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polygons per second?

The Saturn renders 200,000 textured mapped quads, not polygons. 500,000 flat shaded.

Quads are still polygons. But you are right that the Saturn's quadrilateral polygons can't be directly compared to the triangular polygons that all the other systems use.

A quad is naturally more computationally expensive than a single triangle but less resource hungry than two triangles so it's an apples to oranges comparison.
 
Overall this number is fairly meaningless on its own. It's like saying "my car is faster than yours because it has a bigger spoiler". That can be true, but there are almost always other factors involved.

The GPU in the 360 runs at 500mhz, and RSX in the PS3 is believed to run at 550mhz. 500mhz means 500 million cycles per second. Some very simple maths shows that the 360 can set up one triangle per clock cycle, and RSX takes two cycles.
Pretty much everything on a GPU can be measured by how many cycles it takes to process, but that's not the whole story either.

A GPU is not a CPU, it doesn't do one thing at once. It's a massively parallel machine with a large number of separate systems all working in a work pipeline. That is; the triangle set up engine will be working on a triangle, while the shader core will be shading completely unrelated pixels / vertices, the texture fetch unit will be reading various texture samples and the memory system will be reading memory from all over the place. This is obviously a massively simplified view of how the system works.

So if it takes 100 cycles to process a vertex (a typical vertex shader complexity), then that means there is a 100 cycle latency on the next step in the pipeline. Performance is not a 1+2=3 thing, it's a max(1,2) = 2 thing.

The point is that the overall GPU performance is only as fast as the biggest bottleneck. Each system will be utilised at a different level, and vary rarely is every system being utilised anywhere near 100% capacity. For example, there are few reasons for doing texture fetches while rendering a shadow map - but the triangle rate, depth testing, ROP rates etc are very important for shadow maps - because they are the bottlenecks.

Technically, RSX has more grunt than Xenos in the 360 - it can do a higher number of theoretical operations per clock cycle. However the architecture is quite different, the 360 importantly has a unified shader core (which means vertex program and fragment program processing and texture fetch units share the same hardware resources) whereas on RSX these are two distinct units (with their own limits and latencies). This type of design will typically mean that Xenos has higher average utilisation, and therefore greater efficiency. It also means that getting better performance out of RSX will be more difficult - as it harder to balance the workload for high utilisation.

This is partially why the SPUs are heavily used for vertex/triangle processing on the PS3 - as it moves the bottleneck off the GPU and onto the SPUs, allowing the rest of the GPU to achieve higher utilisation at the (often large) cost to CPU resources - I believe uncharted 2 spent around 40% of its SPU time on vertex processing.


I hope this helps explain why GPU performance can't be measured in one single statistic.
 
Overall this number is fairly meaningless on its own. It's like saying "my car is faster than yours because it has a bigger spoiler". That can be true, but there are almost always other factors involved.

The GPU in the 360 runs at 500mhz, and RSX in the PS3 is believed to run at 550mhz. 500mhz means 500 million cycles per second. Some very simple maths shows that the 360 can set up one triangle per clock cycle, and RSX takes two cycles.
Pretty much everything on a GPU can be measured by how many cycles it takes to process, but that's not the whole story either.

A GPU is not a CPU, it doesn't do one thing at once. It's a massively parallel machine with a large number of separate systems all working in a work pipeline. That is; the triangle set up engine will be working on a triangle, while the shader core will be shading completely unrelated pixels / vertices, the texture fetch unit will be reading various texture samples and the memory system will be reading memory from all over the place. This is obviously a massively simplified view of how the system works.

So if it takes 100 cycles to process a vertex (a typical vertex shader complexity), then that means there is a 100 cycle latency on the next step in the pipeline. Performance is not a 1+2=3 thing, it's a max(1,2) = 2 thing.

The point is that the overall GPU performance is only as fast as the biggest bottleneck. Each system will be utilised at a different level, and vary rarely is every system being utilised anywhere near 100% capacity. For example, there are few reasons for doing texture fetches while rendering a shadow map - but the triangle rate, depth testing, ROP rates etc are very important for shadow maps - because they are the bottlenecks.

Technically, RSX has more grunt than Xenos in the 360 - it can do a higher number of theoretical operations per clock cycle. However the architecture is quite different, the 360 importantly has a unified shader core (which means vertex program and fragment program processing and texture fetch units share the same hardware resources) whereas on RSX these are two distinct units (with their own limits and latencies). This type of design will typically mean that Xenos has higher average utilisation, and therefore greater efficiency. It also means that getting better performance out of RSX will be more difficult - as it harder to balance the workload for high utilisation.

This is partially why the SPUs are heavily used for vertex/triangle processing on the PS3 - as it moves the bottleneck off the GPU and onto the SPUs, allowing the rest of the GPU to achieve higher utilisation at the (often large) cost to CPU resources - I believe uncharted 2 spent around 40% of its SPU time on vertex processing.


I hope this helps explain why GPU performance can't be measured in one single statistic.
A pretty educational post, sir. I hope Joe Gaffer learned a thing or two from it.

That said, trisetup proved to be a bottleneck on the RSX in more than a few occasions. So while those numbers mean little on their own, they do bring to practical performance implications on RSX, particularly with ports from Xenos.
 
A pretty educational post, sir. I hope Joe Gaffer learned a thing or two from it.

That said, trisetup proved to be a bottleneck on the RSX in more than a few occasions. So while those numbers mean little on their own, they do bring to practical performance implications on RSX, particularly with ports from Xenos.

Building on that: It's also worth noting that not all engines are created equally. In theory the SPUs on the PS3 can be utilized to offload geometry processing from the GPU. However, it's not always the case that the engine was programmed for that. Long story short: Just because Manufacturer X claims their system can do Y doesn't mean that the team building the engine has fully utilized the hardware in that way.

As has been said several times above: there are too many factors involved in creating a game to make assumptions that raw numbers are what you're seeing onscreen. Polys per second as a statistic on its own is a meaningless reference point.
 
If I remember correctly, a common approach when spouting the pps figures for systems was to talk about the count in terms of infinitely small untextured unlit polygons. Legend has it (I dunno if it was ever corroborated, but given what we saw the system do, it has a ring of truth) that this hurt Nintendo in the Gamecube era; If I remember right, the Xbox was touting 75M polygons per second, the PS2... 66M, was it? And the Gamecube only advertised 18M or so. The thing was, though, the Gamecube numbers were in terms of polygons rendered in an actual plausible game setting, while the other figures were the infinitely-small unlit untextured ones mentioned earlier

It's possibly an apocryphal story, but it does have a ring of truth to it when you compare the best-looking Gamecube games against those from the other systems.

Err not really, when you consider that the Gamecube had the game with the highest polygon count of that generation (Rebel Strike)
 
360 has unified shaders so it will push more polygons in theory, of course thats only if you are drawing polygons.
Those figures are for triangle setup limits. What the shaders can do is a different matter. For instance, RSX with its 8 vertex shader units should be able to produce 2 triangles per clock averaged (for ultra-light mvp-only vertex shading, the kind you'd use for shadow-map generation). That's 1.1G tri/s. RSX's triangle setup rate though says the pipeline can handle only 275M tri/s, fullstop. That's a hard limit, regardless of what the vertex shaders can theoretically produce.
 
Holyshit at the amount of misinformation on this thread! The numbers aren't fake or lies; they're simply raw numbers outside of any practical context.

The reason it bodes better for the 360 is because it's shaders are fully programmable while the PS3's shaders are divided in to the previous generation's fixed pixel and vertex shader pipelines. It wouldn't make sense to have a game that used all the programmable shaders as vertex shaders so you will never get up to 500 million points. You will never have a mesh that allows you to render a polygon that equates 500 million polygons to 500 million points either. Developers can be more flexible in the 360's pipeline which works great with it's unified memory. Good developers knowing limits ahead of time can design around fixed limitations so such differences won't be a problem.
 
Overall this number is fairly meaningless on its own. It's like saying "my car is faster than yours because it has a bigger spoiler". That can be true, but there are almost always other factors involved.

You understand the rendering pipeline, but you know nothing about cars :) A much better analogy would have been engine displacement. That's basically what these polygon rates are telling you. It's an important thing, but not the singular most important thing.
 
The Saturn renders 200,000 textured mapped quads, not polygons. 500,000 flat shaded.

That means 6K visible quads at 30fps. That's far, far more than your typical Saturn game. The only games I can think that get close to that number are Virtua Figther 2/DOA/Last Bronx (the three used the same engine and had two characters with 1000~1200 quads each at 60fps) and the Shenmue prototype.
 
How many polygons per second is a game like Dead Rising 2 pushing for all the Zombies? Also why do enemys in Resident Evil the Mercenaries 3D look like they move 5 FPS when they are really far away? It makes it hard to snipe.
 
When was the last time you honestly looked at a game and said, "this needs more polygons"? Nowadays, what matters more are things like shaders, smoothing, resolution, and framerate.
 
When was the last time you honestly looked at a game and said, "this needs more polygons"? Nowadays, what matters more are things like shaders, smoothing, resolution, and framerate.

All games out today except a few, texture quality has to be a lot better next gen. Can't stand how games today still have textures looking like from 2005-2006
 
Also why do enemys in Resident Evil the Mercenaries 3D look like they move 5 FPS when they are really far away? It makes it hard to snipe.

To reduce the CPU load of processing the animations. Example: let's say your animation code can animate 7 characters at 30Hz. By only animating the nearest 4 characters at 30Hz and the rest at 15Hz you can animate 10 characters instead.

Some HD games do this with shadows and reflections.
 
How many polygons per second is a game like Dead Rising 2 pushing for all the Zombies? Also why do enemys in Resident Evil the Mercenaries 3D look like they move 5 FPS when they are really far away? It makes it hard to snipe.

The first Dead Rising game on Xbox 360 was ~4 million polygons per frame. 120 million/s.
 
When was the last time you honestly looked at a game and said, "this needs more polygons"? Nowadays, what matters more are things like shaders, smoothing, resolution, and framerate.


Everytime I look at a game. In order to reach the cinematic level visuals people keep blathering on about every time a new piece of graphics hardware comes out, we need to render at minimum a half billion polygons every second at HD resolutions. Ideally you need at least 4 polygons for every pixel that is on the screen. Now I don't think raw polygon performance is more important than filtrate, however, it's more important than most people in this thread seem to think it is.
 
Whle polygons per second doesn't really mean anywhere near what it use to, I'm amazed that the 360 can pump out almost double the PS3.

wow. What kind of shitty GPU is the PS3 running?
 
To reduce the CPU load of processing the animations. Example: let's say your animation code can animate 7 characters at 30Hz. By only animating the nearest 4 characters at 30Hz and the rest at 15Hz you can animate 10 characters instead.

Some HD games do this with shadows and reflections.

I see , I always wondered the technical part of that.
 
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