-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Poor Vita performance dragging down Sony's entire gaming unit
- Thread starter SmokedMeat
- Start date
Mizzou Gaming
Member
You know it's been a really bad generation when you have to point to what the PS3 has accomplished for any sort of positive news because it's been a well documented rough road for that device as well considering the massive amounts of market share it has fumbled away.
I dont want to hear this nonsense. I have used all sorts of 3G forever. What you are calling 'playable' is ridiculous. You are taking some extreme liberties with that description. Noone is going to want to play a game like COD with the terrible pings that 3G gets you. I would love to hear what carrier you are using seeing as I have tested it on all of the major ones.
Heck, do me one better, go get us some latency test results of your 3G so we can see the latency. The horrible baseline latency of 3G means it doesn't matter whether Sony hosts their servers or not. Your lag is going to be ridiculous for a FPS. Online FPS are not a genre that will ever 'benefit' from the ability to play over 3G. 3G has good speed, it has terrible latency.
I somewhat get the impression that Sony tried, but now knows the Vita isn't going to make it long. Given that knowledge, they a) don't want to spend a lot more on it, b) still want for it to last as long as possible, c) want to make as much money on it as possible. If this is true (not saying it is, just something I'm watching for), they'll still push some games they know they can make a profit on and try to make the existing fanbase happy to an extent. They'll try to leave developers/fans with the impression the system didn't just die and lasted a few years even if its life is fairly short. They won't however want to lower prices on memory cards (pure profit area) and won't want to sell the system at a loss until its literally a choice between watching it die and getting another 6 months or so out of it. They'll also be reluctant to moneyhat. They might announce a lot of ports/cheaper games and will still keep a few bigger priced games.
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
I agree with this post, except I think they'd rather kill it than lower the price to cause a loss. Sony showed their hand at E3. If Sony was committed to Vita they'd have their top development teams working on Vita games and they would have had E3 focused on Vita instead of a console near the end of its life cycle. Basically they're doing the exact opposite things Nintendo has done with the 3DS.
FWIW, I really can't blame Sony. I think Vita has major market positioning issues that are impossible to solve.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
at this point the only hope for vita is for it to:
1) diversify by becoming a phone and becoming a tablet. I'm saying both. There should be 3 options out on the market, much like Apple is doing with the iPod/iPhone/iPad. You cater to many different crowds for little difference in the hardware.
2) get android games to work on it.
3) Launch PS Mobile.
PS Mobile is a huge wild card here, still. I think there will be quite a bit of synergy involved once PS Mobile is out in the wild and released. Sony (and other publishers) will be able to sell their games on Androids in addition to Vita, which will make the cost of publishing on Vita lower and more attractive.
1) diversify by becoming a phone and becoming a tablet. I'm saying both. There should be 3 options out on the market, much like Apple is doing with the iPod/iPhone/iPad. You cater to many different crowds for little difference in the hardware.
2) get android games to work on it.
3) Launch PS Mobile.
PS Mobile is a huge wild card here, still. I think there will be quite a bit of synergy involved once PS Mobile is out in the wild and released. Sony (and other publishers) will be able to sell their games on Androids in addition to Vita, which will make the cost of publishing on Vita lower and more attractive.
Barkley's Justice
Member
Sony should extend the PlayStation brand to all of their consumer devices. "PlayStation" could mean music on your receiver, Movies onyour tv, games on your console. Then when you buy any movie or game or video, they play across all of your devices. It's the most basic fucking concept yo. No S.E.N...No Qriosity...Just "PlayStation"...On. Everything. PlayStation phone. PlayStation tablet. LCD tv with PlayStation frontend. Fuckig ay...
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
TTM would be the best point for comparison as it'd generally smooth out direct inequalities like "worldwide system launch" to "post holiday stock clearing". Unfortunately 3DS still lacking 12 month blocks to compare makes that difficult, and simply bundling it with other declining platforms obfuscates it's own uniquely positive recent performance.
All entertainment competes for time (and thus dollars), which isn't exactly a new concept. There's arguably more competition now than ever, with the current econimic climate also arguably less spending, and I'd definitely say this is impacting both handhelds and consoles. I'd also say the figures I showed comparing DS to 3DS software and hardware products shows a rather impressive resilience for the latter in the face of that.
I wasn't so much commenting on 3DS managing the same absolute heights as I was trying to understand where you plucked that sudden standard from. And now you seem back to bundling on top of that.
So overall TTM for consoles declined then, and there's a lack of growth with HD consoles... how again are you drawing a line from this to overall handheld decline (with recent 3D handheld growth)? I wasn't the one originally drawing this comparison, you were...
I completely agree with this post. These are almost word for word my exact feelings on the Vita.
I can't even imagine the feelings of betrayal that the hardware engineers must have; their baby, their awesome baby that really LISTENED to feedback on the first model... it was sent out into the wild without a coat.
I can't even imagine the feelings of betrayal that the hardware engineers must have; their baby, their awesome baby that really LISTENED to feedback on the first model... it was sent out into the wild without a coat.
shinra-bansho
Member
I'm not sure what you mean by "now" as my comments have been in reference to total handhelds and a shifting marketplace.
I'm also not really sure what you mean by "sudden standard" when referring to past handheld shipment numbers to suggest a contraction between 2008 and now, after an expansion occurred with the NDS and PSP (in Japan and EU). What is there to measure against if not the past?
I don't think the question is whether contraction has occurred but why? generational fatigue? Or new competition?
Which is why I asked whether you expect shipments to increase to 2008 levels again - i.e. whether you think this contraction is permanent - and what rationale upon which to expect it to.
(Erratum: I checked and I wasn't correct in my recollection of HD hardware shipments - they've increased - I was looking at home console HW shipments overall.)
I wasn't actually drawing a comparison or drawing a line in the comment you're presumably referring to - I was speculating that rise of alternative platforms may be impacting home console platforms now and will also impact future home console HW platforms - as I believe they're impacting handheld platforms.
GoofsterStud
Member
Hardware wise the thing is amazing. Software and company backing leave room to be desired.
Still the emulation that could be done on this. Either it needs Software or a CFW that can play homebrew/emulators for me to jump the guns.
Still the emulation that could be done on this. Either it needs Software or a CFW that can play homebrew/emulators for me to jump the guns.
Yeah, that was just a really bad choice of terms - especially when a handheld system has been the highest selling system every year going well back into the 2000s - and that won't change this year either.
I'm not sure what the fixation is on western markets, though. For the full 2012, the 3DS will be right there in the same ballpark (if not ahead) with the 360/PS3 in western totals, and well ahead in worldwide totals. But using a more fair comparison, where the systems are allowed a chance to build a base and grow...
360 NPD first 16 months - 5.06M
PS3 NPD first 16 months - 3.79M
3DS NPD first 16 months - 5.12M
And that's with the 360 and PS3 each having 2 holiday seasons vs. just 1 for the 3DS. The 3DS is ahead of both 360 and PS3 at the same point in time in the west.
If the Vita does die (it won't anytime soon) it's good to know it will eventually be a perfect homebrew device. The PSP can run Super Mario 64 fullspeed (without sound), so I figure the Vita would be able to emulate every system up to the N64, and possibly more. Can't wait!
I really wanted to get a VITA when it came out, i have always been a PC/Nintendo gamer, i have owned all Nintendo handhelds/consoles minus the virtual boy and the only reason i didnt buy it was because of money issues but i cracked this gen and finally bought a PS3. My very first console outside of Nintendo and it felt good to do it.
But, when i started to really look at the Vita a month or so from it's launch in America it bothered the shit out of me that Sony was pulling another proprietary bullshit card with the memory card. To add to the insult, they are expensive as fuck compared to an SD card which Nintendo gave to you free with the 3DS. Sony never fucking learns from their mistakes especially with the PSP. Honestly, the whole rear touch panel thing to blew my mind, why include a useless piece of shit like that? However with that said, if Sony drops the price of the Vita significantly and bundles a memory card with every Vita going forward i will buy one.
But, when i started to really look at the Vita a month or so from it's launch in America it bothered the shit out of me that Sony was pulling another proprietary bullshit card with the memory card. To add to the insult, they are expensive as fuck compared to an SD card which Nintendo gave to you free with the 3DS. Sony never fucking learns from their mistakes especially with the PSP. Honestly, the whole rear touch panel thing to blew my mind, why include a useless piece of shit like that? However with that said, if Sony drops the price of the Vita significantly and bundles a memory card with every Vita going forward i will buy one.
For one, how many systems have ever put up numbers like the DS? Just the PS2, and barely at that. So expecting the 3DS to surpass the DS is expecting the 3DS to be the best selling system in the history of dedicated gaming systems (handheld or console).
But two, the PSP falsely skewed the handheld market numbers. In the history of the gaming sector, the market has never really supported more than one handheld on a worldwide basis. That was distorted with the PSP the first few years. Playstation was the king of all gaming brands, and Sony was finally bringing Playstation to handhelds. The hype for the PSP was through the roof, and it cemented a place for itself in the market off that hype and brand name during the first few years. Once the hype died down, the system faded away and 80% of the gaming world returned to a one-handheld market.
So this time around, the chances of a return to a historical handheld monopoly are looking pretty strong - which will undoubtedly result in a sizable contraction from the previous generation - but reverting back to a predominantly single handheld marketplace is more of a return to the norm in a historical context. The temporary rise of the PSP was the anomaly in the history of the handheld marketplace.
frAntic_Frog
Member
tablet....yes (let vita have wifi PC accessibility without the proprietary Connect software)
phone.....f**k no. i dont need another contract subscription based electronic that will be thrown away/replaced-by-new-handheld in two years
i like sony's initiative on PS Apps/PS Suite, and the bringing over of android type games.....i wish sony would greatly expand it though and on a faster scale.....lets hope they will ramp up the program once its done with beta testing (where the hell is angry birds for the VITA????)
Games I'm looking forward to for my vita:
Assassins Creed Liberation
A new JRPG (sorry final fantasy x)
God of War built from the ground up
PsOne classics (to deal with software release gaps)
The problem? Two are announced and coming. The other has no release date. The other doesn't exist yet.
Assassins Creed Liberation
A new JRPG (sorry final fantasy x)
God of War built from the ground up
PsOne classics (to deal with software release gaps)
The problem? Two are announced and coming. The other has no release date. The other doesn't exist yet.
DiscoJer
Member
It's funny, I said the same thing before the Vita launched I was told I was crazy, Sony can't compete with Apple.
Even though of course, they already are, both in tablets, phones, and by constantly releasing new models of Walkman (which basically are like ipod touches).
But trying to compete in a unified manner, rather than piecemeal, each division doing something different just makes more sense.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
The entire point of the Vita is the strength and range of control methods. Turning it into some half-baked generic tablet ipad knockoff totally removes that! Can't believe people keep suggesting it.
It's a great machine, but the approach to the Vita is a mess - Sony seem to have no interest at all in promoting it, SCEA particularly.
This approach and the terrible E3 non-presence and I'm convinced they're doing the bare minimum required to keep it afloat for a while to get some sales then are gonna let it fade away (as much as I don't want that to happen.) It's certainly made me lose confidence in Sony products - hype the fuck out of something then send it out to die. Not sure why new customers should feel any different.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
it would not. think of the tablet as a larger screen PSVita with android OS on it IN ADDITION TO the Vita OS. Same controls would be available.
but i think it should be noted that PSP was treated in much the same manner the first go-around.
I think what Sony likes to do is release a product and let it coast for a while. PSVita benefits from PSP "backwards compatibility" insofar that there are already tons of PSP games available for purchase online, and UMDs are fast becoming scarce anyway.
I think Sony will eventually bring out a few big hitters. They just seem to like to take their time with it for whatever reason. I am confident that the Vita will eventually become as good if not better than the PSP. The PSP has an amazing library of games when all is said and done and it didnt take off like gangbusters.
The same goes for the 3DS, although it is the first time Nintendo has struggled with a handheld.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Yeah, same controls could be pretty good but I doubt they'd be keen to bring out another product when the current one is struggling. Their approach is just confusing - usually when a company has a product with flagging sales they will do something to promote it to increase them. They seem to not be that bothered. I'll agree that the PSP was amazing later in its life, though...hoping for the same but I'm not convinced.
Umm - Virtual Boy ring a bell?
But honestly, the 3DS is right where the DS was at this point as well (not that it will keep up with it moving forward).But as for the PSP...
PSP through 5 months NPD - 1.72M
Vita through 5 months NPD - 0.63M
PSP through 33 weeks Japan - 1.54M
Vita through 33 weeks Japan - 0.85M
There's no comparison between PSP and Vita. PSP was trouncing Vita at this point in time. (Vita is less than half of where PSP was based on Japan + US).
...........................
This really has nothing to do with Vita tho.... Marketing and games are
Metallix87
Member
Umm - Virtual Boy ring a bell?
Virtual Boy was not a handheld. I can't believe people still believe that.
shinra-bansho
Member
They make up the majority of the market. Also, by currently selling more, I meant on a month by month basis - although the argument can be made that Nintendo systems skew even more towards the Holiday season than other systems.
(The PSP continued to sell in PAL regions iirc. It became irrelevant in NA though.)
I'm not necessarily saying that the 3DS must match the NDS, but rather the handheld market should be able to match the handheld market of yore. And if it can't then presumably it's contracting. And if it's contracting then is there a reason?
If the PSP was an anomaly built on hype rather than any substantive software - it still doesn't explain what happened to the audience it garnered. And that it's market was simply hype fueled would probably be contested by examining how the 3DS, having already consumed the NDS, is essentially eating away the PSP's sales in lieu of the PSV in Japan.
Even looking at Nintendo handhelds in isolation, in arguing that the NDS's annual sales cannot be matched - aren't you essentially saying it was also an anomaly - and if it was, then why? What's happened to the audience that fueled annual sales of 30M units?
The PS2 was tremendously successful, but when one removes the Wii the annual aggregate sales of the home consoles is similar now as it was during the last two generations - it's simply been divided. When one includes the Wii the market expanded dramatically and then contracted just as dramatically, back to 6th generation levels. Ergo was the Wii also something of an anomaly?
The common denominator, I would speculate, is the expanded audience that the NDS and Wii appealed greatly to, which also happens to be the predominant audience of the experiences on offer on the AppStore, Google Play and Facebook. I think they've migrated to these new platforms with no intention of returning, ergo I don't see handhelds matching the annual sales of the past - and I would say next gen consoles also won't be able to match the aggregate annual sales of the 7th generation.
And if handhelds (or home consoles for that matter) are to return to being the plaything of predominantly children and enthusiasts, then I don't really see the issue with viewing them as a niche product, or servicing a niche market.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Sony: "let's pour all this money into creating an amazing handheld, give it almost zero marketing, and stop letting core fans know what big titles are coming up for it down the line - if there are any worthwhile titles still to come at all! Bulletproof strategy!"
It's almost like they don't even know the handheld exists. WTF kind of "support" did they show for it at E3?!
There are only 2 things I care about on the Vita: Persona 4 and Gravity Rush. And that's including revealed, "upcoming wave" of games. What a joke.
It's almost like they don't even know the handheld exists. WTF kind of "support" did they show for it at E3?!
There are only 2 things I care about on the Vita: Persona 4 and Gravity Rush. And that's including revealed, "upcoming wave" of games. What a joke.
Its a embarrassing game, As a Sony fan I want to hide it and act like they never happen
Anyway I only have LittleBigPlanet vita on my want list, what happen to them games that where being showed? I need more then one game and I need to know they more coming! I got burn with PSP I'am not falling for the same poor support
and I have a ps3 so any game for both I can play there without it being water down
Metallix87
Member
The name is not the problem, unless you want to discuss the relevance of the "PlayStation" name.
Wow, what? Whats embarrassing about the game? You people as your loyalist attitudes are effing hilarious lol
Everyone whose been in the beta has only had positive things to say. "As a playstation fan" all-stars is my most wanted game this year. Can't wait til it comes out so I can play the hell out of it.
It was more of a bizarre 3rd-pillar table-top type of thing. Not really a console, not really a handheld.
But it was a joke dude. Did you not see the
at the end of the comment. Followed by "But seriously..." Sheesh - tough crowd.And yet somehow a handheld (which is supposedly "niche" in that majority of the market) has been the best-selling system worldwide for the better part of a decade now. And that's not changing this year either.
Not to take the holiday seasonal effect into account would just be asinine. I'm sure you would even concede that the 3DS will likely finish 2012 in the same ballpark (if not ahead) of both the 360 and PS3 for the full 2012 year in the west. In that case, I'm not even sure why you're bringing this point up.
And yeah - the PSP kept selling middling numbers in both NA and Europe, but was mostly irrelevant in both markets after the first few years.
But which yore? The GBC era? The GBA era? The DS/PSP era? Yes, handhelds will fall off from the DS/PSP era - but may very well hold their own or even surpass other previous handheld eras.
Not really. Remove the Wii and GC from the equation, and there's still drop-off.
Taking sales up to the replacements hit the market:
PS2 (6.5 years) + XBox (4 years) ~ 138M units (10.5 years of system availability).
360 (6.5 years) + PS3 (5.5 years) ~ 132M units (12 years of system availability).
For the current gen, they'll finally finish ahead of the previous gen in total units by the time 720/PS4 get released, but the generation will be more than 2 full years longer (43% longer than previous gen based on 15 years of combined system availability) to finish with a bit more than the same number of units. That's not really similar if you have to add nearly 50% more time on the market to finally surpass the same goal (and I don't think either the PS3 or 360 (even combined) will sell as well as the PS2 did after their successors are on the market - but that's just speculation at this point).
Except that a handheld has been the top-selling system every year for the better part of a decade now! When does a niche item routinely outsell the mainstream item? That goes against the whole point of being labelled niche in the first place!
Unless you are simply referring to the entire gaming industry as a niche market. Because no home console has been the best selling system any year since the PS2 way back when. And it's not changing this year either.
I agree
Its like app clone, They had to make a team just for that game I bet no others wanted to touch it I know I wouldn't its just toxic. It's not something I'm used to from Sony
Back on topic it be be nice to know what coming at E3 we saw creed and a logo of one of the FPS but not many handhold games that work well, handhold game you cant just do the same games
It's overall shit support from western devs. I really want some good western titles (RPGs etc) on 3DS. Mine's gathering dust.
demigod
Member
Anyone able to get a hold of Kaz? Tell him to hire me, i'll straighten these shitf*cks at SCEJ/SCEA up! It's ridiculous that it takes ages for Sony to accomplish anything nowadays. It's pretty sad when hackers are quicker than Sony employees at getting things done. Sony employees probably work 30mins a day out of 8 hours and call it a day.
You would think that Sony would pull their heads out of their ass after being in the red this generation but nope, still stuck up there. I guess it doesn't really matter to them as long as they are being paid even if their company tanks.
You would think that Sony would pull their heads out of their ass after being in the red this generation but nope, still stuck up there. I guess it doesn't really matter to them as long as they are being paid even if their company tanks.
shinra-bansho
Member
If the market had/has sustainably expanded then handhelds should be able to match the DS/PSP era. If sales return to GB era levels (which they're currently in the realm of) then presumably something's happened to that audience.
Removing Nintendo consoles from the picture results in annual console sales looking something like this:
You seem to think I'm referring to handhelds as niche products relative to home consoles. I'm not.
Rather I'm saying they're returning to products that are servicing a particular niche market - i.e. children and enthusiast gamers. And the same may happen to home consoles, if the expanded audience doesn't return for another round next gen.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
I think Sony's strategy of advertising only through word of mouth or telepathy might still pay off
I think you'll be waiting a while if you're expecting western devs to support a handheld well, they're too busy with iOS and facebook games at the moment.
Remember when it launched and quite a few people seemed to think thats what would pay off. They seemed to think people would see a vita and not be able to resist.
I would say many people would of seen it and thought its just another PSP.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Makes you wonder why the PSP Go ever got past the conceptual stage.
Yeah - they moved on to other stuff - ha ha... And if things revert back to a historically predominantly one-handheld marketplace - then a big part of the contraction will just be from the PSP anomaly being removed.
You have to realize just how much bigger the DS/PSP market was than any previous handheld market though. It wasn't a case of nice, steady growth from one gen to the next. It was a massive, earthquake-rendering explosion in total numbers. Those kinds of explosive booms have a funny tendency of then falling back to earth somewhat.
There's nothing wrong with the graph, but it's not really the comparison that I would use. It keeps the previous systems in the totals after the successor has been released. Anyone buying a previous-gen system after the successor is on the market is a completely different market segment from those who are buying the current relevant system. Might as well just throw the Nintendo systems back into the graph at that point, because very different market segments are being lumped in together. Cool graph, though!
So in effect, you are saying that the gaming industry itself is a niche market. And honestly, I'm okay with that viewpoint, if that's where you're coming from. It seemed to me that you were singling out handhelds, and then referring to them as niche products relative to home consoles - which is where the dispute came from. But that's not what you were saying after all!
Throwaway123456789
Member
I wouldn't keep my hopes up for a strong Vita presence at GamesCom.
ThisWreckage
Banned
The Vita will have a much stronger presence at GamesCon and TGS than it did at E3. The only it won't is if it is completely nonexistent at either of those events.
Metallix87
Member
Not really. I think the PSP Go was a great idea. It was their pricing strategy and marketing strategy for the device, as well as the state of PSP support on PSN, that led to it being a total disaster.
funny thing is - you could replace "PSP Go" with "PS Vita" above, and you'd see a striking similarity to today and the Vita
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
It was marketed as a portable gaming machine.
There seems to be a bit of discourse about why Sony isn't doing anything to fix the problem. Well, I have said it before and I will say it again: why should they? 3rd-parties have carried every launch they've ever had, so why would they think differently this time?
Figured it was easier to copy-paste this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40539079&postcount=12138
Figured it was easier to copy-paste this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40539079&postcount=12138
shinra-bansho
Member
I don't really disagree about the PSP - I think the PSP market is essentially consolidating into the 3DS.
But I'd be interested to see a demographic graph of the 3DS userbase compared to the NDS like this:
Curious to see whether they're retaining the mid-20s to mid-40s females as a significant portion of sales.
Well here's an all-inclusive home console graph just for reference, with the Wii mountain sitting atop.
Although you're right the home console market may also be contracting when late-adopters aren't considered I guess.
Yep. Or that it's returning to being one.
michaelius
Banned
Vita launched with Uncharted (3rd strongest IP Sony has) 2 lower tier IPs Sony has - HSG, Wipeout and 2 completly new IPs in form of Little Deviants and Reality fighters.
In next months they followed with Unit 13, Resistance and Gravity Daze.
And they will release also Sly , Smash clone and LBP all in first year on market.
In next months they followed with Unit 13, Resistance and Gravity Daze.
And they will release also Sly , Smash clone and LBP all in first year on market.
Metallix87
Member
That just shows that Nintendo didn't know what they were doing with regards to the device. This isn't really surprising.
I compare it to how Nintendo handled the DSi, actually. DSi is more powerful than the standard DS, has exclusive games, and a bunch of additional functionality. In many respects, then, it should be seen as the successor to the DS, much like the Game Boy Color was to the Game Boy. Of course, Nintendo decides to market it as just a simple revision to the DS, and fails to get developers on board to utilize the DSi's added strengths, as well as failing to get prominent devs to support the DSiWare service.