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ProJared - Sonic Adventure 2: This is what people want from 3D sonics?

I found the knuckles/rouge levels to be the best part of the game. Agree with him on tails/eggman though those levels were super tedious.
 
I really liked SA1. A lot.
However the mulitple characters, that was whack. But Sonic's main campaign, the gameplay IN LEVEL was really fun and I liked exploring the hubworld.

I think I might prefer it to the 2D Sonic games. Although they were an iconic part of my childhood and ALWAYS get fuzzy feelings when I hear green hill zone, I'm not sure what to actually do to in the games.

I haven't played SA2, I tried once, but the game seemed so dated that I didn't get into it . Maybe that negates everything I just said and there is more to the 2 D Games than nostalgia...
 
This video is mostly spot-on. I wouldn't call the non-Sonic stages awful, but they are terribly mediocre mostly with some being ok and some being just not really fun. I agree with his criticisms that a few tweaks and differences would've made the Knuckles/Tails etc. stages a lot more enjoyable. I replay parts of the game in my old savefile from early 2000s from time to time, but yes, I usually just replay and try to highscore on my favorite Sonic & Shadow stages and call it a day. The story is crazy and tries too hard to be edgy and cool.

They got it right twice, with Sonic Generations and Sonic Colours. Both of them cut the bad parts, concentrate on Sonic and speed, optimisation of the core Sonic gameplay, almost nonexistant or ignorable inoffensive storylines... if anything, Generations is of a game quality I wished the Adventure games would've had since I really have a soft spot for them. But that's mostly nostalgia and being a Dreamcast fan.

To those who want the Sonic series to die: No. If the last Sonic games you enjoyed were the MegaDrive/Genesis titles, ok, 3D Sonic in general might not be your cup of tea despite some of them being great games. The concept of 3D Sonic has potential and promise, some pulled it of perfectly fine (again, Generations which is one of my favorite 3D platform games, and Colours). It is true though that Sonic isn't head to head with Mario anymore as it was in the early 90s. Even the franchises more recent high points are merely runners up to 3D Mario which is on fire with the Galaxy and 3D World games.

I think the reason why for many of us it is sad to see many Sonic games failing to be good coherent games and sometimes being legendary bad games instead (Sonic 06 and Boom) is as follows: There is promise. Be it the daylight stages of Unleashed, the great quality of Generations and Colours, the better Sonic-centric stages of Adventure... somewhere in these games lies a formula of speedy 3D platforming and arcade-quality coolness which shines through but often gets overshadowed by outright bad parts of the games. The focus is always slightly off, for every good new mechanic they tend to introduce something else of lesser quality. Which is why I would not want to have the franchise dead, instead I always wish that with the next game, they are finally able to nail it again.
 
It's okay, they got it right with Colors and Generations.

Even Lost World was an interesting game, where they tried some new things.

Let's just wait for the next Sonic game, I am sure that Sonic Team will keep up the good work.
 
For me, Sonic died with the Genesis. I couldn't stand SA1 and 2.

Me too, every sonic game I have tried since (apart from Generations because that game seems the closest to the classic ganes for me) has just not delivered the experience I want from a sonic game.

I think the end point he makes is where it's all gone wrong, adding the friends....was a terrible terrible mistake and it's no coincidence the sonic levels are the most fond.

They need to reboot the series to what it was sonic,tails, knuckles and Robotnik and not make it 3d/pseudo 3d. Then try again, now do they have the talent there to make a game like the old ones? That's an entiry different discussion.
 
I like the Adventure games now, loved them as a kid though. Chao Garden was indeed an obsession.

3D Sonic should definitely strive to be more like Colors and Generations, though.
 
Me too, every sonic game I have tried since (apart from Generations because that game seems the closest to the classic ganes for me) has just not delivered the experience I want from a sonic game.

I think the end point he makes is where it's all gone wrong, adding the friends....was a terrible terrible mistake and it's no coincidence the sonic levels are the most fond.

They need to reboot the series to what it was sonic,tails, knuckles and Robotnik and not make it 3d/pseudo 3d. Then try again, now do they have the talent there to make a game like the old ones? That's an entiry different discussion.

Hire the person who made Freedom Planet
Have him lead a team in a new sonic game
...
Profit.
 
I agree with a lot of what Jared said, but I don't think the problem with the game is 'Sonic's Stupid Friends', it's the gameplay associated with them. They don't play like a Sonic game. Like, Tails worked fine in SA1 because, at his core, he played like Sonic with a few twists to make him different (racing an opponent, ability to fly, his own abilities, etc.). And the same goes for Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Knuckles could climb walls, glide, and had his own separate paths from Sonic/Tails, but he still moved fast, and his goal was still 'Get to the goal'. If they'd just adapt that style, where you had 3 separate characters, who had the same core gameplay with enough differences to make them feel different from one another, they'd be fine.

I think it's also worth noting that they actively made the treasure hunting stages WORSE from SA1. The radar is able to pick up all three emerald pieces at the same time, as opposed to focusing on one, and there's no ranking system, so you don't have to worry about your rank going down by using hints.

The 'Ow the Edge' kinda stories need to be canned though.
 
Sonic Adventure 2 to me is much worse than the first Adventure game, and on its own merits is pretty mediocre. While SA2 is more technically competent (which has allowed it to aged better over time), I feel it took the flawed aspects of SA1 and amplified them to an even worse manner, rather than actually fixing them (level design) or doing away with them completely (genre roulette).

Treasure hunting stages are twice as big, which wouldn't be so bad if the hints weren't aggravatingly cryptic and the radar was neutered to only detecting one emerald at a time. Mech shooting stages controlled much clunkier (and for some reason Tails was stuffed into one...ugh) and felt slippery at times. Even the speedy platforming stages are a lot more automated and linear, they almost seem like a precursor to the boost games as there is very little playspace and a general lack of exploration or environmental gimmicks. And the worst part was that someone had the brilliant idea to streamline all playstyles into each story mode. I'm also not fond of its darker and edgier / "realistic" tone it had in both narrative and artstyle (which I feel obviously gave way to the likes of ShTH and Sonic 06).

SA1 in contrast I think its largest problem was the genre roulette, and even then I can partially forgive its inclusion as it was Sonic Team's first attempt with Sonic in 3D. SA2 has no excuse for not only preserving those aspects, but also retooling them to be designed even worse.
 
I would disagree. Like I said the Genesis games are pretty light about throwing bullshit in your path that you don't have time to react to. Running into badniks is easily solved by rolling as much as possible as that will kill most enemies.

Also I have to chuckle whenever someone describes (classic) Sonic level design as "shallow." Compared to other platformers Sonic makes extensive use of both the vertical and horizontal, is filled with interactable set pieces and often forces the player to go both left and right, up and down. Compare that to Mario or the first DKC - nearly every level is heavily horizontal or heavily vertical and usually you're always going up or always going to the right. To me this makes Sonic's levels feel like genuine environments rather than game boards. Sonic 3 and Knuckles especially excels in this regard.

Your confusing big complex level layouts with game play depth. Mincraft has massive worlds that can hold all kinds of land and cave formations, dosn't make the actul gameplay any deeper. It's all part of the rollercoaster approach, lots of cool looking contraptions to run through and set off. But how many of them do you have much control over and how many are "run fast through here to advance in a set way?" How many enemies can you really interact with in any depth, kicking shells in Mario, the slight change in how things play out when you stomp a Goomba and it's brief squashed state makes the one behind it bounce off of it and turn around? Most enemies aren't there to influence how you move through the levels, but another thing to blast through.
 
lol

Shitting on the old sonic games is like failing platforming 101

The original trilogy fails at platformining 101 on it's own, as much as I enjoyed the Sonic games my memory of the later levels are filtered out (much like the none Sonic/Shadow levels in Sonic Adventure games) because the emphasis on speed which is the fun part of Sonic games that are demonstrated in the earlier levels are neutered for actual platform platforming, where it starts to feel like trying to play a mario game with the run button held down the whole time... Without the run and jump height advantage Mario gains for such an action.
 
The crux of the video was apparent from outer space. Less friends and more Sonic. Focus should be set on speed, mild platforming and alternate routes. Anything that slows down that should tossed immediately. No keys, no switches and no restraints. This is what prevents the 3D Sonic games from being good. That and SEGA of course.
 
Your confusing big complex level layouts with game play depth. Mincraft has massive worlds that can hold all kinds of land and cave formations, dosn't make the actul gameplay any deeper. It's all part of the rollercoaster approach, lots of cool looking contraptions to run through and set off. But how many of them do you have much control over and how many are "run fast through here to advance in a set way?" How many enemies can you really interact with in any depth, kicking shells in Mario, the slight change in how things play out when you stomp a Goomba and it's brief squashed state makes the one behind it bounce off of it and turn around? Most enemies aren't there to influence how you move through the levels, but another thing to blast through.

The original trilogy fails at platformining 101 on it's own, as much as I enjoyed the Sonic games my memory of the later levels are filtered out (much like the none Sonic/Shadow levels in Sonic Adventure games) because the emphasis on speed which is the fun part of Sonic games that are demonstrated in the earlier levels are neutered for actual platform platforming, where it starts to feel like trying to play a mario game with the run button held down the whole time... Without the run and jump height advantage Mario gains for such an action.

Both instances are true if you're looking at Sonic games from purely a speedrunning viewpoint (upon which the heavily-marketed speed aspect of the games is partially responsible for that). But the thing about the Genesis games is that they are designed more on how the player being fast with Sonic through their movement--something that's been gradually phased out of following Sonic titles. Here are two examples of the player using the momentum they gain to accomplish specific tasks.

Also on the bit about level design, knowing the level layout is only one part of playing, let alone speedrunning, in the Genesis games-its also using the sloped design of the levels themselves and the games' physics to your advantage in the context of movement. This picture is a pretty good explanation of what's behind the old physics, and these two videos (especially the description in the second) are excellent instances of them in action.
 
A lot of kids who grew up with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are the ones clamoring for more games like Sonic Adventure. Anyone who has played Sonic 06 can tell you that the adventure series needs to say dead. Likewise, anyone who has played Unleashed/Colors/Generations can tell you that the gameplay (Minus Werehog/classic Sonic) are the evolution of the speed levels in the adventure series.

His review is right; The Sonic levels are the best levels of the bunch and have aged significantly better than the other parts of the game. That said, we know this? People have been saying this since Sonic Adventure 2 was released. This is why the series focused on specifically Sonic/Shadow level type gameplay in Heroes (Which mediocre success).

Didn't really care for the video all that much. Shitting on Sonic games is such an easy thing for people to do in these types of videos. They do it because it'll get em views and they're easy target. Gets tiresome after awhile.
 
A lot of kids who grew up with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are the ones clamoring for more games like Sonic Adventure. Anyone who has played Sonic 06 can tell you that the adventure series needs to say dead. Likewise, anyone who has played Unleashed/Colors/Generations can tell you that the gameplay (Minus Werehog/classic Sonic) are the evolution of the speed levels in the adventure series.

His review is right; The Sonic levels are the best levels of the bunch and have aged significantly better than the other parts of the game. That said, we know this? People have been saying this since Sonic Adventure 2 was released. This is why the series focused on specifically Sonic/Shadow level type gameplay in Heroes (Which mediocre success).

Didn't really care for the video all that much. Shitting on Sonic games is such an easy thing for people to do in these types of videos. They do it because it'll get em views and they're easy target. Gets tiresome after awhile.
I would say Unleashed was a good continuation of the Adventure formula. Adventure fields, missions, medals being like emblems etc. In fact I believe it was called SA3 at one point in development (which is why it's called Sonic World Adventure in Japan).

If the Werehog wasn't such shit and the medal collecting was toned way down it would be a very worthy successor.

Even 06 could have been much better than it was - look up Paraxade0's mod of Wave Ocean into the Generations engine. If THAT came out in 2006 public
perception of the series would be much different.
 
Despite camera issues, the Sonic and Shadow levels were great in that game, which is why people ask for more games going in that direction. It's not that the *whole* game is great, but it can serve as a base for speeding levels, while improving on what needs to be improved, like Colors and Generations did in their own ways.
 
I really wish that folks wouldn't conflate Sonic's friends with shitty gameplay gimmicks. There are plenty of things that can be done with Tails/Knux/Amy and the like without completely deviating from Sonic's core gameplay. Advance 1 and 2 were great in this regard; the pieces were there for Advance 3 but the execution was botched. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
I agree with a lot of his issues, but Sonic Adventure 2 is still one of my favorite games. I think he kind of overblows some of the issues with the Tails/Knuckles-style stages because they're basically nonexistent if you don't try to go for A-ranks (I never have and I imagine it would be a nightmare to do so), so otherwise it wouldn't matter that Knuckles' stages are RNG-dependent or that you'd constantly hear the beeping noise throughout Tails' stages (though you'll still hear it a lot). Also he just kind of glosses over the Tails/Eggman stages otherwise; they're mostly just slow, kinda average-at-worst third-person shooter/platformers hybrids. The weakest parts of the game to be sure but not bad. I've also never really had trouble controlling Knuckles/Rogue in their stages, and I found the style of gameplay within them to be pretty unique if not fully realized.

Otherwise, I sort of look at 3D Sonic games pre-Unleashed (aside from 06, which I haven't played and looks legitimately awful to actually play) as existing in this weird space where there are so many issues with them and none of them bother me. Heroes/Shadow sort of exist in this so-bad-it's-good-like territory, but the others I legitimately enjoy for some reason. Going back to SA2, as ProJared said the camera in Sonic stages, the slow pace in Tails/Eggman stages, the horrendously awful story, the Knuckles/Rogue stages not really being designed around the characters' abilities well (I never even thought about this one before he mentioned it but he's totally right), etc. none of it bothers me, because it doesn't actually hinder my enjoyment of the game. The camera can be annoying at worst but I never have difficulty knowing where I'm going. The slow pace in Tails/Eggman stages I can forgive because the stages are short and not too plentiful, the story is hilarious (seriously reading any summary of it just makes me LMAO), and despite the Tails/Knuckles levels not being designed around the characters they're not really too difficult to complete and you have plenty of time to do so usually.

I feel like I can forgive the game for its issues, partially because,
1) There are some parts of it that I really, really love (City Escape is like my favorite level in any game, the Chao Garden was really well realized and had a ton of content, the music is awesomely corny)
2) The game constantly changes up its gameplay types which I find refreshing. No one type wears out its welcome, so I never really spend too much time with one type of gameplay to get pissed off at its flaws before something else starts. In addition to the three gameplay types there's also the racing minigame and the Chao Garden so there's a ton of variety. In a way I think I actually prefer this to a game that's just really focused on one gameplay type; Super Mario Galaxy, for example, just focuses on pure platforming and it does it really, really well but I had more fun with SA2 even though it's a much more poorly designed game because it's constantly changing this up.
3) Nostalgia, obviously.
 
Did anybody like the scoring system and mechanics in SA2 that reward you for timing, tricks and stuff like that? or how using the light dash rewarded you with speed, attack and other things (and was actually reliable unlike future games pre Unleashed)? Did anybody like that SA2 was probably the rare moment in Sonic history (At the time) when Sonic controlled perfectly? Or how it encouraged mastery of techniques and level? Combo lock ons with the machines? Checking obvious places in the treasure hunting stages once you became used to the locations? Chao Garden?

While I don't want future Sonic Games to be SA2, there was a lot I liked about SA2 that I feel was right, and it was even functional, which automatically atleast places it in a mediocre field.

There are much better Sonic games nowadays, and to be honest games like Unleashed and Generations even built on what SA2 left, and improved unlike the worst three games in its history (Heroes -debatable- , Shadow, and 06) which at times felt to even be functional.

I actually am satisfied with Sonic Team's current output in game design which are functional attempts and sometimes risky directions (Kinda wish they leave the colors shit alone tho.) I think people who say they want a new Sonic Adventure just want to be able to play with the other characters again, which I'm not above saying I miss too.
 
The original trilogy fails at platformining 101 on it's own, as much as I enjoyed the Sonic games my memory of the later levels are filtered out (much like the none Sonic/Shadow levels in Sonic Adventure games) because the emphasis on speed which is the fun part of Sonic games that are demonstrated in the earlier levels are neutered for actual platform platforming, where it starts to feel like trying to play a mario game with the run button held down the whole time... Without the run and jump height advantage Mario gains for such an action.

This is incorrect outside of the first game, which is pretty much Mario after the first stage. Later games do amp the platforming, but there is also lots of speed to be had. S&K on its own is the pinnacle of the classic series level design; lots of people lump it in with 3, because: why not? I find 3 to be probably worse than 2, but both have some scummy moments: Marble Garden, Barrel, Mantises and Crabmeats. None of these should take away from the greater experience unless you're trying to make a point of it. And Sonic 1 should not be lumped in with the others really, because it's kind of a very different beast.
 
I like it because I accept it for what it is, a decent if slightly janky adventure platformer that happens to borrow sonic characters. It's definitely not a sonic game, but that's not a bad thing either.
 
Did anybody like the scoring system and mechanics in SA2 that reward you for timing, tricks and stuff like that?
I can't imagine anyone hating that system. It's absolutely perfect for Sonic. It rewards you for expressing yourself through complicated chained tricks, but it's nebulous enough that less skilled players can completely ignore that stuff if they want to.

It baffles me why Sonic Team would abandon this method of scoring, in favour of systems that either demand you speed-run, or make you be meticulous in defeating enemies/collecting rings.
 
I like it because I accept it for what it is, a decent if slightly janky adventure platformer that happens to borrow sonic characters. It's definitely not a sonic game, but that's not a bad thing either.

What even is a sonic game?

My favorite thing in the game was the diversity in gameplay. The Knuckles and Rouge exploration was fun.

Yes I am the guy that likes those levels. I like that the gems are not in the same spot. I disagree with the videos assessment.

Problem with Sonic is that everyone thinks speed = fun and that's the only thing that matters.
 
What even is a sonic game?

My favorite thing in the game was the diversity in gameplay. The Knuckles and Rouge exploration was fun.

Yes I am the guy that likes those levels. I like that the gems are not in the same spot. I disagree with the videos assessment.

Problem with Sonic is that everyone thinks speed = fun and that's the only thing that matters.

I also enjoyed with Knuckles/Rouge segments. I disagree with you on the problem with Sonic thing tho. Because speed does equal fun. And Sonic Team found away to balance it and allow you to embrace speed and have fun.

Because I do have the option to not press the X button when playing Unleashed and Generations.

But I won't.

I can't imagine anyone hating that system. It's absolutely perfect for Sonic. It rewards you for expressing yourself through complicated chained tricks, but it's nebulous enough that less skilled players can completely ignore that stuff if they want to.

It baffles me why Sonic Team would abandon this method of scoring, in favour of systems that either demand you speed-run, or make you be meticulous in defeating enemies/collecting rings.

I still await the day they do a perfect combination of SA2 and Sonic Rush scoring and tricks system to go along with the current format they have now for "Modern Sonic" pre Lost World.

I do hate the fact that nowadays their games are hella forgiving in ranking. Generations made me feel like a little bitch when I would stumble through stages terribly and still be rewarded an A or an S.
 
What even is a sonic game?

My favorite thing in the game was the diversity in gameplay. The Knuckles and Rouge exploration was fun.

Yes I am the guy that likes those levels. I like that the gems are not in the same spot. I disagree with the videos assessment.

Problem with Sonic is that everyone thinks speed = fun and that's the only thing that matters.

Man I hated those levels so much. Sonic died for me when I tried to play that game. Zero desire to play another one afterwards.

I remember liking the sonic portions. Unfortunately, no one has ever designed a mechanics based sonic around monentum like the 2d ones use to be.

Im playing through Mario world now and man, a 3d sonic focused onmechanics like that Mario game would be amazing. Instead of platforming timing, build speed and momentum through the course to get to secret areas. But somehow along the way people expect sonic to have crappy dialogue and shit to show his attitude or something. Horrible

Just like Mario 64 set the tone with the red coins, stars, etc. sonic adventure did too.... But it was the wrong damn tone. Stupid cut scenes. Tons of characters. Hold forward cours design. And now no one has the balls to try anything different
 
Man I hated those levels so much. Sonic died for me when I tried to play that game. Zero desire to play another one afterwards.

I remember liking the sonic portions. Unfortunately, no one has ever designed a mechanics based sonic around monentum like the 2d ones use to be.

Im playing through Mario world now and man, a 3d sonic focused onmechanics like that Mario game would be amazing. Instead of platforming timing, build speed and momentum through the course to get to secret areas. But somehow along the way people expect sonic to have crappy dialogue and shit to show his attitude or something. Horrible

Just like Mario 64 set the tone with the red coins, stars, etc. sonic adventure did too.... But it was the wrong damn tone. Stupid cut scenes. Tons of characters. Hold forward cours design. And now no one has the balls to try anything different

What are you talking about?
 
Sonic's music style changes pretty significantly even with the old-games when you compare Sonic 1 + 2 to CD (not to mention the significantly different approach the American/Japanese versions have) or S3&K. The original Adventure didn't really sound all that different to what had come before when you take all that in account.
 
And Sonic 3D Blast (Saturn Edition)

Tbh, I think Sonic's music has been of roughly equal quality throughout the years, regardless of what style they've gone with. It's probably the series' most consistently impressive aspect.
 
Sonic Adventure 1&2 suffers from the same. They are only good when playing Sonic/Shadow.

Exploration/hunting can be fun (i enjoyed them) but sure not for everyone.

In SA1 I never played Big/Amy/Gamma, I enjoyed the main trio a lot.

I think the level design was stellar. With a perfect mix of speed and platforming.
 
Sonic Adventure 1&2 suffers from the same. They are only good when playing Sonic/Shadow.

Exploration/hunting can be fun (i enjoyed them) but sure not for everyone.

In SA1 I never played Big/Amy/Gamma, I enjoyed the main trio a lot.

I think the level design was stellar. With a perfect mix of speed and platforming.

I thought Amy's campaign was rather decently handled in SA1 tbh.
 
I prefer the first Sonic Adventure that the second. SA2 is really overrated, the story is stupid, and I hated playing as Tails/Eggman or Knuckles/Rouge. At least in SA1 you could skip that gameplay if you didn't want to play as Amy, for example.

I agree with most of the mentions at the video, I prefered playing as Tails rather than Knuckles, but yes, that gameplay and the beep are anoying. At least the soundtrack is great.

And Sonic Adventure 3 exists, but it has another name: Sonic 2006. And we all know how bad that game is.

BTW: I don't understand why did people find the Chaos Garden great. It did not find with a Sonic game at all. If people want that, better give a game only with those things.
 
tbh the only reason I disagree with SA1>SA2 is because I even hated playing as Sonic in that game. Shit was so bad I didn't even want to bother with everyone else after I beat Sonic's campaign.

On another note, 36's eternal resentment against Chao Garden will always be my entertainment in SA threads.
 
Sonic 1 through 3 are about platforming with a quick character.
Sonic Adventure was the first series to really bring the speed and that is why people are fond of it.
I wouldn't mind bringing back Sonic Generations style and make Tails/Knuckles playable in those levels.
 
Both games were so bad and the definitive example of games I grew out of. Even though the Sonic/Shadow parts were the most fun, even those were plagued with problems.

Honestly I don't even think the 2D Sonics were that great, but they were leaps and bounds better than the 3D ones.
 
The Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 weren't good (go play them now). Honestly the Knuckles and Rouge levels were the best developed, and the camera suffered immensely from being built around Sonic's levels.

That's not to say that the treasure hunts were the most fun or not without flaws. They're just one the part of the game that didn't feel as sloppy or all over the place as the rest of the game.

If you fine tune all 3 segments of that game (speed, explore, shooting gallery) I think you have a fine game. None of them are unsalvageable. Although, the shooting galleries were a waste though lol.

I am more of a fan of Unleashed/Colors/Generations, but I wouldn't be against Tails and Knuckles returning as playable characters with their own style of play. But I think they should keep working on getting Sonic down which they've pretty much done. Lost World seemed way too experimental, but I liked how Sonic controlled in that. Way better than the Adventure games.
 
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