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Project AM2R getting legally slammed by Nintendo; file hosts hit with DMCA notices

Mar 17, 2010
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The Digital World
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is someone really trying to argue that, because nintendo hasn't made "an actual metroid game," they are abandoning the ip

i'm trying to make sure i'm not going insane or anything, so some clarification would be greatly appreciated thank you <3
 
Jun 26, 2013
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This may be true for fan films, but they did just stop the release of the fan made Battlefront 3 remake that was going to be released on Steam for free. There's precedent right there.

I think there are a lot of people here still confused about protecting Copyright vs protecting a Trademark. Yes, it is true that a Copyright can not be lost by failing to protect it like a Trademark can. The purpose of an IP holder protecting a Copyright has nothing to do with abandonment. People or companies that hold copyrights on what they consider to be valuable IP have a duty to protect their copyright in order to maintain the value of the IP. The general idea is that if you let infringing materials to exist for a long enough time, or in great enough numbers, the Copyrighted material becomes devalued in the marketplace. This can directly affect damages awarded in a situation where a copyright infringement case goes to trial.

My understanding is that EA, not Disney or LucasFillm, objected to Galaxy in Turmoil and wanted it to be shutdown, mainly because it drew attention away from Battlefront.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Jun 15, 2015
12,236
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730
Why do you think this is even an argument? Are games somehow immune to remixing? A remake of a game is extremely comparable to a remix of music or derivative artwork. Games are media just like music, art, movies. They are not magically immune to all forms of reason, fair use etc.

The problem is that he's using a bunch of assets from Metroid Zero Mission, as far as I can tell. If all the artwork used in the game was original your argument would hold more water.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Feb 6, 2016
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0
280
Interesting that they aren't sending him a Cease and Desist. Almost makes it sound like "we won't stop you from developing anything but if we find the files anywhere we will have them taken down."
Yeah it's a shame that he chose not to post links again on his site, but I can't really blame him because having to worry about the possibility of getting in trouble with a big company must be scary. But it's great that he hasn't given up on updating and improving the game.

It's not our job to care about the circumstances that compels Nintendo to protect their copyright. Most of us are not investors or employees, or have any financial stake in the industry. Their business practices which have little effect on content is none of our business. At the end of the day, no matter what law they're following, or what precedent there is, or how important it is to their business, the only thing that effects us as gamers is that Nintendo is trying to suppress a well-made fan game. I don't see how anyone can say that doesn't suck with a straight face.

Yeah pretty much. You can spin it in whatever way you want to justify Nintendo's course of action but in the end, to the average end user none of it means shit.

Even if I were to believe that they did know about the project and knowingly let it survive for a day (this is highly likely), that doesn't mean that what they did next was right. I don't think they were being held at gunpoint by investors or the evil personification of copyright laws. They had other choices and went for the most simple one that, yes, is legal and something many other companies would have chosen, but that doesn't benefit anyone else.

At the end of the day this whole thing will be remembered as that one time Nintendo didn't make a new Metroid game for almost a decade and then when a fan made something everyone were enjoying, they shut it down to then offer us a product we didn't want. Whether they were legally in the right or not.

And well, context matters, and Nintendo is struggling to sell systems and is being mainly supported by their hardcore fanbase, the same they're angering with things like these. There are high expectations for their new system and people expect a new approach for them. They need all the good will they can get but they don't compromise so they only gather more and more bad press.

So yeah as far as fans are concerned, they screwed up.
 

LincolnTunnel

Member
Jun 22, 2012
547
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My understanding is that EA, not Disney or LucasFillm, objected to Galaxy in Turmoil and wanted it to be shutdown, mainly because it drew attention away from Battlefront.
From the articles I read it seems like it was both Lucasfilm and EA. I could be wrong though, as there hasn't been anything super in depth about it released. Lucasfilm did seem much more agreeable to negotiating a licence for the game, but it seems like EA wouldn't budge.
 

Metal B

Member
Jul 2, 2007
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What about the future?
I'll continue improving and fixing AM2R privately.

Please, don't hate Nintendo for all of this. It's their legal obligation to protect their IP.
Instead of sending hate mail, get the original M2 from the eShop. Show them that 2D adventure platformers are still a thing people want.
That is the sad part.
All the guy wanted to do, was testing and advancing his skills as a programmer, while at the same time creating a tribute to a series, a specif game and their creators, he loves, respects and admires. But in the end he unwillingly redirect a lot of hate to them with his project and the action he forced Nintendo to take.

He is clearly proud of his achievement, but properly also a little disappointed, how things turned out for Nintendo.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Mar 24, 2012
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Seoul, ROK
Of note: Skywind has Bethesda's blessing. Morrowind is a heck of a lot more current than Metroid 2 is as well. Both are adaptations rather than direct copies, too.
Does Bethesda still actively promote Morrowind? Nintendo just had Metroid 2 on MyNintendo last month. Different circumstances for different companies.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Mar 24, 2012
8,873
2
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Seoul, ROK
Nah a real win/win would be Nintendo allowing the developer to port the game to Wii U and sell it so both the dev and Nintendo get a cut, much like how Valve allows the developers of the Half Life remake Black Mesa sell it on Steam.

This is just Nintendo being a bully to their fans, which is their typical MO.
Bully? Really? Lol.

If they were being asses they'd had ended this long before now and never allowed it to release. And you know what? If they had done that they'd be well within their rights and would not have been bullies.

In school, if you caught someone copying your answers and stopped them are you a bully? Hell no. The leaps of logic being taken here are incredible. You act like if a company doesn't want someone stealing their shit, they are bullies. It really is that simple. Who gives a damn if other companies allow it, that doesn't somehow make those that don't wrong. It in no way makes them bullies.

Morrorwind joined the catalogue of GOG some months ago.
GoG is the DRM free afterlife where old games go to die when the IP holder doesn't really care anymore.
 

Mariolee

Member
May 1, 2012
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is someone really trying to argue that, because nintendo hasn't made "an actual metroid game," they are abandoning the ip

i'm trying to make sure i'm not going insane or anything, so some clarification would be greatly appreciated thank you <3

NeoGAF only deals in extremes.

Like a Sith.
 

EatinOlives

Member
Oct 23, 2011
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Of course the creator is not gonna pick a fight with Nintendo, since he still wants to keep working on it and would rather he be in their good graces.

Fans can still think whatever they want to think independently of the blog post (opinion-wise).
 

Metal B

Member
Jul 2, 2007
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Of course the creator is not gonna pick a fight with Nintendo, since he still wants to keep working on it and would rather he be in their good graces.
If this was ever an concern for him, then he would have never created and release the fan-game in the first place.

Fans can still think whatever they want to think independently of the blog post (opinion-wise).
It's the "fans", who make a bigger thing out of it against the creator's intention (who should be the most damaged subject in this situation) and transforming his tribute into a weapon against Nintendo, their handling of the series and IP laws in general.
 

EatinOlives

Member
Oct 23, 2011
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Then he should never created and release the fan-game in the first place.


It's the "fans", who make a bigger thing out of it against the creator's intention (who should be the most damaged subject in this situation) and transforming his tribute into a weapon against Nintendo, their handling of the series and IP laws in general.

I'm not condoning the incredibly obtuse discussion as to whether or not Nintendo has the legal ability to issue the take-down. Obviously they have the ability.

But if they dislike the direction Nintendo is choosing to go with the Metroid franchise they have every right to.
 

Kyzer

Banned
Jan 7, 2009
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It's not our job to care about the circumstances that compels Nintendo to protect their copyright. Most of us are not investors or employees, or have any financial stake in the industry. Their business practices which have little effect on content is none of our business. At the end of the day, no matter what law they're following, or what precedent there is, or how important it is to their business, the only thing that effects us as gamers is that Nintendo is trying to suppress a well-made fan game. I don't see how anyone can say that doesn't suck with a straight face.

Everybody agrees it sucks.

I disagree with you that we shouldn't care about this stuff, if that was the case we could all openly support piracy and bootlegging too because its good for us. Enforcing anti-piracy laws is "bad for fans" too...
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Jan 16, 2009
12,257
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I just finished this and it was really touching to see the credits scroll and have the original Metroid II staff credited in it as well.
 

OryoN

Member
Aug 10, 2004
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Bully? Really? Lol.

If they were being asses they'd had ended this long before now and never allowed it to release. And you know what? If they had done that they'd be well within their rights and would not have been bullies.

In school, if you caught someone copying your answers and stopped them are you a bully? Hell no. The leaps of logic being taken here are incredible. You act like if a company doesn't want someone stealing their shit, they are bullies. It really is that simple. Who gives a damn if other companies allow it, that doesn't somehow make those that don't wrong. It in no way makes them bullies.

GTFO of here with your perfectly logical and sensible post! Oh and where the hell is your pitchfork and "f#&@ Nintendo" t-shirt?!
 

Metal B

Member
Jul 2, 2007
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I'm not condoning the incredibly obtuse discussion as to whether or not Nintendo has the legal ability to issue the take-down. Obviously they have the ability.

But if they dislike the direction Nintendo is choosing to go with the Metroid franchise they have every right to.
I agree with you.
The problem is the narrative, which some people try to push this story towards. From Nintendo being jealous, because they are incompetent in comparison to some novice hobby programmer, to Nintendo just hating the Metroid franchise and all of its fans.
 

PtM

Banned
Jan 7, 2015
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I agree with you.
The problem is the narrative, which some people try to push this story towards. From Nintendo being jealous, because they are incompetent in comparison to some novice hobby programmer, to Nintendo just hating the Metroid franchise and all of its fans.
Also Nintendo being gracious for waiting until after the release with the DMCA.
 

Kyzer

Banned
Jan 7, 2009
11,985
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As of today Nintendo has yet to even send a cease and desist to the creator , he took it down himself and asked people to understand this whole scenario and stop backslashing at Nintendo , because he knew exactly what could happen since day 1, and yet...

If you explain the DMCA, the logic behind it, the logic behind ip protection, behind Nintendo choosing which projects to take down and where, and acknowledging that bootlegs passionate fan tributes are still illegal makes you a Nintendo fanboy who cares more about corporations than fans.

Because "look at the other times it happened and it was awesome" and "it would be great if Nintendo let it slide tho"

Clearly the only acceptable logic here unless you are an ass kissing corporate apologist is that Nintendo are out of touch evil bullies who don't care about their fans and have abandoned Metroid anyways.
 

Kaisos

Member
Feb 16, 2014
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I agree with you.
The problem is the narrative, which some people try to push this story towards. From Nintendo being jealous, because they are incompetent in comparison to some novice hobby programmer, to Nintendo just hating the Metroid franchise and all of its fans.

To be fair, when a fanbase reacts the way Metroid's did to Federation Force's announcement, hating them is sort of understandable.
 

Durante

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Oct 1, 2006
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
They have every legal right to pursue this course of action. You'll notice I never said otherwise. Heck, you'll notice I said just that in my first post in this thread.

My point was and is, they don't have to follow this course of action. And I think it's the wrong move to make to shut down a labor of love from one of your fans. I personally think Nintendo would *benefit* from being more open to such things, as I'm sure Disney benefit from letting Star Wars fan films and games etc exist (hell encouraging them even).
Well said.

There's no doubt that they are within their legal rights, but just because you can legally do something doesn't mean that you have to -- and as the many examples discussed in this thread show, for communicative and open companies there are a lot more productive ways to deal with fan creations like this (especially if they are of such high quality).
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Mar 6, 2008
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The Satellite of Love
I'm not arguing that AM2R is not tasteful or professionally done. I just wanted to get an acknowledgement that allowing every single fan game no matter what as long as it isn't being sold for a profit isn't a good idea. So you agree with that.

No. Again, your "Mario fan game with violent and sexualized GTA elements" example is ridiculous and doesn't fit with the discussion at all because that type of game would be a blatant misuse of the IP's established brand unlike AM2R which is simply trying to recreate and update the experience of playing Metroid 2. Really don't think that needs to be explained twice as it's pretty self evident to anyone not trying to grasp at straws.
 

Kyzer

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Jan 7, 2009
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Nope. Again, your "Mario fan game with violent and sexualized GTA elements" example is ridiculous and doesn't fit with the discussion at all because that type of game would be a blatant misuse of the IP's established brand unlike AM2R which is simply trying to recreate and update the experience of playing Metroid 2. Really don't think that needs to be explained twice as it's pretty self evident to anyone not trying to grasp at straws.

Technically a mario with violence and sex and GTA mechanics would be less copyright infringement than an HD remake. lol
 

ShowDog

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May 24, 2005
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Has anyone here ever worked with a legal counsel? They want to build a legal bomb shelter against everything. If everyone who actually makes decisions, products and partnerships said "yes" to their lawyers all the time nothing would ever get done, no one would ever come to agreement and lawyers billable hours would skyrocket even further than the stratosphere they currently reside in.

That's their job, and they interpret the law to benefit themselves (more billable hours) and protect their clients to such an overwhelming degree that, should everything go completely tits up in the most unimaginable way possible, it doesn't come back on the lawyers for providing counsel that didn't protect their clients.

Nintendo didn't HAVE to do this, despite what their lawyers say, because plenty of other companies DON'T do this and it hasn't come back to ruin them. They CAN do it and they did, and they have a legal right to. Good for them, the jerks.
 

Athreous

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Jun 2, 2013
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Somewhere only we know =D
as an artist and business owner I support protecting copyrights and intellectual property.

I dont just view things as napster era consumer lol

Its not necessarily that business is business and fuck fans, its that I understand why things are the way they are

Actually I understand you, I was just kidding...

But yeah, it's their right to put the game down
 

pizzaparty

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Jul 2, 2015
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GTA Mario could at least be satirical, maybe. That's a better shot at fair use than Metroid 2 with modern 2d Metroid graphics.

Satire alone has not been found to fall within the protection of fair use alone. There's a 9th Circuit case called Dr.Seuss Enterprises v. Penguin Books USA which discusses this.
 

Metal B

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Jul 2, 2007
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Satire alone has not been found to fall within the protection of fair use alone. There's a 9th Circuit case called Dr.Seuss Enterprises v. Penguin Books USA which discusses this.
This article about the case was actually very interesting. Using the logic on this case on video games, makes it really hard to create a parody based alone on gameplay. A "GTA Mario" would need to mix the gameplay of both genres (platformer and sandbox/shooter) and still had the problem to nail down, what it actually want to parodies. Simply putting Mario in a GTA World or a GTA character in a Mario World would not be falling under fair use.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Mar 6, 2008
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Has anyone here ever worked with a legal counsel? They want to build a legal bomb shelter against everything. If everyone who actually makes decisions, products and partnerships said "yes" to their lawyers all the time nothing would ever get done, no one would ever come to agreement and lawyers billable hours would skyrocket even further than the stratosphere they currently reside in.

That's their job, and they interpret the law to benefit themselves (more billable hours) and protect their clients to such an overwhelming degree that, should everything go completely tits up in the most unimaginable way possible, it doesn't come back on the lawyers for providing counsel that didn't protect their clients.

Very good point, this really does happen with lawyers and as a bit of a side topic, I always wondered if NOA's lawyers were pulling the "legal bomb shelter" routine during the years when folks were waiting for Earthbound to finally be released on VC due to all the little elements in the game people theorized their legal might have been harping on.
 

spazchicken

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Jan 10, 2011
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www.adversarygames.com
There is an insane amount more involved than this. It's not so simple.

But it's not impossible. It's their product. They make the rules of what can and cannot be done and it can't be more involved than making a whole game from start to finish, plus everything else that comes along with that process.

It would have been a win for Nintendo any way you look at it.
 

Maedhros

Member
Apr 16, 2010
6,680
0
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As of today Nintendo has yet to even send a cease and desist to the creator , he took it down himself and asked people to understand this whole scenario and stop backslashing at Nintendo , because he knew exactly what could happen since day 1, and yet...

If you explain the DMCA, the logic behind it, the logic behind ip protection, behind Nintendo choosing which projects to take down and where, and acknowledging that bootlegs passionate fan tributes are still illegal makes you a Nintendo fanboy who cares more about corporations than fans.

Because "look at the other times it happened and it was awesome" and "it would be great if Nintendo let it slide tho"

Clearly the only acceptable logic here unless you are an ass kissing corporate apologist is that Nintendo are out of touch evil bullies who don't care about their fans and have abandoned Metroid anyways.

Basically, yes.

Look at the lenghts you are reaching to defend your argument and say that they handled it well...
 

Bluth54

Member
Feb 5, 2008
8,049
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Bully? Really? Lol.

If they were being asses they'd had ended this long before now and never allowed it to release. And you know what? If they had done that they'd be well within their rights and would not have been bullies.

In school, if you caught someone copying your answers and stopped them are you a bully? Hell no. The leaps of logic being taken here are incredible. You act like if a company doesn't want someone stealing their shit, they are bullies. It really is that simple. Who gives a damn if other companies allow it, that doesn't somehow make those that don't wrong. It in no way makes them bullies.


GoG is the DRM free afterlife where old games go to die when the IP holder doesn't really care anymore.
The leaps in logic by Nintendo's defenders taken here are incredible. Please show me a single time that a company not taking down a free fan project has lead to another company successfully winning an argument in court that anyone can use that IP.
 

Ghost_Messiah

Member
Jan 17, 2014
2,470
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425
I think ultimately the primary reason this was specifically targeted whilst the thousands of other Nintendo fangames out there remain unaffected is because this is a remake of Metroid II i.e. a game to which the original is currently available for sale. I think if AM2R were a more original fangame or something other than a direct Metroid II remake then he may have gotten away with it. As it stands his remake is essentially a superior version of Metroid II which does make it a direct threat to sales of the real Metroid II however little those sales may currently be. He must have known the risks once he started the project and must have always known this was a probable and highly likely possibility.

It's still a shame and I sincerely hope he can continue working on this and provide updates. It'd be a shame to see development halted.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Mar 24, 2012
8,873
2
0
Seoul, ROK
The leaps in logic by Nintendo's defenders taken here are incredible. Please show me a single time that a company not taking down a free fan project has lead to another company successfully winning an argument in court that anyone can use that IP.
I never said it did. Why would I argue a point I never made?
 
May 18, 2011
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is someone really trying to argue that, because nintendo hasn't made "an actual metroid game," they are abandoning the ip

i'm trying to make sure i'm not going insane or anything, so some clarification would be greatly appreciated thank you <3


Damn.
I didn't see Disney make another Aladdin movie for quite some years. They're clearly abandoning that IP, man. Obviously. I mean, it's been years, so that means it's an abandoned IP, right?

Jesus fuck, man. People and logic. Sometimes they just don't work together.
 

Green Mamba

Member
Dec 31, 2008
8,717
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Damn.
I didn't see Disney make another Aladdin movie for quite some years. They're clearly abandoning that IP, man. Obviously. I mean, it's been years, so that means it's an abandoned IP, right?

Jesus fuck, man. People and logic. Sometimes they just don't work together.
A funny comparison, that, considering Alladin is actually public domain and how Disney has had a big hand in making our copyright and trademark laws into the laughable mockeries they are today
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
A funny comparison, that, considering Alladin is actually public domain and how Disney has had a big hand in making our copyright and trademark laws into the laughable mockeries they are today

Exactly what I thought. This post is intentionally pretty ironic.
 
May 18, 2011
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A funny comparison, that, considering Alladin is actually public domain and how Disney has had a big hand in making our copyright and trademark laws into the laughable mockeries they are today

Replace it with (whoever holds that movie license) and The Godfather, then. Whatever. It's stupid to even think that, just because a franchise hasn't been touched in a few years (which in the case of Metroid is obviously untrue to begin with) it automatically means that an IP is abandoned. It is not.
Metroid as an IP isn't even abandoned, even if that means that we get Federation Force instead of a new 2D Metroid game from Nintendo themselves.
There are so many errors in this logic that it doesn't just hurt my brain, it melts it and flows out of my ears. It's ridiculous.
 

NegativeCero

Banned
Apr 21, 2013
1,401
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NY
This wasn't on my radar until Nintendo started taking down file hosts. Luckily I was able to find a download. It's unfortunate, but I can see Nintendo's perspective.
 

Mael

Member
Oct 23, 2009
23,428
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France
Haven't Nintendo made a fan project outreach program recently?
Or is that just for Japan?
Shame it couldn't have been part of that.
Them the breaks, couldn't be helped if we didn't want to have 14553 other projects using the IP illegally.
Should have provided an alt version with placeholder assets :/
 

Nostremitus

Member
Mar 24, 2012
8,873
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Seoul, ROK
Quick question...


The file hosts who were contacted by Nintendo...


Do they make revenue off ads tied to those downloads?

If so, they were profiting from Nintendo's IP.

Again, not talking about the creator, imtalking about the file hosts.