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[Davidion]

Typical bigoted bollocks rambling from a mad, increasingly irrelevant old man.

If only he was so irrelevant.

 

[Dascu]

Wouldn't the "nothing God has created is impure" lesson also void the prohibition on homosexuality?

Isn't this continued insistence on its abominable nature in flagrant violation of that commandment from God?

Not if you consider homosexuality a choice. Then it's not "god" 's fault or creation.

 

[jon bones]

bunch of old white dudes hate on gays

shameful that people still respect this guy

 

[Dead Man]

It's a stupidly complex and (somewhat unfortunately) emotive subject matter but I come from the opposite direction.

What surprises me is some (not all) gay people I've spoken to some utterly offended by the notion that it might not be genetic but more psychological & environment based. As though the idea that these attractions that they feel may be based on early psycho-social development and/or a choice that feels natural to them as being appalling. As though such a root cause makes them suddenly feel ashamed of who they are. I find it very difficult to objectively discuss the subject with some gay people because brings a lot of personal emotional baggage (unsurprisingly).

I'm ready to be proven wrong on the issue mind you.

That suggestion is often used with the 'it's a choice' argument which is why it is distasteful to some people. Even if it is psychological, that does not mean there is choice, and ultimately the structure of the brain is determined by genetics and environmental factors, so trying to separate strictly 'psychological' causes is fraught with pitfalls.

 

[Veidt]

IMO, I always find the "mother's womb" theory about the origin of homosexuality quite convincing. I don't know how strong it's considered in scientific circles, though.

Never heard of this. What does it imply?

 

[gerg]

Never heard of this. What does it imply?

This article talks about it. There was also a 60 minute program about it, which (iirc) focused on how one sibling in a pair of twins (who thus share the same genetic code) can display a different gender identity (I'm afraid I can't remember the correct term) whereas the other does not.

I think the implication might be that there's an evolutionary basis to homosexuality, which is why the matter is controversial.

Edit: To summarise the theory, I think the suggestion is that homosexuality is caused by hormones released in the womb before a child's birth. Apparently, repeatedly having male children increases the likelihood of these hormones being released, and thus of a child being gay. The trend's only been found in right-handed children, though, which may also place doubt on it.

Edit2: Here are two Wikipedia pages on fraternal birth order and sexual orientation and prenatal hormones and sexual orientation.

 

[JoeBoy101]

This takes it beyond homophobia into blatant sexism.

..but what else do you expect from an organization that claims to be founded by Paul, the biblical Steve Jobs to Steve "Jesus" Wozniak.

Trying to spark an argument on different grounds?

 

[DECK'ARD]

IMO, I always find the "mother's womb" theory about the origin of homosexuality quite convincing. I don't know how strong it's considered in scientific circles, though.



You need to be careful with your semantics. "Environment" is such a broad term that doesn't clarify that the environment in question is the prenatal environment of the womb.

Hormone levels in the womb seems to make the most sense to me.

We are biological, not machines, so if levels fluctuate at different times of the pregnancy you could end up with all sorts of combinations of masculine/feminine, gay/straight/transsexual etc.

 

[MetatronM]

Not if you consider homosexuality a choice. Then it's not "god" 's fault or creation.

But that Roman wasn't born a centurion. For that matter, just because he was born a gentile does not mean he has to stay so. He made the choice not to believe in the one God of the Jews. He chose that path in life, not just a gentile but a clear enemy of the Jewish people. Yet God still says he should be accepted, despite that choice.

Way I see it, the issue of "choice" is completely irrelevant here.

 

[squidhands]

Must mean he's gay. His public denial is getting worse and worse. That seems to be the pattern with these guys.

I think I would choke to death on my own laughter if that came to be the case.

 

[J-Rod]

If all homosexuals are going to hell, then all people are, pope included.

 

[Replicant]

What surprises me is some (not all) gay people I've spoken to some utterly offended by the notion that it might not be genetic but more psychological & environment based. As though the idea that these attractions that they feel may be based on early psycho-social development and/or a choice that feels natural to them as being appalling. As though such a root cause makes them suddenly feel ashamed of who they are. I find it very difficult to objectively discuss the subject with some gay people because brings a lot of personal emotional baggage (unsurprisingly).

Anecdotal evidence, of course, but my attraction towards same sex started to occur as early as kindergarten. I remember how much I wanted my male friend to *always* stay with me, live together in my house, etc. Of course back then I didn't know that these were probably homoerotic feelings I had for my friend. I mean, how could I? I didn't understand the concept of sexuality back then but my feelings, the feeling of a little boy, was sure that there's no one else that I wanted to be with more than this friend. You can argue that's just an intense attachment I felt towards a friend but I was also indifferent to females throughout high school and college. I also remember that when it comes to watching cartoons as a kid, it's always the male characters that kept my interest.

 

[Kozak]

I'm not against gays but I do agree that you aren't born gay. You aren't born into a sexuality.

 

[Door2Dawn]

I'm not against gays but I do agree that you aren't born gay. You aren't born into a sexuality.

oh jeez

 

[Dead Man]

I'm not against gays but I do agree that you aren't born gay. You aren't born into a sexuality.

No fucking words.

 

[Shanadeus]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole discussion of whether or not homosexuality is a choice, is a moot point. The gender of the person you want to have sex with or marry isn't at all important to me, I don't see any reason to make up arbitrary distinctions between people having sex with members of the same gender; people having sex with members of the opposite gender or anyone sometimes having sex with people of this and that gender.

 

[Tenks]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole discussion of whether or not homosexuality is a choice, is a moot point. The gender of the person you want to have sex with or marry isn't at all important to me, I don't see any reason to make up arbitrary distinctions between people having sex with members of the same gender; people having sex with members of the opposite gender or anyone sometimes having sex with people of this and that gender.

I wasn't implying it's a big deal or one I even really care about. I'm just saying I like to have hard, factual evidence to back up my opinions. I rarely form opinions on blind faith and lack of understanding.

 

[Zeppu]

Well he's right. Homosexuals will not go to heaven.

Spoiler

cos there's no heaven amirite?

 

[neorej]

I always consider the anti-gay-stand by the church mere hollow words. If they WERE really that anti-gay, the Pope would've acted harder against the gay pedophiles that have popped up over the years within his own ranks.

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm not against gays but I do agree that you aren't born gay. You aren't born into a sexuality.

When did you choose to be straight?

 

[Tenks]

I always consider the anti-gay-stand by the church mere hollow words. If they WERE really that anti-gay, the Pope would've acted harder against the gay pedophiles that have popped up over the years within his own ranks.

That's more the fact that the highest level of the church is completely corrupt and immoral. Everything that Christianity should stand for is completely shaded over by the few people who wish to seek it as a devise for their own power. Jesus was a great, compassionate, accepting and kind man. These are not the words anyone would choose for the pope.

 

[Giard]

Couldn't there be a middle ground? Like, you weren't born gay, but it wasn't your choice either. You could be influenced by who/where/when/how you were raised, exterior stimuli...

EDIT: removed brother thing

 

[selig]

It´s the catholic church, for Christ´s sake. Of course, they´re anti-gay. What else should they be? The church is all about man and woman living together, having kids, living an obedient life to the rules of God.
Accepting homosexuals would be as good as canceling the whole church-thing. And im not religious or anything, just understanding that these are essential topics that the church simply cannot change.

But I see no problem: Stop being religious, live your own life. I never understood why homosexuals wanted to marry in church, when they know that the church is against their sexuality. When some club tells me "you´re an asshole", I´m not going to join them.

When did you choose to be straight?

When his, yours, and mine parents bought us blue clothing, while pink clothing for their daughters.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Couldn't there be a middle ground? Like, you weren't born gay, but it wasn't your choice either. You could be influenced by who/where/when/how you were raised, exterior stimuli...
Kinda goes in line with the "people with older brothers have a higher chance of being gay" posted above.

The older brother thing is to do with hormone levels in the mother/womb being different after the birth of the first son.

 

[HunkyDory]

It's a stupidly complex and (somewhat unfortunately) emotive subject matter but I come from the opposite direction.

What surprises me is some (not all) gay people I've spoken to some utterly offended by the notion that it might not be genetic but more psychological & environment based. As though the idea that these attractions that they feel may be based on early psycho-social development and/or a choice that feels natural to them as being appalling. As though such a root cause makes them suddenly feel ashamed of who they are. I find it very difficult to objectively discuss the subject with some gay people because brings a lot of personal emotional baggage (unsurprisingly).

I'm ready to be proven wrong on the issue mind you.

I've had similar reactions from people when I object to the idea that people are 'born' gay.

I'm open to the idea that there are psycho-social factors that influence later sexual behaviours and preferences, although psychologists have thus far failed to come up with any workable proposals for what these might be.

Most of the literature to this effect has come from psychoanalytic theorists who haven't progressed much beyond Alder's inferiority complex, and Freud's Weak Father idea. Briefly, without a strong father figure to provoke a young boy's castration anxiety there is nothing stopping from acting on his Oedipul impulses - the mother responds, and eventually, the child takes himself to be his own sex-object. I'm hazy on the dynamics - something to do with narcissism I'm sure.

He had nothing to say about lesbians - modern science is often mute here as well funnily enough - but the idea still has a lot of clout amongst the public, even if they aren't aware of its origins.

So, when people are discussing psycho-social factors, they are more often than not going out on a limb -such as the nutty ideas like homosexuality is, in any way, a choice.

You've also got to consider the historical impact that these ideas have had. Psychiatry has many black spots against it, with one of the lesser discussed being the attempts to 'cure' homosexuality. It wasn't so long ago that we had gay men (again, gay men seemed to be more in need of treatment than women for some reason) being strapped to beds and administered nausea-inducing drugs in the wake of positive reinforcement.

Lou Reed fans can go listen to Kill Your Sons for an account of kind of treatment.

You also had institutionalised heterosexism from the DSM, which held that homosexuality was a psychiatric disorder that was worthy of treatment.

Interesting side note - the loudest opponents to having homosexuality removed from the DSM was the American Psychoanalytic Association, even though Freud was insistent that homosexuality couldn't be considered a neurosis, and went as far as to refuse potential clients who would bring their sons to him for analysis. Even Alfred Adler renounced his earlier position on homosexuality.

There are good reasons for gay people to be so insistent that people only speak from the perspective of supported science - anything else can be a slippery slope.

I guess that the Pope is a living example of that... and with that I'm back on topic! :lol

 

[Giard]

The older brother thing is to do with hormone levels in the mother/womb being different after the birth of the first son.

Thanks, noted. Should have read the article.

But my point still stands (without the brother thing :lol).
I believe the way you are raised determines who you are at the end.

 

[Dead Man]

Thanks, noted. Should have read the article.

But my point still stands (without the brother thing :lol).
I believe the way you are raised determines who you are at the end.

So.... my dad raised me to be non hetero? :lol Do you realise you just said "That science is nice and all, but I believe something different"?

 

[Tenks]

Thanks, noted. Should have read the article.

But my point still stands (without the brother thing :lol).
I believe the way you are raised determines who you are at the end.

Lets take the above anecdotal evidence from the gay guy above. You're saying that he subconsciously, in kindergarten, was attracted to me males before he even fully understood what sexuality is because of his upbringing? Not buying it.

 

[Shanadeus]

When his, yours, and mine parents bought us blue clothing, while pink clothing for their daughters.

In Western culture, the practice of assigning pink to an individual gender began in the 1920s. From then until the 1940s, pink was considered appropriate for boys because being related to red it was the more masculine and decided color, while blue was considered appropriate for girls because it was the more delicate and dainty color, or related to the Virgin Mary.

So if you were born sometime between 1920-40 you'd have a different sexuality?

 

[HunkyDory]

No fucking words.

I don't believe that people are 'born gay' either, to the extent that I don't believe that any infant is capable of possessing a sexual preference of any sort.

The ground-work for the later emergence of homosexuality might be present by birth, but that's entirely different to being born with a sexual identity.

 

[Mael]

bunch of old white dudes hate on gays

shameful that people still respect this guy

because you think only white people have a thing against gays :lol :lol ?

So.... my dad raised me to be non hetero? :lol Do you realise you just said "That science is nice and all, but I believe something different"?

Hey that's okay he's not spoking from a religious point of view :lol

 

[gofreak]

But I see no problem: Stop being religious, live your own life. I never understood why homosexuals wanted to marry in church, when they know that the church is against their sexuality.

Gay people don't have a problem with the church because they can't marry in the church. I don't think (m)any give a flying f- about that.

They've a problem when leadership in a big group - any such group - starts preaching bullshit and bile about gay people and homosexuality. It can have lots of knock-on effects in lots of ways.

 

[Tworak]

I believe the way you are raised determines who you are at the end.

I played with barbies when I was a kid. am I on the brink of total gayness because of that?

 

[Tenks]

I played with barbies when I was a kid. am I on the brink of total gayness because of that?

I'd be careful. If you do one or two more unmanly things you may turn into one of those queerosexuals.

 

[Mael]

I played with barbies when I was a kid. am I on the brink of total gayness because of that?

That's because you viewed yourself with many hot chicks that's totally not gay unlike the guys with their war fantasies only playing with their sweaty masculine dolls :lol

anyone who gets the references get a virtual space cookie

 

[Kozak]

When did you choose to be straight?

Honestly? Probably around 9 or 10? Before that I wouldn't touch a girl, they were revolting. I preferred to hang around guys. The only girl I accepted as being cool was my sister.

The media, family, friends and even video games presented boys being attracted to girls and so I followed suit and here I am today, oggling over females I find attractive.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Thanks, noted. Should have read the article.

But my point still stands (without the brother thing :lol).
I believe the way you are raised determines who you are at the end.

Sexuality is hardwired. The brain's reaction to someone you are attracted to is instantaneous, and the pathways used don't even go through the normal thinking process. It's biological.

Male/female, masculine/feminine, gay/straight, oestrogen/testosterone. It's all 2 opposite things acting against each other.

Testosterone governs the development in the womb, as we are biological it makes sense that this process is not fed absolutely perfectly and there could be variations in the hormone levels over a 9 month period for many reasons. Especially the medical condition of the mother.

The brain is sexed before the body, sudden hormone changes would explain transsexuals.

Ratio of index finger to ring finger is level of testosterone. Most women have even length, most men have longer ring finger. More gay men have even length than straight men. More lesbians have longer.

You can end up with any combination of anything, there are feminine straight men for instance and very masculine gay men. But there is an overlap, and if there are physiological differences you can't have been 'raised' a sexuality.

 

[Dead Man]

Honestly? Probably around 9 or 10? Before that I wouldn't touch a girl, they were revolting. I preferred to hang around guys. The only girl I accepted as being cool was my sister.

The media, family, friends and even video games presented boys being attracted to girls and so I followed suit and here I am today, oggling over females I find attractive.

:lol

 

[GasProblem]

I find it funny some non-gays think that being homosexual is a choice or has something to do with how you're being raised, but if you ask gay people they all say they were born with it and it wasn't a 'choice' and didn't have a fuck to do with how they were raised.

 

[Mael]

Honestly? Probably around 9 or 10? Before that I wouldn't touch a girl, they were revolting. I preferred to hang around guys. The only girl I accepted as being cool was my sister.

The media, family, friends and even video games presented boys being attracted to girls and so I followed suit and here I am today, oggling over females I find attractive.

Does that mean you shouldn't let a child entirely raised watching Pokemon with your pets?

seriously this topic is hillarious sometimes :lol

 

[Cindres]

Eating shellfish is a sin as well. Just as bad as being gay, apparently. Funny how they never make any speeches about that, huh?

You know who won't go to heaven? People who protect and help pedophiles who rape and molest young kids. This Pope is a vile cunt and if there is a hell, he will be in it.

Nailed it. Fuck the pope man.

 

[GSG Flash]

I can't see homosexuality being a choice at all

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm

The way I see it, it's just another one of nature's ways to control the population and the heterosexual male to heterosexual female ratio.

 

[Giard]

Lets take the above anecdotal evidence from the gay guy above. You're saying that he subconsciously, in kindergarten, was attracted to me males before he even fully understood what sexuality is because of his upbringing? Not buying it.

No. BTW, I'm just throwing an idea in the air here.

What I'm saying is that your personality, your hobbies, interests etc may be determined by your childhood. As in, your body language is actually your parents' that you've subconsciously embraced as your own, your hobbies and interests are determined by the first toys you got, or by observing what your parents were doing, your personnality and attitude towards the world is determined by your first friends, your first teachers, other family..

There's a guy in psychology (can't remember the name) who claimed that he could get any baby to do whatever job he would like to. For example, he would claim that this baby will become a fireman when he's older.

Would it be impossible for sexuality to be the same way? Influenced by exterior stimuli?
Retarded example: Child is raised in a town where there's 90% men and 10% women, and all women are ugly. Child might have more chances of being homosexual. Also, if he's raised by a homosexual couple, I could see the same thing happening.

added

Sexuality is hardwired. The brain's reaction to someone you are attracted to is instantaneous, and the pathways used don't even go through the normal thinking process. It's biological.

Male/female, masculine/feminine, gay/straight, oestrogen/testosterone. It's all 2 opposite things acting against each other.

Testosterone governs the development in the womb, as we are biological it makes sense that this process is not fed absolutely perfectly and there could be variations in the hormone levels over a 9 month period for many reasons. Especially the medical condition of the mother.

The brain is sexed before the body, sudden hormone changes would explain transsexuals.

Ratio of index finger to ring finger is level of testosterone. Most women have even length, most men have longer ring finger. More gay men have even length than straight men. More lesbians have longer.

You can end up with any combination of anything, there are feminine straight men for instance and very masculine gay men. But there is an overlap, and if there are physiological differences you can't have been 'raised' a sexuality.

Isn't the body still growing during childhood? Couldn't it be possible that this happens during that time?

Your explanation makes a lot of sense though, where did you learn that? I'm only emitting a theory.

useless knowledge: I have even ring and index fingers, I'm straight, but I have womanly hands :lol

 

[Slavik81]

When did you choose to be straight?

Your assumption that because a trait is non-genetic that it must be a choice is flawed.

Were you genetically pre-disposed to enjoy watching The Dark Knight? Or was your enjoyment of the movie a choice? The answer to both those questions is, of course, 'no'.

 

[xelios]

But I see no problem: Stop being religious, live your own life. I never understood why homosexuals wanted to marry in church, when they know that the church is against their sexuality. When some club tells me "you´re an asshole", I´m not going to join them.

Er, not sure that most homosexuals care about marrying in a church. The fight is for a set of rights conferred by the government and equality OUTSIDE the church. Until God starts handing out the tax breaks I don't think anyone cares whether the actual marriage takes place in a church or a courthouse (hell, can't think of one tangible benefit of marriage conferred by God or a church, help me out here).

I'm not fooled by the "religious duty" excuse. Religious groups have fought time and again against any form of legal recognition of homosexual couples, even when it's not called marriage and has nothing to do with their religion. It's simple bigotry. I guess it feels good to see people you hate be treated as lesser human beings, dunno.

 

[Dead Man]

No. BTW, I'm just throwing an idea in the air here.

What I'm saying is that your personality, your hobbies, interests etc may be determined by your childhood. As in, your body language is actually your parents' that you've subconsciously embraced as your own, your hobbies and interests are determined by the first toys you got, or by observing what your parents were doing, your personnality and attitude towards the world is determined by your first friends, your first teachers, other family..

There's a guy in psychology (can't remember the name) who claimed that he could get any baby to do whatever job he would like to. For example, he would claim that this baby will become a fireman when he's older.

Would it be impossible for sexuality to be the same way? Influenced by exterior stimuli?
Retarded example: Child is raised in a town where there's 90% men and 10% women, and all women are ugly. Child might have more chances of being homosexual. Also, if he's raised by a homosexual couple, I could see the same thing happening.

I'll let someone else smarter and more patient than me deal with this, I'll just laugh to myself and hope you never get to make public policy.

 

[Kozak]

Does that mean you shouldn't let a child entirely raised watching Pokemon with your pets?

seriously this topic is hillarious sometimes :lol

I watched Pokemon. Pokemon is pretty big on the male-female attraction thing you know. Every episode has Brock chasing some chick.

 

[Roquentin]

From the Transgaf thread: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3767337480016853964#. About transgender person, but I think still relevant to the discussion.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Isn't it true that everyone has at least one gay experience in their lifetime?

 

[norinrad]

Its good to be out of touch with reality. Has any of his servants told him about the church? :lol