money to buy/import the title. You stepped into this willingly.
This game is not the issue because such games already exist in the first place, it has long existed on PC, PS4, VITA, DS. If you truly feel such games do not deserve to be sold, petition your ratings board to do their job.

That is not the point. Nothing that you have typed here indicates you understood anything of what I said and frankly, I am at a loss of how to spell it out in simpler or more obvious terms.

 

[depths20XX]

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

Yet there is no way you can quantify this other than assuming it. No studies, no data, no facts. It's just "I don't like this thing and it contributes to this".

No different than the early 90's backlash on vulgar lyrics in music. It has no basis and I have no reason to believe it. It completely dissolves a persons ability to have reason and understanding on the material that they enjoy. As if no one can separate reality from fiction.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

Guess what, you are playing a videogame, no matter how realistic your setting is, it's a fantasy. It's only up to the creator and you to determine how far you want that fantasy to go.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Okay, and...? I don't think anyone in here is arguing that it isn't creepy. I just don't know why the discussion is going beyond 'Well, that's creepy. Anyway...' and leaving things as they are. I don't have that little faith in humanity that I think playing a videogame means scores of of-age young men are going to go out sexually harassing women because of it.

Unless there's some sort of study, or concrete foundation, in worrying about what people get up to behind closed doors I'm not sure what the issue is.

Besides, the women in DoA hardly look like actual women. It's pretty fantasy-rooted to me.

Well a)yes there were people arguing that it isn't creepy. And b)think of how much harassment women face in this medium before saying something like playing games has no affect on the human mind, consider that we're also having a discussion where people are unironically defending a harassment simulator. And ask yourself how we got to this point in the first place were there are droves of men ready to die on the sword of being able to harass a woman wearing a bikini who expresses discomfort and can't do anything else.

Guess what, you are playing a videogame, no matter how realistic your setting is, it's a fantasy. It's only up to the creator and you to determine how far you want that fantasy to go.

-It's just a video game
-But what about violence
-Unironic use of the term Puritans
-Unironic use of the term SJWs
-Snarky insult about the website in the OP, usually in the form of "are they usually this bad."
-No one's hurt by it, they're just pixels/polygons/lines of ink that just happen to throw one specific gender under the bus for the sake of titillating the other.
-Sex is everywhere, not just in games
-Arguing the semantics of a specific term in the OP due to being too literal

Tell me more.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Considering how a large amount of the gaming community would want to keep women out of games in general due to constantly being pandered to, yes, yes it does have a direct correlation. Again, if you sincerely wanna discuss game violence, waiting on that thread.

I'm sorry but if you want that thread to be made so badly then you should consider doing it yourself. You want this particular discussion to focus in just one aspect you find problematic and it's okay if you do, but at some point you tried to shame people for finding this content exciting and even suggested that playing VR DOAX was REAL harassment, and that's when we made the comparison to the old arguments that violent games make you violent. If you don't like that comparison to the point you want somebody to make a thread about violence in games and their consequences maybe you should try to think a little bit about what you're writing before accusing and shaming people for playing a videogame.

 

[Red Frost]

It's a scenario depicting and normalizing harassment. This is problematic, because the scenario isn't routed in fantasy, like treasure hunting, or assassinating historical figures, or being a space marine, it's routed in a really grounded scenario, despite the mocap actress being told to act like a child.

We're going in circles here. You claim it's a realistic scenario because it isn't fantastical. I claim it isn't realistic because it's basically a heavily stylized porn set complete with unrealistic UI functions and a character that doesn't act like a human victim of harassment.

I have no idea how this discussion can progress, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[NOOI]

That is not the point. Nothing that you have typed here indicates you understood anything of what I said and frankly, i am at a loss of how to spell it out in simpler or more obvious terms.

We know what you are trying to say, we just don't agree with it.

If you think sexual assault in society is way too tolerated then your problem isn't with videogames, but with the legal system. You are trying to fight for sexual assault victims but you are targeting videogames, and that's where we disagree. I am all for justice for victims, I am all for sending rapists into the deepest hole we can find and leave them there to rot. But I will not allow you to try to joust against windmills like they are supposed to be 4-armed giants.

 

[M0nochromatic]

I don't expect many of those games to be made. I do expect a lot of "12 year old girl sexual assault simulators" to be made though.

I'm not arguing for game bans, I'm saying that these games are creepy.



People are literally comparing disgust at sexual assault simulators to disgust at women having agency so I think you have to add some other appeals there, duder.

Tu quoque is another great one.

 

[DragonGirl]

I agree with you in a greater societal sense, but in an individual case like this where we're seeing a heavily stylized anime girl getting poked by a floating metal ball, I really don't see it contributing to rape culture in the same way a student getting a slap on the wrist for rape does. It's a step below softcore porn rather than an actual normalization of harassment.

Unless you think porn also normalizes harassment, which is another discussion entirely that would also be a good one to have (albeit in a different thread).

What does the word "endemic" mean? Not one single game in existence is problematic taken individually. But a lot of little drops can form a flood. Whats more, not a single game would be a problem if the world's cultures did not already have a problem with how to treat women. So what do you do about the endemic problem other than try to change all of the little sources of cultural feedback. You start by discussing it seriously, not by dismissing it.

 

[Dio]

Well a)yes there were people arguing that it isn't creepy. And b)think of how much harassment women face in this medium before saying something like playing games has no affect on the human mind, consider that we're also having a discussion where people are unironically defending a harassment simulator. And ask yourself how we got to this point in the first place were there are droves of men ready to die on the sword of being able to harass a woman wearing a bikini who expresses discomfort and can't do anything else.

Tell me more.

If there was a Holocaust simulator where you played as Hitler directing the SS, or even an SS officer administrating a concentration camp, I would defend it, too.

It's not about dying on the sword of playing this particular VR game, it's defending the right for all expression of any kind. It's not just games, too - this extends to books and movies.

 

[xk0sm0sx]

That is not the point. Nothing that you have typed here indicates you understood anything of what I said and frankly, I am at a loss of how to spell it out in simpler or more obvious terms.

Actually I should have pointed out I typed that just for your second last line:

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

That this game isn't going to influence anyone who isn't already influenced, because it's specially made for that.
But I agree I went off the point quoting your entire post.

So what do you do about the endemic problem other than try to change all of the little sources of cultural feedback. You start by discussing it seriously, not by dismissing it.

Yeah sure, but this genre has always existed in some forms, in some subcultures. There is nothing you can do to stop it from existing.
Also, it isn't even coming out for you. This has always been a niche game, if anything this thread is now giving it the attention to be mainstream.

The main issue I have with people who always start such controversies, is that most of the time they won't even know the game exists if not for the people who likes it bring it to their attention.

 

[Leafhopper]

I get both sides of this argument, even what people are saying about context but, personally I think it's a bit too stupid to be taken this seriously. A 3D model of character that's 19 voiced by a 40 year old woman saying things in such an overly anime sort of way is so unrealistic and boring, I don't get why people waste their money on DoAX anyway. As with all of the DoAX games. It's cheaper to just go look up fanart, doujins or videos of DoA characters or said videos from this very game. I guess it's graphical fidelity is the reason why though.

What I don't really get is people keep tossing the word "intent" around when KT and Team Ninja have always been pretty upfront about what they are offering with DoA: Unrealistic (and stupid) anime titty.

You can call it creepy though, I get why one would say that.

When is Dead or Alive 6 coming out so we can get back to the actual fighting game?

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm sorry but if you want that thread to be made so badly then you should consider doing it yourself. You want this particular discussion to focus in just one aspect you find problematic and it's okay if you do, but at some point you tried to shame people for finding this content exciting and even suggested that playing VR DOAX was REAL harassment, and that's when we made the comparison to the old arguments that violent games make you violent. If you don't like that comparison to the point you want somebody to make a thread about violence in games and their consequences maybe you should try to think a little bit about what you're writing before accusing and shaming people for playing a videogame.

I'm not the one trying to derail the thread with constant deflecting to "but muh violence." Criticism isn't shaming. IF you guys truly wanted to discuss violence in gaming, then you would've started the thread long ago, but myself and others know hte real reason why you keep trying to bring it up to distract from the actual discussion, it's a nice try, but it's incredibly transparent. No one gives a shit about game violence in this scenario, as someone that has criticized some games for their depictions of violence in the past, Start.The.Thread. I'd be happy to discuss it there instead of trying to derail this one via explaining over and over and over over again why it's not very relevant here. In fact, let's reiterate:

Majority of posts in this thread about butwhataboutvideogameviolence™ are just as disingenuous. I'm not telling you to go somewhere else, only that i'm not gonna entertain a deflection, if you wanna discuss the actual game, and the topics I mentioned are incredibly relevant to discussion, (that me and others have actually been discussing), then be my guest. I'm beyond fed up with the common rhetoric seen in these threads.
-It's just a video game
-But what about violence
-Unironic use of the term Puritans
-Unironic use of the term SJWs
-Snarky insult about the website in the OP, usually in the form of "are they usually this bad."
-No one's hurt by it, they're just pixels/polygons/lines of ink that just happen to throw one specific gender under the bus for the sake of titillating the other.
Sex is everywhere, not just in games
-Arguing the semantics of a specific term in the OP due to being too literal

ALL of these incredibly common rhetoric were used in this thread. All of them have next to nothing to do with the actual subject but instead, serve as a deflection from the actual creepy shit that's on display, the implications of said creepy shit, and the reason why said creepy shit is creepy in the first place. Because somehow, a bunch of adults need to be explained why some take issue with a game that allows you to sexualize harass women who, as others said, including the article, aren't able to defend themselves, or do anything besides express discomfort, when, by god, there's shit like GG, there's shit like people literally getting away with rape via a slap on the wrist, when there's a shit ton of developers trying to improve the industry by instead of constantly objectifying and sexualizing women, they decide, "No, we can do better," when there's a 1 in 5 chance that a woman will experience harassment not very far off from the shit in the video of the OP at some point during their life time. When there's so many good implications of VR and THIS is the shit these devs came up with. When video games are arguably the most immature entertainment medium when it comes to sexuality considering that way too many gamers confuse the objectification and sexualization with sexuality. When the country that this game originates from has an incredibly rampant sexism issue in it's media to the point that "idols" aren't even allowed to be human and actually date people without risk of being harassed or in worse case scenario murdered. You know what doesn't help any of those above situations, a sexual harassment simulator. That's why we're here. That's why this thread exists. Those are all incredibly valid reasons to scrutinize the shit in the OP.

When it looks like this:

or this:

or this:

or this:

and that's without ignoring the context that hey, a lot of games punish you for going after civilians, including GTA, AC, WD, SR, etc. but reward you for going after enemies that can defend themselves like mercenaries, robots, aliens etc. and the current video game climate where even fucking GoW is now about Kratos no longer getting super angry about everything and destroying everything in his past but being a loving father to his son, and a ton of games that allow the player to play non lethally nowadays. Meanwhile, games that depict more grounded kinds of violence without context like punishing the player for going on a murderous rampage or that just being the point, i.e. Hatred, are banned here on GAF and were heavily criticized by large parts of the industry including developers. Because of the correlation with real world things that happen to actual people, like shootings, or in this case, harassment. There are very VERY few games that are literally just murder simulators with very little context. And those that are are usually panned critically by the industry

Let me lay this down for some of you to understand why virtual sexual harassment/creeping is more problematic than killing people in video games.

In real life, there is no "murder culture". Murder and mass shootings happen, but they are not normal, nor are they tolerated. You kill, you go to prison, people don't generally blame the victims for their own deaths. Unless you are very paranoid, you don't step outside afraid that somebody is going to come running down the street shooting everybody.

In real life, there is absolutely a "rape culture". Disregard for a woman's bodily integrity and ownership, and creeping, they do happen, and they are tolerated. You rape a woman, maybe you go to prison, or maybe you get a slap on the wrist because some judge feels sorry for you, being such a promising college athlete and heavens, wouldn't want this to negatively impact your life. Victims of harassment and rape are blamed all the time for what happens to them. If you are a woman, you don't need to be paranoid about walking outside and having somebody assert that they are entitled to you, creep on you, harass you, because that's just another Tuesday.

Video game violence does not reflect the world and seeing as culture does not blithely tolerate murder (unless you're a cop) there is little risk that Jane and Joe Average are going to go on a murder spree because video games.

The cross roads of women and sex in video games, depending on how it is portrayed, very much reflects a cultural sickness, adding another link in the feedback loop that hey, this shit is a-okay.

One of these feeds into an endemic problem with deep cultural roots, the other does not. That is why your attempt to dismiss this by saying "but violence!" is bullshit.

I've actually dissected the violence argument more than once, yet the replies keep boiling down to :well video game violence is ok right?1 And the annoying thing is i'm still waiting for that thread. Because you just HAVE to discuss it, or is this thread too special to leave?

If there was a Holocaust simulator where you played as Hitler directing the SS, or even an SS officer administrating a concentration camp, I would defend it, too.

It's not about dying on the sword of playing this particular VR game, it's defending the right for all expression of any kind. It's not just games, too - this extends to books and movies.

Find me where someone said this shouldn't exist altogether? 16 page thread so it shouldn't be that difficult, stop confusing intense criticism with saying that it shouldn't exist. All the issues about why it's problematic have been laid out, none of them say it shouldn't exist.

 

[Red Frost]

What does the word "endemic" mean? Not one single game in existence is problematic taken individually. But a lot of little drops can form a flood. Whats more, not a single game would be a problem if the world's cultures did not already have a problem with how to treat women. So what do you do about the endemic problem other than try to change all of the little sources of cultural feedback. You start by discussing it seriously, not by dismissing it.

I don't disagree, but I also think this is such a broad description of culture in general and how the media does or does not affect it that it can be applied to so many things if not everything period.

Discussion is good as is criticism, but it's also possible to be critical of said criticism. Is Metal Gear Solid V's depiction of Quiet furthering rape culture? I don't know, but it's a fair discussion to have. Is a niche game only released in Japan that's intentionally voyeuristic and has sold to less than .01% of the population furthering rape culture? I don't think so. Context matters.

I just see it as a misaimed target.

 

[Dio]

Find me where someone said this shouldn't exist altogether? 16 page thread so it shouldn't be that difficult, stop confusing intense criticism with saying that it shouldn't exist. All the issues about why it's problematic have been laid out, none of them say it shouldn't exist.

I figured there'd be at least one person here calling for it in this thread. I didn't want to read all 16 pages of the thread, so if there really is no one in here saying that, then there's no problem and I'm not sure why I'm even posting in this thread now.

That was the only thing I was against, so if you don't want to get rid of it I ain't got beef.

 

[depths20XX]

Uh you're still missing the point of violence being just as absurd as bouncing around anime titties. Not sure why you keep posting those gifs as some sort of "gotcha" point.

 

[DragonGirl]

Yet there is no way you can quantify this other than assuming it. No studies, no data, no facts. It's just "I don't like this thing and it contributes to this".

No different than the early 90's backlash on vulgar lyrics in music. It has no basis and I have no reason to believe it. It completely dissolves a persons ability to have reason and understanding on the material that they enjoy. As if no one can separate reality from fiction.

It's easy to disbelieve what you don't live. And you have gone far beyond the point that I was making. Let me try again in the simplest way possible:

Video game violence does not equate video game portrayal of sexual harassment/treatment/portrayal, etc.

because

video game violence does not reflect cultural "norms"

however

video game portrayals of sexual harassment/treatment/portrayal, etc. do.

therefore

Do not begin a discussion of this topic by trying to dismiss it with a vapid "why complain about this if you are okay with video game violence".

That is the entirety of the content of my statement. This may shock you, but nowhere in there did I actually say anything about this particular game, or express my personal feelings about it. My ire was entirely with those people who chose to deflect with a red herring rather than engage with more than a mud puddle's depth of understanding why this is even a discussion.