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[flintstryker]

Now I was never a Final Fantasy 7 super fan like some people here and I didn't particularly want it to be remade but when it was announced I kinda assumed they were going to use high quality pre-rendered backgrounds to stay faithful to the original game design and my interest immediately took a hit when I realized it wasn't.

Now to be clear I don't have any problem with fully rendered 3D environments my major issue is that is most games like these the amount of meaningful interactions you have with the environment is laughably basic and as of such the background is just there to look pretty and I think for such a purpose pre-rendered back drops would more than fulfill that pretty qouta.

So my question to you GAF do you think the modern AAA game industry have a place for pre-rendered backgrounds and are there any modern examples of what I am asking about? Images welcomed.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I don't think most would see a point to it nowadays because if you're making models that the consoles/PC can render anyway, there's not much point stripping that away just to save some space while losing access to the ability to move the camera. There's a reason why so many games ditched pre-rendered backgrounds even when they still used fixed cameras.

 

[Inuhanyou]

That's not what modern SE, or the modern bigger industry cares about.

It still has a place, but it has far diminished. Its like everyone going to 3D fighting game models from 2D sprites.

In general, they aren't 'remaking' FF7 to be similar to the original game. They are making a modern game based on FF7.

Most games are about 3D perspectives, and moving the camera around, and fixed camera 2D games is not anywhere near that.


For the most part, 2D illustrations in RPG's in the 90s was specifically a hold over from the pixel backrounds of the older RPG era where 3D was not even possible. For FF, it wasn't possible to make a game they wanted to make in full 3D due to technological constraints. Now it is.

 

[lazygecko]

Pillars of Eternity is an example of a modern implementation of pre-rendered backgrounds with high production values. There's a lot of things going on under the hood to allow for things like advanced lighting effects.

 

[flintstryker]

I don't think most would see a point to it nowadays because if you're making models that the consoles/PC can render anyway, there's not much point stripping that away just to save some space while losing access to the ability to move the camera. There's a reason why so many games ditched pre-rendered backgrounds even when they still used fixed cameras.

I agree that for some games camera control is definitely essential but I think there's a space in the market for games without that level of control in the modern market as well. I like how in OOT there where some areas with prerendered background mixed with fully 3D environments I think something like that could work in today's game industry as well.

 

[injurai]

I feel like they don't have much of a place in the AAA market. Just because those types of games aren't as universally appealing to people outside a particular niche. The explosion of new gaming paradigms only pushes them further into a niche. But Pillars of Eternity, and Torment Tides of Numenera show it can still be done in a modern way. Just I don't see one of these titles being a AAA budget when their sales aren't that high.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not sure if pre-rendered backgrounds will ever find a place in games again. Actually we might see the opposite. Meaning pre-rendered effects superimposed on a real time game.
The new tomb Raider did that for example with its avalanche effect.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I agree that for some games camera control is definitely essential but I think there's a space in the market for games without that level of control in the modern market as well. I like how in OOT there where some areas with prerendered background mixed with fully 3D environments I think something like that could work in today's game industry as well.

I'd be all for more games doing it as I think variety, in everything from experience to visuals, is incredibly good for the industry, and I do think you could get some absolutely gorgeous vistas now but I see why people aren't rushing to do it anymore.

 

[-griffy-]

Now to be clear I don't have any problem with fully rendered 3D environments my major issue is that is most games like these the amount of meaningful interactions you have with the environment is laughably basic and as of such the background is just there to look pretty and I think for such a purpose pre-rendered back drops would more than fulfill that pretty qouta.

This in particular is kind of funny to me, since the whole reason pre-rendered backgrounds existed is because it was the only way to make super pretty backgrounds when the real-time technology was so limited, and because they were pre-rendered it meant that any interaction with them was inherently limited. Obviously more could be done with today's technology as far as pre-rendered backgrounds combined with real-time assets, but in most cases fully real-time gets the job done in a way a pre-rendered background never could.

 

[Krabboss]

AAA games? No.

I think people are not giving enough credit to the aesthetic FF7 built around its pre-rendered backgrounds and static camera, though. A pre-rendered background with a static camera allows the director to set up a scene exactly how they want it. You don't get a shot like this with a behind the shoulder third person camera.

There's definitely a place for them still and like somebody else said they were used in Pillars of Eternity. It's just not really something you'll see in a AAA game because it wouldn't be graphically impressive in the traditional sense.

 

[KatamariOnTheRocks]

I think using it with today's tech could achieve a really interesting art style.

It may not be necessary to do so with how strong current hardware is, but I could see how a game built from the ground up with that aesthetic in mind could look pretty cool.

 

[-griffy-]

AAA games? No.

I think people are not giving enough credit to the aesthetic FF7 built around its pre-rendered backgrounds and static camera, though. A pre-rendered background with a static camera allows the director to set up a scene exactly how they want it. You don't get a shot like this with a behind the shoulder third person camera.

There's definitely a place for them still and like somebody else said they were used in Pillars of Eternity. It's just not really something you'll see in a AAA game because it wouldn't be graphically impressive in the traditional sense.

That isn't inherently a benefit because the background is pre-rendered though, but because the camera is static. The same argument for composition could be made for real-time backgrounds with specific camera angles, such as God of War or Until Dawn.

 

[Oppo]

meh. skyboxes are still a thing. it will look so much better, just in resolution alone.

 

[Krabboss]

That isn't inherently a benefit because the background is pre-rendered though, but because the camera is static. The same argument for composition could be made for real-time backgrounds with specific camera angles, such as God of War or Until Dawn.

Certainly, but there is still a different style to a pre-rendered background than a fully rendered 3D environment.

 

[RedSwirl]

Pre-rendered backgrounds, which necessitate fixed camera angles, are a detriment to any 3D game with action-based combat, and action-based combat is what big-budget console games these days are all about. Pre-rendered backgrounds really make the most sense for adventure games or games with turn-based combat.

If the FF7 remake was still turn-based, I think pre-rendered backgrounds would be fine. We've already seen an example of this in Pillars of Eternity. A recent adventure game example might be the Gabriel Knight remake.

 

[The Technomancer]

Not for AAA games, but I would kill for a new first person adventure with the pre-rendered quality and aesthetic creativity of the Myst games

God I just want more first person adventure games in general.

Spoiler

The Witness can't arrive soon enough

 

[Arulan]

Pillars of Eternity is an example of a modern implementation of pre-rendered backgrounds with high production values. There's a lot of things going on under the hood to allow for things like advanced lighting effects.

It really is. Here is a screenshot taken from my Steam uploads. There is some compression, and fog of war is enabled, but you get the point.

 

[muteki]

I don't think many people could appreciate a fixed or simple pan camera view, no matter how detailed the pre-rendered environment is.

 

[supernormal]

I'm all for it. I still don't think we've reached the level of fidelity of stuff like REmake or RE0 in real-time graphics. At least not consistently. It allowed those games to blow everything else out of the water at the time and still not look dated to 2 generations later. I don't know which route they're going with for the REmake2 but I want to see what a 2016 implementation of that technique would look like.

 

[Mac the KNife]

but when it was announced I kinda assumed they were going to use high quality pre-rendered backgrounds to stay faithful to the original game design.

I'm not a student of game design, but it seems to me that SquareEnix would have had a much easier and less expensive time going the route of Capcom's REmake than transitioning the often visually-dense world of FFVII to a fully rendered 3D world.

My expectations were in line with yours, OP, a visually improved version of Final Fantasy VII with the type of high-resolution pre-rendered backgrounds that were created (then downsized) for Final Fantasy IX and add things like environmental lighting effects to characters as REmake did.

To see SquareEnix essentially start from scratch is pretty confusing.

 

[papo]

At least on FFVII case they are not making an uprezed version of the original game, but a whole new package. So pre-rendered background like in the old game would not work.

It could have though and they could have saved time and effort on it, but I guess we are getting a whole other beast of a game if they ever finish it.

 

[Sectorseven]

What are the advantages of a pre-rendered background these days? I would think a real time 3D environment with a fixed camera could look just as good.

 

[georly]

What are the advantages of a pre-rendered background these days? I would think a real time 3D environment with a fixed camera could look just as good.

Less of a hit on performance, I presume. Easier to load an image than it is to load a crap ton of polygons and textures.

 

[flintstryker]

It really is. Here is a screenshot taken from my Steam uploads. There is some compression, and fog of war is enabled, but you get the point.

That's pretty freaking beautiful, I'm gonna have to check this out sometime

 

[Dusk Golem]

I think pre-rendered can have a certain quality/effects to it that don't translate into full 3D quite yet still.

Resident Evil Zero HD Remaster has had me thinking about this recently. Despite the game being 13-14 years old, it still stands up pretty well despite the backgrounds being re-exported at higher resolutions from the originals and only touched up some.

Not shown in these screens are some of the video and special effects the game has, which it uses quite a bit. Like in the bottom screen there's quite a bit of objects moving around as its set on a train, and the fire lighting makes the whole room flicker, as well as rain on the windows.

There's certain details/effects which don't translate as well in full 3D, or at least I haven't seen translate as well. And keep in mind, these examples are all just touched up backgrounds from a game made 13-14 years ago, be interesting to see a modern game of the budget and scale made with pre-rendered backgrounds.

 

[flintstryker]

I think pre-rendered can have a certain quality/effects to it that don't translate into full 3D quite yet still.

Resident Evil Zero HD Remaster has had me thinking about this recently. Despite the game being 13-14 years old, it still stands up pretty well despite the backgrounds being re-exported at higher resolutions from the originals and only touched up some.

Not shown in these screens are some of the video and special effects the game has, which it uses quite a bit.

There's certain details/effects which don't translate as well in full 3D, or at least I haven't seen translate as well. And keep in mind, these examples are all just touched up backgrounds from a game made 13-14 years ago, be interesting to see a modern game of the budget and scale made with pre-rendered backgrounds.

That's essentially what I was expecting this FF7 to be, A problem I have with the game industry as a whole is that its so quick to abandon techniques that existed before rather than trying to expand on them as technology increases

 

[Dio]

That's essentially what I was expecting this FF7 to be, A problem I have with the game industry as a whole is that its so quick to abandon techniques that existed before rather than trying to expand on them as technology increases

One of the biggest drawbacks to pre-rendered backgrounds is the fact that they're essentially static images with a set resolution. Unless the assets/files are kept around and rerendered years later for a rerelease at higher resolution or something, they're going to be making that image specifically to be seen at, like 1080p - what happens years down the line when the same shit happens as the RE remasters where some of them are just run through, like, a filter and upscaled? 4k is on its way to gaming mainstream, should a 4k version be rendered just in case? No matter how much you blow up a true 3D screen, however, the objects themselves will be just as clear at a higher resolution, and the only thing that needs to be changed is textures at that point. Maybe polycount sometimes.

 

[FyreWulff]

It gets less useful as the real time graphics fidelity went up.

We're probably going to get to the point where games may have fixed candles but use super-rendering so they have the best of both worlds. I even prototyped this for a friend:

- Player goes through a door.

- Take a little bit of time to render the next room in high quality (about the length of standard Resident Evil load times)

- Take that final result and put it on the screen as the background.

This allowed new camera angles in the room to be requested on the fly and allows you to do free camera movement (the drop in room quality is hidden because people focus on the characters during a cutscene)

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Obviously, our budget is drastically lower than most of the games talked about here, but we've been using pre-rendered backgrounds in our RPGs for a while now (not tile based). Most of our maps are 1024 x 1024 images with a few different layers (base, foreground, shadow) and interactive elements on top. Much easier for us to make areas look nice with this method compared to using a traditional tile-based system (and we don't have the experience or money to do a full 3D game to the quality we'd want).

 

[Cleve]

One of the biggest drawbacks to pre-rendered backgrounds is the fact that they're essentially static images with a set resolution. Unless the assets/files are kept around and rerendered years later for a rerelease at higher resolution or something, they're going to be making that image specifically to be seen at, like 1080p - what happens years down the line when the same shit happens as the RE remasters where some of them are just run through, like, a filter and upscaled? 4k is on its way to gaming mainstream, should a 4k version be rendered just in case? No matter how much you blow up a true 3D screen, however, the objects themselves will be just as clear at a higher resolution, and the only thing that needs to be changed is textures at that point. Maybe polycount sometimes.

As far as the original assets go for some of this stuff, even if someone still has backups of them floating around a lot of them are also likely stuck in a format designed for a platform that no longer exists. Something as old as FF7 would also really need new assets for everything, even re-rendered with better effects at a higher resolution they still wouldn't hold up.

Creating new high-res pre-rendered backgrounds that would satisfy what people want from a new FF7 would take a ton of work and have new artists working in a format they may not be entirely comfortable with. Not to mention this style has a broader appeal in general.

 

[flintstryker]

One of the biggest drawbacks to pre-rendered backgrounds is the fact that they're essentially static images with a set resolution. Unless the assets/files are kept around and rerendered years later for a rerelease at higher resolution or something, they're going to be making that image specifically to be seen at, like 1080p - what happens years down the line when the same shit happens as the RE remasters where some of them are just run through, like, a filter and upscaled? 4k is on its way to gaming mainstream, should a 4k version be rendered just in case? No matter how much you blow up a true 3D screen, however, the objects themselves will be just as clear at a higher resolution, and the only thing that needs to be changed is textures at that point. Maybe polycount sometimes.

Yes? I mean I was on the impression that they were already rendered at higher resolution and downsized to fit the standard of the time of release.

Obviously, our budget is drastically lower than most of the games talked about here, but we've been using pre-rendered backgrounds in our RPGs for a while now (not tile based). Most of our maps are 1024 x 1024 images with a few different layers (base, foreground, shadow) and interactive elements on top. Much easier for us to make areas look nice with this method compared to using a traditional tile-based system (and we don't have the experience or money to do a full 3D game to the quality we'd want).

If you did would you completely abandon the current style of games you're making only exclusively make high quality 3D games?

 

[Spieler Eins]

Prerendered allows for interesting angles and variety in presentation, which will certainly be lost with an ordinary 3D environment. But even though I'd be interested in a modern equivalent of the REmake, I never expected FF7 to be that. In fact, I think the remake will not really replace the original, because it's just completely different this way (but even more so with the new battle systems and creepy pseudo-realistic characters of modern SE). It's basically a new game based on the same story the way it looks now.

Maybe RE2make does is right though, since a fixed camera is even more important to classic horror titles, while some over the shoulder shit would also completely demolish the original game.

 

[thefil]

I wish more games would use pre-rendered backgrounds. We might be able to get more decent oldschool RPGs then.