Would you read this
the same way you read this
Doesn't that all tie into Batman RIP anyway? If yes, then yes I would read them the same way.
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Probably the best Batman v Superman video essay I've come across
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
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Doesn't that all tie into Batman RIP anyway? If yes, then yes I would read them the same way.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Look at what objectively? It's a movie.
Objectively, it's a movie.
Subjectively, the shit that got added didn't fix anything for me. It just made the bullshit longer. The movie is subpar enough that whatever minimally improved coherence the plotting gains as a result of those scenes being reincorporated is then undone by the added length draining the minimal patience I had left.
BadAss2961
Member
Veelk pulled a TLDR? I missed that one.
MisterHero
Super Member
I like BvS but the idea of a Batman Superman movie R-Rated is pretty amazing...ly... something
piratepwnsninja
Member
I'd not read Chaw's review before, so thank you for posting it.
For context, I pulled a TLDR becaus I asked a very specific question about BvS and MoS both, and the user responded by dumping his entire review which went far beyond the question I had asked. I said I wasn't going to read it all because I asked for one thing, and he gave me a wall of text saying "Oh, it's in there, somewhere, go find it". As usual, Bleepey reforms that memory into something less accurate, but more convenient for his world view.
What's happening guys it's your boy Dalek wit you.
*insert filler*
Be sure to like and subscribe.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You're gonna have to photoshop the Brigadier there to open his mouth way wider for the thumbnail
Man do I really hate that stuff. Who falls for it.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
BadAss2961
Member
Veelk... Bro... You are the Michael Jordan of doing this.
The copy/paste and "go find it" part is something else though if that's the way it went down. lol
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
It gets worse on every loop.
1,284,908 subscribers 415,183,046 views
The reason I am the Michael Jordan of doing this is because I legitimately have a lot of stuff to say more often than not. To the best of my ability, I try to make sure that everything I write is something worth reading. I don't throw walls of texts at people just because. That's the difference. The guy threw a giant wall of text at me when the only relevant part of it was a small section in the middle. I don't see that as the same thing as what I do.
Monocle
Member
What in the shit?
Count Dookkake
Member
That's a four syllable question for any thoughts too big for little minds.
Madness my friend, madness.
lol, so much for a balanced opinion.
Bleepey, we found your kindred spirit!
BvS is shit but I'll not listen to a MCU fanboy tell that to me.
Discotheque
Banned
It's a 6-7/10 comic book blockbuster AT BEST. I don't get the outrage over such an opinion. I didn't say it was better than the dark knight or something.
Neither are great but I liked what BvS was doing much moreso than civil war. Although it certainly stumbled in some aspects and should have followed through on the script for sure. But the bombastic approach to a comic universe was cool to me. Plus I found the introduction to Batman/Alfred to be great. I'm already won over by them. Moreso than any of the other dcu movie characters we've seen so far or almost all of the mcu ones too to be honest.
More_Badass
Member
It never hurts to read/watch/etc.criticism of something you like.
1,284,908 subscribers 415,183,046 views
This loop gif is pissing me off.
Monocle
Member
kill me
1,284,908 subscribers 415,183,046 views
Gordon Shumway
Banned
lol..I just woke up to hit the head after too much drinking. I don't think I can sleep again for a while now. Forget BvS..this thread sucks!
Monocle
Member
kill me
1,284,908 subscribers 415,183,046 views
I liked most of the Batman stuff too. BvS could have been an OK Batman movie. Unfortunately it turned out to be a bloated messy unfocused film that splits its attention too many ways, has some questionable performances, and maybe worst of all, takes a weird angry Superman with one emotion and no charisma and pits him against Affleck's dour bone-breaking Batman in shockingly dull circumstances that hinge on Superman's inability to say two fucking sentences: "Some jerk kidnapped my mom to make us fight. Why don't we save her?"
Civil War might not be a top shelf Marvel film, but unlike BvS it is narratively coherent, well paced, consistently well acted, emotionally authentic, and it fully delivers on its main premise: the ideological conflict between Captain America and Iron Man that polarizes the Avengers by raising questions of accountibility for superheroes who leave a trail of collateral damage in their wake. Unlike BvS, its climax is a personal fight with emotional weight and thematic significancefar smarter and more engaging than "hit monster to save world."
Civil War is a better film than BvS because each of its elements is well made, appropriately modulated, and suitably integrated into a cohesive whole. Any honest comparison between the two movies must cast BvS in an unfavorable light. Contrasted with Civil War, its flaws are glaring.
In Civil War the way the characters (iron man and captain America) act fits in with their established characters in earlier media. In BvS neither batman or superman act as they had done previously. Why would the worlds greatest detective have such a narrow viewpoint on superman? Wouldn't he have investigated and found out that superman is not just a godlike dick?
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Last I remember in the old threads (and it doesn't seem like people are making that argument ITT), people weren't saying that all it did was add run-time. People pointed to the extra content to show how the story and its machinations ended up being ridiculously convoluted for something so simple when you deconstruct it. Take the Africa nonsense for instance, Lex Luthor goes through so many goddamn hoops and hurdles to set Superman up when the foundation is about as strong as wet paper. The other examples (ESPECIALLY humanizing Superman) is problematic because either the movie doesn't know if it wants to commit 100% to that idea or ends up contradicting itself quickly.
The problem I have with the bolded is that the character arc is so contrived and forced, that none of what you said is earned (it wasn't for me, maybe YMMV with others?). We don't really get a chance to see what humanity makes of Superman and protection aside from a few small scenes. Furthermore, you say that about Superman and the JL, and here we are, the Justice League is being created behind his back with not a care in the world about humanity's trust.
cartographer
Member
Why would you do this to us?
1,284,908 subscribers 415,183,046 views
Monocle
Member
JokerBurningMoneyPile.gif
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
I can't take anyone who says BVS is the worst Super Hero film ever made when Batman and Robin (1997) exist
I'm curious to know the date of birth of anyone who thinks this way
I'm curious to know the date of birth of anyone who thinks this way
I think it's odd that people are using the fact that the youtuber sees it as the worst comic book film to not watch the video. I don't agree with him, but to use that disagreement to not so much as listen to his case for why he thinks that is not exactly openminded. Are people just flat out openly and explicitly not willing to listen to an argument unless it's conclusion is predetermined to end in agreement with their own now?
broncobuster
Banned
God damn it
Batman and Robin is a piece of art worthy of the Louvre compared to BvS.
I've seen both in theatres.
The Driver
Member
Enthusiast YouTube movie reviews was a mistake.
If I met someone in real life who watched this stuff I might have to move.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Went through the first 43:24.
He makes a good number of fair criticisms. Some of his criticisms made me roll my eyes, however. I understand that he simply "didn't get it" for some things.
For yet other things I understand his type of film watcher and he explains what it is that he needed most from the film that he didn't get enough of: dialogue. Elongated exposition that removes all/most ambiguity, all/most grey, all/most questions. And for the mind that needs those things in order to enjoy what comes next, I can understand how and why BvS and MoS would have fallen well short of what's needed to enjoy the film.
I, however, am not as needy.
I enjoy films that don't answer all the questions immediately (or even at all). I enjoy deciphering intentions based on actions and body language. I enjoy deductive reasoning in the films that offer the opportunity. I do not agree that films need to be as dependent on exposition as Shakespeare plays because the medium provides a flexibility that stage performances do not. Unlike this critic, I did not have a problem with news pundits or the military representing humanity's reaction to Superman. I thought they all asked the essential questions that individual people would have been thinking about or asking about the nature of the Superman. I personally did not need a deep introspective into how Lex set up the Louis encounter early that they framed Superman with. I did not have a problem understanding why Lex was doing what he was doing, though this critic seemed frustrated about his own inability to figure it out. He seemed to not even understand why shattering the messiah image was so important to Lex, despite significant time being spent tackling the same subject (though not always in so many words). These are just a couple of examples, of course.
He is completely correct when he frustratedly points out that the film doesn't do a good job of explaining the reason behind such actions. You do have to offer some gimmies (that is ask less questions and just go "okay") here and there. His continued voicing of frustration about Superman not speaking seems to sort of miss the point of the character who is clearly still trying to find not only his way but his role, and that Lois is important because (a) he loves her and (b) she is the only person in his world currently that is holding his fragile mental state together. His safe place, if you will. It's not *toxic* for christ sake; it's a function of the circumstances and a statement of how much she matters at this point in his life. You shouldn't need a "buh buh why does he lover her so much tho?!!?" explanation, goddamnit. He loves her because he does. I know man a man who would fuck some shit up if something happened to their s/o. They just don't have Superman's power to do it. lol
There were several other things I noted along the way, but it's 3am and I'm quite frankly not all that interested in entertaining his frustration. But the last thing I want to mention is that his position on the opening of BvS is that it is some sort of acknowledgement that the ending of MoS was a mistake attempting to be patched up with BvS. This was not my impression. I found that the end of MoS offered real perspective of the power on display from a Superman still raw in his understanding of who he is. One that did not always do everything well, and the consequences that came with it. Thus for me, BvS simply picked up where MoS left off, where accountability enters that will further mold Clark into the man we all know with the S on his chest. Thus our perspectives (mine and this critic) become essentially polar opposites. For him, it's an apology; for me it's a doubling-down on the already good story arc. Yea, Superman unintentionally did more damage than he needed to, but it wasn't out of malice or spite or indifference. He did his best at the time, in the moment and the under pressure of the fucking world literally ending. How many of these things would YOU have thought through in real time as someone is pounding YOUR head in? I thought so. With hindsight being 20/20, maybe he would have tried to do some things differently. But isn't that part of what it means to be human? Isn't that what makes him one of us? Aren't these the sorts of questions that the 2 films continue to ask (and ask us to look into ourselves and our own imperfections before casting judgment)? Thus I find enjoyment in the dueling perspectives of humanity trying to figure out where to place this alien diety and wrestling with what it means to be human...and the perspective of the diety (who is really more fragile and in need than one would think) simply trying to help and to find his place to belong among people that want him gone.
So while I very much sympathize with his perspective and what he needs in his movies to be happy with them, I am also very glad that I am not as dependent on those things. I'm happy that I can enjoy a movie with robust dialogue, abundant monologues, and grandiose exposition as much as I can enjoy a movie that trades dialogue in for actions, deeds, and body language from its characters and those in their universe to tell the story of who they are, why and where they're going. The movie is far from perfect (for example, his point about Robin is one that I shared as well, as the Robin suit wasn't even clear to me that it was a Robin suit. I consider that very poor editing indeed), and we all know how weird, awkward and hard to follow the Nightmare scene with Barry was. But his missing some things or not enjoying how other things are communicated outside of his preferred method is, to me, an individual problem. A problem that I and many others do not have.
Motivated me to watch BvS again. So thanks for that, at least.
He makes a good number of fair criticisms. Some of his criticisms made me roll my eyes, however. I understand that he simply "didn't get it" for some things.
For yet other things I understand his type of film watcher and he explains what it is that he needed most from the film that he didn't get enough of: dialogue. Elongated exposition that removes all/most ambiguity, all/most grey, all/most questions. And for the mind that needs those things in order to enjoy what comes next, I can understand how and why BvS and MoS would have fallen well short of what's needed to enjoy the film.
I, however, am not as needy.
I enjoy films that don't answer all the questions immediately (or even at all). I enjoy deciphering intentions based on actions and body language. I enjoy deductive reasoning in the films that offer the opportunity. I do not agree that films need to be as dependent on exposition as Shakespeare plays because the medium provides a flexibility that stage performances do not. Unlike this critic, I did not have a problem with news pundits or the military representing humanity's reaction to Superman. I thought they all asked the essential questions that individual people would have been thinking about or asking about the nature of the Superman. I personally did not need a deep introspective into how Lex set up the Louis encounter early that they framed Superman with. I did not have a problem understanding why Lex was doing what he was doing, though this critic seemed frustrated about his own inability to figure it out. He seemed to not even understand why shattering the messiah image was so important to Lex, despite significant time being spent tackling the same subject (though not always in so many words). These are just a couple of examples, of course.
He is completely correct when he frustratedly points out that the film doesn't do a good job of explaining the reason behind such actions. You do have to offer some gimmies (that is ask less questions and just go "okay") here and there. His continued voicing of frustration about Superman not speaking seems to sort of miss the point of the character who is clearly still trying to find not only his way but his role, and that Lois is important because (a) he loves her and (b) she is the only person in his world currently that is holding his fragile mental state together. His safe place, if you will. It's not *toxic* for christ sake; it's a function of the circumstances and a statement of how much she matters at this point in his life. You shouldn't need a "buh buh why does he lover her so much tho?!!?" explanation, goddamnit. He loves her because he does. I know man a man who would fuck some shit up if something happened to their s/o. They just don't have Superman's power to do it. lol
There were several other things I noted along the way, but it's 3am and I'm quite frankly not all that interested in entertaining his frustration. But the last thing I want to mention is that his position on the opening of BvS is that it is some sort of acknowledgement that the ending of MoS was a mistake attempting to be patched up with BvS. This was not my impression. I found that the end of MoS offered real perspective of the power on display from a Superman still raw in his understanding of who he is. One that did not always do everything well, and the consequences that came with it. Thus for me, BvS simply picked up where MoS left off, where accountability enters that will further mold Clark into the man we all know with the S on his chest. Thus our perspectives (mine and this critic) become essentially polar opposites. For him, it's an apology; for me it's a doubling-down on the already good story arc. Yea, Superman unintentionally did more damage than he needed to, but it wasn't out of malice or spite or indifference. He did his best at the time, in the moment and the under pressure of the fucking world literally ending. How many of these things would YOU have thought through in real time as someone is pounding YOUR head in? I thought so. With hindsight being 20/20, maybe he would have tried to do some things differently. But isn't that part of what it means to be human? Isn't that what makes him one of us? Aren't these the sorts of questions that the 2 films continue to ask (and ask us to look into ourselves and our own imperfections before casting judgment)? Thus I find enjoyment in the dueling perspectives of humanity trying to figure out where to place this alien diety and wrestling with what it means to be human...and the perspective of the diety (who is really more fragile and in need than one would think) simply trying to help and to find his place to belong among people that want him gone.
So while I very much sympathize with his perspective and what he needs in his movies to be happy with them, I am also very glad that I am not as dependent on those things. I'm happy that I can enjoy a movie with robust dialogue, abundant monologues, and grandiose exposition as much as I can enjoy a movie that trades dialogue in for actions, deeds, and body language from its characters and those in their universe to tell the story of who they are, why and where they're going. The movie is far from perfect (for example, his point about Robin is one that I shared as well, as the Robin suit wasn't even clear to me that it was a Robin suit. I consider that very poor editing indeed), and we all know how weird, awkward and hard to follow the Nightmare scene with Barry was. But his missing some things or not enjoying how other things are communicated outside of his preferred method is, to me, an individual problem. A problem that I and many others do not have.
Motivated me to watch BvS again. So thanks for that, at least.
It took 140 posts, but I'm glad someone managed to finally get through it.
Well, for the sake of argument, can you explicitly voice it and support it with evidence? I mean, I get that that he believes that Superman is a false messiah. Reviewer does too, he speaks as to how Lex thinks Superman is a fraud. But a fraud in what sense? That he doesn't actually do things out of a sense of altruism? False because he isn't actually unkillable? And when Lex disproves this, what truth is he supposed to actually prove? Like, okay, Superman is killable after all!.....and....?
To make a comparison to another villain, in the Dark Knight, the Joker is trying plots various schemes around wreaking havok. He sets up his traps so that they are rigged tests of moral character. Try to save Rachel, Batman arrives at Harvey's place. Tell the people to blow up the people on the other boat, they're actually rigged to both blow up as soon as either one pushes the trigger. Why does he do all this? To prove that everyone is a bad person deep inside. But what does that accomplish? Well, in his own words, he's "Not crazy. Just ahead of the curb." At the end, when Batman takes him down, his single moment of uncertainty and confusion is when neither boat blows up, and Batman tells him "What? Did you think deep inside we're all ugly like you? You're alone." That's the true core motive of why the Joker does what he does, seemingly based largely on the Killing Joke. He's lied repeatedly across the film, like claiming he wanted money when later he just burned it to the ground. But what the joker truly wants is to not be wrong about his misanthropy. To not feel alone.
So, back to Lex....what is the true core motive? He will prove that Superman is not a real messiah figure and....and what? He'll have idealogically beaten his father who abused him in the past? He'll save the world? What?
Oh hell yes it's toxic, and I was arguing it wasn't healthy long before I ever saw this video.
If the only thing stopping a guy from being a genocidal tyrant is a single person in their lives, that's not love, that's infatuation to a dangerous degree. And if we were given more reason as to what kind of relationship he and lois have (Yeah, it's obvious he loves her, but why do they share that love?) this disturbing implication could be avoided.
I genuinely wish more DCEU fans were like you then. I don't agree with some of your assessments, but jesus christ, you are mostly able to form a coherent argument for your position and be respectful of differing opinions. Good on you.
Well, for the sake of argument, can you explicitly voice it and support it with evidence? I mean, I get that that he believes that Superman is a false messiah. Reviewer does too, he speaks as to how Lex thinks Superman is a fraud. But a fraud in what sense? That he doesn't actually do things out of a sense of altruism? False because he isn't actually unkillable? And when Lex disproves this, what truth is he supposed to actually prove? Like, okay, Superman is killable after all!.....and....?
To make a comparison to another villain, in the Dark Knight, the Joker is trying plots various schemes around wreaking havok. He sets up his traps so that they are rigged tests of moral character. Try to save Rachel, Batman arrives at Harvey's place. Tell the people to blow up the people on the other boat, they're actually rigged to both blow up as soon as either one pushes the trigger. Why does he do all this? To prove that everyone is a bad person deep inside. But what does that accomplish? Well, in his own words, he's "Not crazy. Just ahead of the curb." At the end, when Batman takes him down, his single moment of uncertainty and confusion is when neither boat blows up, and Batman tells him "What? Did you think deep inside we're all ugly like you? You're alone." That's the true core motive of why the Joker does what he does, seemingly based largely on the Killing Joke. He's lied repeatedly across the film, like claiming he wanted money when later he just burned it to the ground. But what the joker truly wants is to not be wrong about his misanthropy. To not feel alone.
So, back to Lex....what is the true core motive? He will prove that Superman is not a real messiah figure and....and what? He'll have idealogically beaten his father who abused him in the past? He'll save the world? What?
Oh hell yes it's toxic, and I was arguing it wasn't healthy long before I ever saw this video.
If the only thing stopping a guy from being a genocidal tyrant is a single person in their lives, that's not love, that's infatuation to a dangerous degree. And if we were given more reason as to what kind of relationship he and lois have (Yeah, it's obvious he loves her, but why do they share that love?) this disturbing implication could be avoided.
I genuinely wish more DCEU fans were like you then. I don't agree with some of your assessments, but jesus christ, you are mostly able to form a coherent argument for your position and be respectful of differing opinions. Good on you.
You know who you're talking to, right?
You once asked me if similar videos existed in defense of BvS so I'm curious if you just happened upon this video or if you sought it out. If the latter was the case were you looking for a video to support your own opinion or did you just not particularly agree with any offering an opposing perspective?
What did he mean by this?
Member
I wish I knew how to do a video essay. Cuz it seems like people enjoy being spoken to in video essay format and people would listen to my opinions more.
One of these days
One of these days
I was actually looking up his Captain America Civil War video. I saw it a long time ago and I thought it was excellent, but I never checked out his channel to see what else he had. I did this time, so here we are.
I am fully willing to look at an opposing argument and give it a fair shake to the best of my ability. But I just don't see how one can make a strong argument in favor of BvS on it's own merits given that there's just that little of redeeming value in them. And I know that's an opinion and I need to be open minded and shit, and I try to be....but shit, it's BvS. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just haven't come across anything like it. If you have a video (or written, I don't really care) essay that argues in favor of BvS's story on it's own terms, I'd be happy to give it a listen, sure. I can't promise I'll agree with it, nor can I promise that I wouldn't respond to any of it's assertions if I feel they are weak or wrong, but I'm not intellectually dishonest, if that's what your asking. This isn't me just trying to fillet the movie at any opportunity. I just found a video I thought was worth sharing.
I guess all I can really say is I'm sorry BvS failed you like that. Interestingly enough the more I watch Civil War the less fond of it I grow.
I should look more into Civil War though. With BvS I've watched quite a few for and against video essays (including the one you posted). Countless articles or blogs for and against. Each one shaping how I feel about the movie in some way so I'm curious what the end result would be for me and Civil War.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I'm not sure which film is worse tbh. BvS sent me into a fit of nerd rage. B&R left me feeling empty and
cold
Eh. I've had worse. The main this is that it didn't catch me off guard. Ever since Zack Snyder introduced the film with an excerpt from The Dark Knight Returns....specifically the demeaning, power tripping speech Batman gives to Superman at the end...I knew exactly what to watch out for. It's not to say that I wasn't hoping for the film to be good, but I knew that if it was going to be bad, it'd be bad in how it characterized Batman and Superman's conflict first and foremost.
Bracing against that blow mitigated a lot of it. Now, the ending to Mass Effect 3 made me legitimately despondent for like a whole week. If I hadn't seen it coming like I didn't ME3, that would have been way worse.
Have you seen the guy's Civil War video too?
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