thehypocrite
Member
45 minutes? I rather watch the extended version of the film again 👌
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Probably the best Batman v Superman video essay I've come across
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
- Status
I have not. To be honest, like 75% of the reason I've watched or read so much about BvS had to do with the constant discussion of the movie here on GAF. By comparison I haven't watched anything on Man of Steel or Suicide Squad (I did see the editing video which was really good). Or really any movie, cape or no cape.
I will watch the CW video today at some point. I'm genuinely curious how my opinion might be shaped if I go into CW like I did BvS.
I feel like Man of Steel was the BvS before it's time and got constant threads, but nothing like this. Before MoS, The Dark Knight Rises was brought up every month or so. Idk, DC movies just stick in the mind. Probably because it's Batman and Superman, the two most iconic heroes. I genuinely am curious what a Post Wonder Woman world will be like, especially since it depends on greatly on how good it's gonna be
(Please be good, please be good, please be good...)
Anyway, post in this thread or something when you've watched it. I'm curious to know what you think of it.
Lol, I'm right there with you. WW has had proper time to cook after the whole BvS and SS debacle. Jenkins seems to have the right mindset for what WB wants out of these movies while still framing it as part of Snyder's work. I'd be more than happy with just a simple and fun little romp starring Wonder Woman. I don't know that we will really see where WB is trying to shift things until after Aquman though I feel JL will set some of that shift up. And it will do so regardless of its own quality.
Edit: Yea, I'll give my thoughts afterwards.
Messofanego
Banned
As someone who prefers DC, keep on criticising DC cinematic universe. People need to understand why these are bad movies and what can be done to improve them. Otherwise you end up with a significant batch of people who love the Star Wars prequels genuinely 😂
Chris Stuckmann's thumbnails always makes me laugh because his actual reviews are pretty low on the stupid face scale - they're actually relatively chill.
I was rebutting a lot of his points until the 20 mins or so mark where he said that the plotholes he found might have been explained in the film but he just didn't care. Then i thought why should i.I did save my rebuttals so may post them another time Then the Robin shit came and I was just hit with a barrage of stupid of him nitpicking shit explained in his own fucking arguments in his own fucking video e.g he talked about Bruce and Alfred always being criminals at the start and then asked if Bruce and Alfred knew people die from his Batman's actions. Oh and the JL stuff, thank goodness I watched till the end of the movie where Bruce talks about finding other metahumans and recruiting them to fight other alien threats. 26.30 is so damn stupid. Ahhhh he then says the Lois stuff is under developed? Thank goodness they didn't spend a movie where they started falling in love. Have their lovers' tiffs about saving Lois all the damn tim,or show they can trust each other with their lives with just a glance and when he says he doesn't care.... he says he doesn't care about people talking shit about him because he was more worried his girlfriend was going to have her brains blown out than people talking shit about him. Fuck me, dumb arguments make sense when divorced from context.
Well, you'd know.
Course I would, I read them a lot.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Man of Steel got a ton of threads. I participated in quite a bit of them - spent a fair amount of time arguing against the primary "He leveled a whole city 100% all by himself and murdered so many people" narrative as it was emerging (I lost badly).
It wasn't a very good movie. Turns out it was just okay.
It wasn't until Batman v Superman that whatever on-pause goodwill the cinematic universe had got spoiled and went rotten in the fridge.
It wasn't a very good movie. Turns out it was just okay.
It wasn't until Batman v Superman that whatever on-pause goodwill the cinematic universe had got spoiled and went rotten in the fridge.
I always just thought that Zack Snyder just got a little ahead of himself when playing with his two indestructible supergods and didn't realize the consequences of it would be taken that seriously. Man of Steel came off to me as a bit tone deaf. Hell, a lot of scenes were like that. Pa Kent seriously entertaining the idea of letting children drown, kissing Lois amidst destruction, having Zod's death be immediately followed up by a joke about how that wily Superman just destroyed a surveillance drone. It felt innocent though, like they were honest mistakes in Superman's depiction.
It's BvS where, in addition to being a bad movie, feels like it resents it's audience. "Oh, so you didn't like the destruction of the last movie. Fine, the fight takes place in a downtown area. It's workday is over, so it's nearly empty. Contrived? Whatever..." It's the vibe I got for big parts of it anyway.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Personally I think just pointing out specific details like editing, characters, or the cultural value of any superhero is more worthwhile than just making a huge video on it. Though with BvS you'd have to go on about all those things and it's just way more efficient to just say: "it stinks!" and be done with it. Spend your time on something else, like Batman & Robin. Now there is a movie worth discussing in detail. :'D
mariachi507
Member
The guy is off point at one part of the video about needing dialogue to explain character motivations or story because visuals alone will not do the job. Not everything needs to spelled out for the viewer. Fury Road alone stands as proof of this.
I'm not saying that BvS does a good job in this regard either, but just talking in general.
I'm not saying that BvS does a good job in this regard either, but just talking in general.
I doubt that. I find myself wanting to disagree with that guy even when I am perfectly in sync with every position he takes. I think he just has a different thought process, so even if we agree, it's for different reasons. And this tends to be doubly true in regards to superhero films.
Failing that, I usually just hate his presentation.
I don't think he necessarily means people literally talking to each other, but having the specific ideas communicated at all. Fury Road doesn't have much dialogue, but absolutely no one came out of the film not understanding that it was about slavery and dehumanization in all its forms. Fury Road never stopped communicating its character motivations, even if it didn't speak.
yeah but
you all keep watching these. Especially to get impressions for new movies.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
This thread ended up going like I thought it would, which is why my comment was totally valid in the first post:
Fans of the film: "I like BvS. Sometimes for reasons, other times because I jut do."
Veelk, BobbyRoberts,DashRipRock (or whatever): "Those same reasons are why the movie is factually terrible. It is my opinion that your opinion is invalid."
Like seriously, how could this ever amount to any sort of worthwhile discussion? You are basically talking down to us by explaining why the thing we enjoy is shit and how our opinions are invalid shit.
So, go out and look for more "deep" video essays which rehash the same points over and over, and over, and over, and over, etc. I am sure you will finally convince us that our innate response to the film (enjoyment, introspection, excitement, etc.) is stupid and we will finally wake up and realize you were right all along.
Fans of the film: "I like BvS. Sometimes for reasons, other times because I jut do."
Veelk, BobbyRoberts,DashRipRock (or whatever): "Those same reasons are why the movie is factually terrible. It is my opinion that your opinion is invalid."
Like seriously, how could this ever amount to any sort of worthwhile discussion? You are basically talking down to us by explaining why the thing we enjoy is shit and how our opinions are invalid shit.
So, go out and look for more "deep" video essays which rehash the same points over and over, and over, and over, and over, etc. I am sure you will finally convince us that our innate response to the film (enjoyment, introspection, excitement, etc.) is stupid and we will finally wake up and realize you were right all along.
lucebuce12
Member
Jesus Christ
B&R is worse. BvS at least has real ambition. It tries to do big things, which is exactly what makes it such a colossal failure. In competent hands it would have been genre defining (and you could argue that it still is, in a bad way).
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Seriously. One day, he will find that silver bullet essay that finally wakes us up to the truth of BvS shittiness... Like who has that much time to devote to something that they have literally ZERO love for?
Almost no one's been anything but civil to most people here. At worst, I ribbed Bleepey a few times, but that's because it's Bleepey. Meanwhile, you opened the thread conversation trying to silence me from speaking my opinion.
Stop with the melodramatic persecution complex.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Your contributions certainly helped ensure the endpoint you foresaw coming to fruition
The worthwhile discussion comes when you're willing to debate the film itself, and not the people disagreeing with you on how they digested the storytelling the film was serving up.
Measuring the value of a discussion solely by tabulating the number of people who agree with the majority of your points feels better, certainly, but I'm not sure it actually lends itself to any sort of better understanding.
You don't seem particularly interested in any sort of understanding that isn't the one you've already arrived at, and tend to seek ways to dismiss, undermine, eliminate, or ridicule the people offering different viewpoints, going so far as to fabricate entire motivations for why they arrived at (and shared) those views so as to facilitate even easier dismissal/underminding/elimination/ridicule.
So of course the conversation is going to dead-end. You're steering it into a fuckin' brick wall whenever you get your hands on the wheel.
Because this doesn't even really seem to be about movies, in the end. There's some weird strain of personal validation and vindication humming underneath most of this shit, and the percieved quality of the film (and ones ability to manipulate others into sharing that perception) is useful mostly in its ability to achieve that validation.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
he made those faces
EdibleKnife
Member
That really was a good analysis
Count Dookkake
Member
Really ironic its only the certain stans that spend time talking down. Its men in tights brehs
As someone who has watched many video essays on BvS both attacking and in defense of it is my experience that no one really knows anything. Some parts of these videos will connect with you and some parts won't. Your own ability to stand by yourself will determine what sticks and what doesn't. I've seen someone turn nearly apple red in anger at how immensely stupid the Martha moment was. I've seen another man break down into tears just talking about the scene because it hit them so hard on an emotional level. Now, keep those two in mind and look at yourself. How did you feel about that scene? And which one of those guys do you think you would better relate to? What you've done now is take something that fits your perspective and turned it into a supporting argument but it's not necessarily going to make you right. At best you can say "I'm not alone in thinking this" but the person you're arguing against can say the same so the argument is circular and pointless.
Just having a conversation is something else altogether which I believe is what Veelk is going for here. Using the video he posted to say, "Haha yep, that's why BvS sucks" means about as much as saying, "Pfft, BvS is awesome so this video sucks".
Just having a conversation is something else altogether which I believe is what Veelk is going for here. Using the video he posted to say, "Haha yep, that's why BvS sucks" means about as much as saying, "Pfft, BvS is awesome so this video sucks".
Very true. It seems the DCEU make more interesting ambitious failures than MCU successes. That said Suicide Squad which has its fans, no one cares as much.
Don't worry, you'll always have Thor 2: The Dark World.
In fact, I'm surprised we haven't gotten to that part of the thread yet.
I suppose that makes Thor: 2: Dark: World the most interesting CBM of all time. Nobody can help themselves from talking about it. Such a great and not-at-all grasping at straws metric.
So made my way through it. I wanted to stop at the 5 minute mark since the guy misses some major points which completely invalidates some of his later criticisms about the Martha-moment. But he makes some interesting points afterwards.
Lets talk about the Martha-moment since that is the most talked about thing in this film. From the first sequence it becomes clear that Snyder is working towards that moment, and it is a bit that is missed by a lot of these essays for some reason. In the opening sequence we get shown some important details:
This is then confirmed to the audience in the second dream sequence where we see a literal Batman being born out of his mother's grave. So the film is going out of its way to show the audience the importance of Martha to Bruce, without blatantly saying it. This entire Batman exists for the most part because of the death of his mother. So when the moment happens it is not something out of the blue but actively worked towards by Snyder.
Now I do think the moment could have been more effective if we see more of Clark researching Bruce, finding out about his parents and finding common ground between him and Bruce. So that when the battle begins it's about Batman only caring about the differences between them (which is a problem at the core of most human conflicts) and Superman trying to reason with the ways they are alike, culminating in the Martha-moment.
Lets talk about the Martha-moment since that is the most talked about thing in this film. From the first sequence it becomes clear that Snyder is working towards that moment, and it is a bit that is missed by a lot of these essays for some reason. In the opening sequence we get shown some important details:
- His mother is the pro-active one when Joe Chill is holding them at gunpoint
- Bruce looks towards his dying mother instead of his father
- The last word his father says is 'Martha'
- We see his mother's pearls fall beside young Bruce in the cave.
This is then confirmed to the audience in the second dream sequence where we see a literal Batman being born out of his mother's grave. So the film is going out of its way to show the audience the importance of Martha to Bruce, without blatantly saying it. This entire Batman exists for the most part because of the death of his mother. So when the moment happens it is not something out of the blue but actively worked towards by Snyder.
Now I do think the moment could have been more effective if we see more of Clark researching Bruce, finding out about his parents and finding common ground between him and Bruce. So that when the battle begins it's about Batman only caring about the differences between them (which is a problem at the core of most human conflicts) and Superman trying to reason with the ways they are alike, culminating in the Martha-moment.
EdibleKnife
Member
The moment would have been more effective if Clark just said "Save my Mother" instead of "Save Matha" then. Actually would have fit thematically with what Snyder was trying to set up instead of just looking like Batman would only stop if their mothers shared the same name ie. Bats would have still killed him if Martha Kent was named Lisa Kent instead.
The whole point of that sequence is that they share a name, so like I said they should have shown a short sequence where Clark reads up on Bruce's parents killing and that it was established that he knew their mothers share the same name. This scene would not be in a film if she was called Lisa Kent.
People talk about One Direction, does that make them a good band?
Jesus christ, this is the weakest defense for something imaginable.
I like you.
This is a stupid thread though. Are people really that insecure over people enjoying something that is supposedly bad? I don't know who I pity more; the OP, or the guy who spent hours putting this video together lmao.
All of this is accurate, but the problem is that the moment it's all working toward is 1. An incredibly dumb idea, and 2. Incredibly poorly executed. That's what's so crushingly bad and darkly hilarious about the "Martha" moment: It's the one "emotional" beat in the film that Snyder actively works to earn, and it doesn't work at all because at no point in the moment do any of the participants seem like believable human beings in any way. It's all well and good to choose something to be your big emotional core on which your major character conflict turns, but you have to choose something that is an actual identifiable emotional moment that unfolds naturally and gives the audience, if not a moment in which they identify with both characters simultaneously, at least gives them a catharsis in finally causing the characters in conflict to connect in the way the audience has been waiting for them to connect.
No one was waiting for Superman to save his own ass by pleading for the lunatic in battle armor to save a random person named Martha. In that situation, someone would say "Save my mom," or "Luthor is holding my mom hostage," or "If I don't kill you, Lex Luthor is going to kill my mother." Nobody on the planet or off it would just blurt out "SAVE MARTHA" as though they not only call their mother by their first name (Clark doesn't in this film), but that the other guy automatically knows which Martha to save. The only reason it's said like that is to give Bruce his moment where he comes to a moral realization because his mom has the same name, and that's really, really bad writing. It's also kind of a bad idea in its very concept, but it could have sort of worked if Superman had just said one of the mom lines and the idea of a criminal murdering someone's mother caused Bruce to have his moral event horizon moment because really that's the crux of Batman's existence more than anything else, not what her fucking name is, or the fact that other women with children have that name. Instead of making it a moment of connection between the characters, the awkward phrasing that doesn't even try to make it a believable interaction or dialogue exchange makes it by turns both comical and insultingly clumsy.
I know a lot of people who hate the movie like to say the "Martha!" thing comes out of nowhere, and I agree with you that they're wrong. I do not agree, however, that laying the groundwork for a moment automatically makes the moment earned or good. The moment has to be that on its own, and the groundwork merely gets you there organically. BvS' "Martha!" moment is an awkward, badly written, poorly conceived moment that is technically earned thematically and in the plot, but it's just taking a bad idea and working backward from there. So yeah, Snyder definitely sets up his payoff here, but the payoff doesn't payoff, so it doesn't matter.
I like you.
This is a stupid thread though. Are people really that insecure over people enjoying something that is supposedly bad? I don't know who I pity more; the OP, or the guy who spent hours putting this video together lmao.
Neither. It's called criticism and discussion, and it's what people who are interested in what makes films effective or ineffective like to do to analyze them. If you don't care to do that, nobody's forcing you to read the thread. In most other topics on this forum, directly questioning the need for the existence of a thread is a serious no-no, but apparently not when it comes to film crit.
EdibleKnife
Member
They don't need to share a name though. As you laid out, what matters is that Batman is haunted by the loss of his mother and should be triggered to sympathy knowing that Supes isn't an anomaly or monster but has a mother who he cares for who is also currently in danger.
The problems with it are much more numerous than that.
1. As the review mentions, Superman has no reason to believe that Batman is any less of an unhinged sociopath for the fact that Lex pushed him into fighting him.
2. For that matter, he has no reason to believe Batman would have a better chance of finding her than he would. Therefore...
3. Superman has no reason to not look for his mother by himself. After all, he's the one with the superhearing.
4. Even if it plays into Batman's psyche to have his mother named, that doesn't actually change anything about the conflict Batman and Superman have. Batman still killed plenty of people which Superman deemed immoral. Superman is still a walking WMD. Martha being Martha solves nothing about that. To drop all that because Martha is in danger and both heroes agree that mothers ought to be saved kind of belies their lack of integrity in their own beliefs. They were ready to kill each other before this. Superman threatened to kill Batman if he showed up again, while Batman plotted out Superman's murder. Suddenly, all that goes down the train because they found a momentary common cause?
5. Having Martha resolve the conflict by enlightening Batman to Superman's humanity or whatever kind of confirms that Batman is an unhinged, psychotic hypocrite who belongs in jail. At best, this moment confirms that he was so far gone that he plotted out an innocent person's murder for a year and half out of sheer paranoid fear and hatred. And the kicker is that he is assembling the league for this exact same reason, all over again! Except this time it's okay because the alien he others is going to actually be bad.
6. Having a mother be a primary motivator isn't a bad or inherently unworkable thing. But the thing is, that's not really whats happening here. We never really get introduced to Batman's mother. She isn't characterized in the work beyond being a victim of a mugging with that weird pearl necklace shot. She's not a person in Batman's life, she's just some abstract maternal figurehead. So Batman changing his mind on a dime because he coincidentally invokes the name of Bruce's personal psychological hangup who is never defined as a person to resolve a conflict without resolving any of the actual problems these characters have with each other is one of the most narratively unsatisfying turning points I've ever seen in any movie.
There's even more than that, but you get my point. Snyder establishing that "Martha" is a trigger word for him alone isn't enough for it to work as a key for the turning point of the movie.
I don't think anyone is saying that, literally, Martha being spoken is specifically itself the reason why Batman lets Superman live.
But it is the trigger word that catalyzes the changes that occur rapidly that culminate in his change of allegiance. Batman hears Martha and decides that figuring out why he says that name alone is enough to post pone his murder of Superman until he gets answers. Then Lois comes in explaining that it's his mother. Which then further triggers Batman's change of emotional perspective, from viewing Superman as an alien to almost a brother. After this moment, he declares himself Superman's friend to his mother after he saves him (in the most inappropriate comic relief scene I've seen in a while). At best, I would be highly disturbed by an individual who was seconds away from murdering me suddenly turning around and acting like we're buddies and want to get away from them as quickly as possible.
Assuming this is a proper reading of what happened, this is nevertheless weak stuff. Batman only confirms he has the emotional intelligence of a 5 year old and that he is in desperate need of being locked up until he gets the help he needs. He makes up pretenses of Superman being a danger and threat when in actuality he's just angry and afraid, takes sadistic pleasure in breaking him down at his weakest, and is thoroughly dehumanizing him in his mind the entire time...and then because he discovers that commonality between them, he suddenly reverses all his positions entirely, where he now views himself as Superman's friend and sees him as a 'real person' even though he STILL doesn't know anything about him beyond that he wants to save his mother. No mature, healthy person percieves the world like this. And it doesn't work to elevate the narrative either for reasons already stated.
Who's talking about defense? That this movie produces an intellectual discussion is a win for me, it fits my tastes very much. I'm over mindless "fun", I'd rather have flawed behemots.
One Direction is not a bad band btw.
While I don't really disagree with any point you make here I would like to counter with: it's Batman. Who obviously is not very psychologically stable to begin with. Now we all know that like a Rorschach test comic book characters will be seen in different ways by different people. Growing up and reading Batman stories my outlook on Batman has always been that he's a disturbed individual but tries not to let it overcome him. So he takes the trauma of his childhood and focuses it on preventing that trauma from occurring to others. This is why he has a soft spot for bringing in children under his wing and nursing them into stronger versions of themselves. But that trauma is constantly eating away at him and as time goes on he's losing his own inner battle. So for me, Snyder's take on Batman specifically in BvS was right on the money and it's a Batman I've wanted to see on-screen for as long as I can remember. If you had an entirely different read on Batman then I can sympathize with not getting what you would have liked to see.
As for the "I'm a friend of your son's" it's just an expression. Poor form? Maybe. But harmless in the grander scheme of things. Would it have been better if he fully explained his relationship to Superman to her in that moment? Probably not.
Exploratory
Banned
Horrible film has popular characters thus people watched and like it. That's pretty much BVS' story. Personally I think it's one of the worst films of all time.
- Status