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[Dead]

Star Trek is indeed not a great script, though I still like it over Avatar as I find the character interaction more genuine and entertaining. I think a number of Pixar films have great scripts as well.

And obviously, the original Alien had a very nice script.

I dont really think Trek does a single thing better than Avatar, (cept maybe the music, but even then thats just the music itself, not the use of it in the film) and in general I think Camerons strength in regards to Avatar, and his entire filmography, is the genuine nature of the characters and their interactions. I think most modern blockbusters are the exact opposite of genuine and too often fall too closely on the side of cynicism. They have no heart at all, especially most of the comic stuff.

The Incredibles?

Yeah that's another one. For some reason I always disassociate CG family flicks from the discussion of blockbusters, as I always think of live action stuff, but they're the same thing really.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I'm getting very close to my bi-annual Avatar rewatch. After which I usually watch it two or three more times in the couple of weeks following.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Bourne Legacy
Skyfall
Prometheus

Only three movies where I'll step foot into a theatre, and I haven't been to the movie theatre in a year.

 

[Dead]

Bourne Legacy
Skyfall
Prometheus

Only three movies where I'll step foot into a theatre, and I haven't been to the movie theatre in a year.

Don't forget Cloud Atlas

 

[we.are.the.armada]

from the teaser earlier today

so it's definitely something that happens outside

This is amazing. Who's arm is this? Why are they wearing space armor? Why is there a tentacle going in or coming out?

 

[duckroll]

Don't forget Cloud Atlas

After reading the book, I'm really curious as to how the movie will not be an utter piece of cinematic shit. It will be groundbreaking and unorthodox no doubt, but I'm really not sure if it can be good.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Bourne Legacy
Skyfall
Prometheus

Only three movies where I'll step foot into a theatre, and I haven't been to the movie theatre in a year.

You're crazy.

I will be there on day one for the following:

Prometheus
The Hobbit
Skyfall
The Dark Knight Rises
Gravity
Cloud Atlas
Django Unchained
Lincoln

 

[Dead]

After reading the book, I'm really curious as to how the movie will not be an utter piece of cinematic shit. It will be groundbreaking and unorthodox no doubt, but I'm really not sure if it can be good.

The filming process seems nuts. Its going to be either fucking amazing, or a total catastrophe. No in-between!

Will your body be ready for another trainwreck after AO though??

 

[Branduil]

I dont really think Trek does a single thing better than Avatar, (cept maybe the music, but even then thats just the music itself, not the use of it in the film) and in general I think Camerons strength in regards to Avatar, and his entire filmography, is the genuine nature of the characters and their interactions. I think most modern blockbusters are the exact opposite of genuine and too often fall too closely on the side of cynicism. They have no heart at all, especially most of the comic stuff.

I don't find anything genuine at all in Cameron's recent scripts. By genuine, I mean the characters and their interactions seem as believable as if you put real people into the setting of the movie. The characters in Avatar are walking stereotypes; they even include the mascot queen of stupid, annoying cardboard characters, Michelle Rodriguez.

 

[duckroll]

The filming process seems nuts. Its going to be either fucking amazing, or a total catastrophe. No in-between!

I just don't see how it can be fucking amazing though. The book is basically a narrative gimmick which only works well in written form. Aside from the gimmick, I don't think the stories in the actual book are particularly great. Some are more interesting than others, and they're all not particularly amazing. I also have issues with the central theme and how it is expressed.

For an amazing movie to come out of it, it would need to be a complete reworking of the source material, retaining what is interesting and what works, and throwing everything else away. Like what Nolan did with The Prestige. But based on everything we know from the production, they're doing the exact opposite. It looks to be extremely faithful to the book, and taking the narrative gimmick to a whole new level.

I don't feel that will make a good movie at all. Interesting in terms of production and technical deconstruction? Sure. Interesting in terms of being a solid movie with great emotional and thematic value? Dunno, probably not.

 

[Dead]

I just don't see how it can be fucking amazing though. The book is basically a narrative gimmick which only works well in written form. Aside from the gimmick, I don't think the stories in the actual book are particularly great. Some are more interesting than others, and they're all not particularly amazing. I also have issues with the central theme and how it is expressed.

For an amazing movie to come out of it, it would need to be a complete reworking of the source material, retaining what is interesting and what works, and throwing everything else away. Like what Nolan did with The Prestige. But based on everything we know from the production, they're doing the exact opposite. It looks to be extremely faithful to the book, and taking the narrative gimmick to a whole new level.

I don't feel that will make a good movie at all. Interesting in terms of production and technical deconstruction? Sure. Interesting in terms of being a solid movie with great emotional and thematic value? Dunno, probably not.

Speed Racer wasn't an amazing show!

 

[Dead]

I don't find anything genuine at all in Cameron's recent scripts. By genuine, I mean the characters and their interactions seem as believable as if you put real people into the setting of the movie. The characters in Avatar are walking stereotypes; they even include the mascot queen of stupid, annoying cardboard characters, Michelle Rodriguez.

I mean really, lets just disagree to disagree.

Its kinda like how some people like SHAFT anime for some reason, and yet I find most of it to be only a tad less offensive than scat porn

 

[Koodo]

The trailers are exquisite, but after looking at The Hunger Games building a world of hype with trailers that don't show anything, I can't help but feel a bit disappointed that this trailer has spoiled so many "wow" moments.


Do we know of any movies that will have the US trailer attached to them?

 

[Branduil]

I mean really, lets just disagree to disagree.

Its kinda like how some people like SHAFT anime for some reason, and yet I find most of it to be only a tad less offensive than scat porn

Does Quarritch seems like a real person to you? Or the CEO dude? It's pretty convenient how every person on one side is a complete douchebag with zero redeeming characteristics while every character on the other side is a thoughtful and pure soul who mourns the leaves when they fall.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Does Quarritch seems like a real person to you? Or the CEO dude? It's pretty convenient how every person on one side is a complete douchebag with zero redeeming characteristics while every character on the other side is a thoughtful and pure soul who mourns the leaves when they fall.

You really ought to see the scenes that were cut from the film that are available on the extended edition. And Quaritch is a sociopath. I appreciate the little things about him that are easy to glance over, like his respect for his men and his militant idea of loyalty to them and them to him.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Actually putting thought and reasoning behind everything in a movie rather than just throwing shit at the screen incoherently = stupidly shitty now? Whats funny is that 95% of the rest of the hollywood shit that gets popular is way worse in all forms of execution and content, yet it gets not even half the hate. 3 Billion dollahs does a lot to instigate a hard on for hate apparently.

I wouldn't call any modern Hollywood movie actually clever or mildly fulfilling, actually.

Avatar had an incredible visual presentation and a passible story, but you just don't call something unobtanium and expect not to make at least some logical gears come crashing to a sudden halt.

That's all. Oh, and the whole "nature that isn't actually nature" thing. Pandora is a machine, so the background stuff (PR) about the movie being environment related just made it look silly, even when it didn't have to.

I can actually separate between 'silly plot' and liking a movie on aesthetic grounds, which is what Avatar is.


I'm not saying it's transformers 2 or 3, which by all means should be wiped from the slate of history and time itself.

Neither of them can measure up in terms of plot to the 5000 dollar project known as Primer, so budget says nothing to me as a viewer. Why should I even care about such a thing?
If Prometheus is a huge pile of shit, I'll be the first to tell as well. I'm pretty hopefully I won't have to keep that promise though.

 

[Branduil]

You really ought to see the scenes that were cut from the film that are available on the extended edition.

Well, whatever they were, weren't important enough to be in the theatrical cut. If they fundamentally alter the characterization, they probably shouldn't have been cut.

 

[duckroll]

Speed Racer wasn't an amazing show!

Speed Racer was a beautiful piece of shit. That's what it was. Great to look at, impossible for me to actually enjoy. Way too long, way too erratic.

Well, whatever they were, weren't important enough to be in the theatrical cut. If they fundamentally alter the characterization, they probably shouldn't have been cut.

What about Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[Dead]

Does Quarritch seems like a real person to you? Or the CEO dude? It's pretty convenient how every person on one side is a complete douchebag with zero redeeming characteristics while every character on the other side is a thoughtful and pure soul who mourns the leaves when they fall.

In regards to the villains, they are exaggerated, but I don't think the mentality of those characters is pulled out of thin air at all.

As far as the protagonists, on the human side, I don't recall them weeping when leaves fell, but rather when people were killed, pretty outrageous trait I guess. As far as the Navi they were dirtied up in the extended cut, so I am mostly fine with them as they are to be honest. The black and white complaint is one of the things that the extended cut fixes to an extent.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I wouldn't call any modern Hollywood movie actually clever or mildly fulfilling, actually.

Avatar had an incredible visual presentation and a passible story, but you just don't call something unobtanium and expect not to make at least some logical gears come crashing to a sudden halt.

That's all. Oh, and the whole "nature that isn't actually nature" thing. Pandora is a machine, so the background stuff (PR) about the movie being environment related just made it look silly, even when it didn't have to.

I can actually separate between 'silly plot' and liking a movie on aesthetic grounds, which is what Avatar is.


I'm not saying it's transformers 2 or 3, which by all means should be wiped from the slate of history and time itself.

Neither of them can measure up in terms of plot to the 5000 dollar project known as Primer, so budget says nothing to me as a viewer. Why should I even care about such a thing?
If Prometheus is a huge pile of shit, I'll be the first to tell as well. I'm pretty hopefully I won't have to keep that promise though.

You look pretty silly yourself calling a movie you obviously didn't understand silly. It isn't a machine. It is an bio-organism with highly evolved sensory networks. How is it not 'nature'?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well, whatever they were, weren't important enough to be in the theatrical cut. If they fundamentally alter the characterization, they probably shouldn't have been cut.

No argument there. A lot of great material was lopped out; even a few minutes of material from the extended editions make a significant difference.

 

[duckroll]

I'm not saying it's transformers 2 or 3, which by all means should be wiped from the slate of history and time itself.

You take that back. Leave my giant robots alone!

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Well, whatever they were, weren't important enough to be in the theatrical cut. If they fundamentally alter the characterization, they probably shouldn't have been cut.

They shouldn't have been cut. But as you know, insanely expensive movie with an already long run time and many scenes that - given the nature of the film, would have also cost many more millions of dollars.

 

[Dead]

Speed Racer was a beautiful piece of shit. That's what it was. Great to look at, impossible for me to actually enjoy. Way too long, way too erratic.

I thought we were bros

 

[duckroll]

They shouldn't have been cut. But as you know, insanely expensive movie with an already long run time and many scenes that - given the nature of the film, would have also cost many more millions of dollars.

None of this is really true imo. It all came down to the IMAX runtime cap when we're talking about Avatar.

I thought we were bros

I can't deal with all the AO shit you guys throw at me. I am a hollow shell, unable to feel anything now.

 

[Technosteve]

So I rewatched alien, the planet they land on is the planet Prometheus is set on, is it also the planet Aliens is set on?

 

[Dan]

That's all. Oh, and the whole "nature that isn't actually nature" thing. Pandora is a machine, so the background stuff (PR) about the movie being environment related just made it look silly, even when it didn't have to.

Eh. The real reason it's incredibly silly is that the Navi's version of living with nature is physically raping and controlling animals. That dragon scene is just so full of rape language that it's not even funny. Now that's some crazy bullshit.

 

[Dead]

I can't deal with all the AO shit you guys throw at me. I am a hollow shell, unable to feel anything now.

Im still optimistic actually lol. In fact I plan to make an OT for when it starts!

 

[Jamesways]

So... Lindelof is talentless hack and this movie will be complete garbage because he's involoved.

Great, thanks for saving me the money. I've been waiting for Scott to revist this franchise for years, but I'm glad I know that. I'll steer clear.

And everything's ripped off from Avatar. Cool.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

None of this is really true imo. It all came down to the IMAX runtime cap when we're talking about Avatar.

Some of that factored into it, yes. But you have to understand that the best cut of Avatar would probably be around 3 hours and 35m. Only 25 minutes worth of the deleted scenes were rightly cut.

Eh. The real reason it's incredibly silly is that the Navi's version of living with nature is physically raping and controlling animals. That dragon scene is just so full of rape language that it's not even funny. Now that's some crazy bullshit.

If the animals didn't want to be raped, they would cover up their qeues. Those ikrans and dire-horsies were begging for it.

 

[duckroll]

Some of that factored into it, yes. But you have to understand that the best cut of Avatar would probably be around 3 hours and 35m. Only 25 minutes worth of the deleted scenes were rightly cut.

My point is that regardless, Cameron was basically limited by the commercial reality of the distribution system which he favors. If they were willing to cut IMAX out of the equation, considering how much the movie already cost and all the expectations riding on it, he could have cut a lot less.

 

[Branduil]

What about Kingdom of Heaven?

Cameron doesn't have enough clout to release the cut he wants in theaters?

In regards to the villains, they are exaggerated, but I don't think the mentality of those characters is pulled out of thin air at all.

As far as the protagonists, on the human side, I don't recall them weeping when leaves fell, but rather when people were killed, pretty outrageous trait I guess. As far as the Navi they were dirtied up in the extended cut, so I am mostly fine with them as they are to be honest. The black and white complaint is one of the things that the extended cut fixes to an extent.

My primary problem with Cameron's recent writing is that he actually seems to believe the stories he's writing speak meaningfully to anything. They aren't, they're just dumb popcorn flicks. There's not anything necessarily wrong with dumb popcorn flicks, but a dumb popcorn flick which thinks it's smart is something I find insulting. He's metaphorically assaulting me with a giant hammer.

Eh. The real reason it's incredibly silly is that the Navi's version of living with nature is physically raping and controlling animals. That dragon scene is just so full of rape language that it's not even funny. Now that's some crazy bullshit.

You do actually bring up a valid point: in order to make his point about living with nature, Cameron has to invent a magical world hive-mind that has no applicability to our reality. It's basically a fantastic aesop.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

You look pretty silly yourself calling a movie you obviously didn't understand silly. It isn't a machine. It is an organism with neural networks.

it's techno-animism, which goes beyond the scope of this particular movie (sociological theory), but it expresses nature through the specific metaphor of a machine.
The 'nature' of this movie has nothing to do with any realistic representation of the concept of nature. It's rules in terms of fiction are that of the interface (which is a machine metaphor by default) and the Central Processing Unit, which is even called a deity.
Such things do not exist within actual nature. That is what I was referring to.

No doubt this will also be related to 'the twist' for the sequels, allowing Earth to be saved or something. Yay.

Eh. The real reason it's incredibly silly is that the Navi's version of living with nature is physically raping and controlling animals. That dragon scene is just so full of rape language that it's not even funny. Now that's some crazy bullshit.

Well, that's the interface. "rape" is going a bit far, imo.

You take that back. Leave my giant robots alone!

You get to keep the first movie. That's more than enough.


But this is all really offtopic, so I'll drop it.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

My point is that regardless, Cameron was basically limited by the commercial reality of the distribution system which he favors. If they were willing to cut IMAX out of the equation, considering how much the movie already cost and all the expectations riding on it, he could have cut a lot less.

Perhaps. But the single most important scene that was cut (The Dream Hunt) went for a good 16 minutes and would have cost at least an extra $15m by itself.

 

[duckroll]

Perhaps. But the single most important scene that was cut (The Dream Hunt) went for a good 16 minutes and would have cost at least an extra $15m by itself.

Then maybe there is an argument there that he should not be championing technology at the cost of good storytelling. If making a dramatic scene which would improve the story will cost 15 million dollars, I think there's something wrong there with the entire equation. What we end up with is a weaker narrative, and less developed characters, but much better visuals and great animation. Sounds familiar? Sounds like a similar critique thrown at videogames.

 

[Dan]

If the animals didn't want to be raped, they would cover up their qeues. Those ikrans and dire-horsies were begging for it.

You joke, but that sequence did in fact explicitly blame the dragon and claim that it was asking for it. Fucking outrageous.

 

[Dead]

Cameron doesn't have enough clout to release the cut he wants in theaters?

Not only did FOX not greenlight Avatar at first (only did they do so after Cameron started to shop it around to other studios, Disney in particular) but they had such little faith in it that they sold off a large chunk of the distribution costs to other smaller companies in order to reduce their losses late in the game. I dont think he had the clout to release a 200 minute blue movie no.

My primary problem with Cameron's recent writing is that he actually seems to believe the stories he's writing speak meaningfully to anything. They aren't, they're just dumb popcorn flicks. There's not anything necessarily wrong with dumb popcorn flicks, but a dumb popcorn flick which thinks it's smart is something I find insulting. He's metaphorically assaulting me with a giant hammer.

Thats pretty much how I feel about another current director.

 

[Setre]

Just watched the trailer, I know late to the party, and oh my God! So good. Can't. Fucking. Wait.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

Then maybe there is an argument there that he should not be championing technology at the cost of good storytelling. If making a dramatic scene which would improve the story will cost 15 million dollars, I think there's something wrong there with the entire equation. What we end up with is a weaker narrative, and less developed characters, but much better visuals and great animation. Sounds familiar? Sounds like a similar critique thrown at videogames.

I'm pretty sure that he has always championed the exact opposite of this. Do you know what the Dream Hunt scene entailed?

You joke, but that sequence did in fact explicitly blame the dragon and claim that it was asking for it. Fucking outrageous.

'How will I know if he wants me to rape him?'
'He will try to defend himself and kill you.'

*Banshee tries to get Jake to back off*

'Okay, let's dance!'
*rapes Banshee*

Watching Avatar will never be the same.

 

[Jimothy]

You joke, but that sequence did in fact explicitly blame the dragon and claim that it was asking for it. Fucking outrageous.

I've honestly never thought about this, but it actually makes a lot of sense. Pandora's animals are the Na'vi's battered housewives.

 

[duckroll]

Cameron doesn't have enough clout to release the cut he wants in theaters?

He does, and like I pointed out, his decision was to sacrifice the quality of the narrative in favor of having it play in the most number of screens as possible (especially the most expensive ones) because it is was also his fiscal responsibility to make back the shitloads of money invested by the distributor into his movie.

I'm simply saying that there is also a good argument to be made that the theatrical cut can be improved with extended/revised home video releases. Just because he "should" have left something in, doesn't mean that putting it back into an different release later on diminishes the value of the superior cut when it is released.

 

[duckroll]

I'm pretty sure that he has always championed the exact opposite of this. Do you know what the Dream Hunt scene entailed?

From what I recall reading about, it involved snorting alien coke, getting high, and killing some vision quest beast. Because hitting the audience over the head with a hammer about how these "natives" are like wild native American tribes wasn't enough the first 10 times they tried to make that point. Lulz.

 

[Branduil]

Not only did FOX not greenlight Avatar at first (only did they do so after Cameron started to shop it around to other studios, Disney in particular) but they had such little faith in it that they sold off a large chunk of the distribution costs to other smaller companies in order to reduce their losses late in the game. I dont think he had the clout to release a 200 minute blue movie no.

Thats pretty much how I feel about another current director.

Are you talking about Nolan?

He does, and like I pointed out, his decision was to sacrifice the quality of the narrative in favor of having it play in the most number of screens as possible (especially the most expensive ones) because it is was also his fiscal responsibility to make back the shitloads of money invested by the distributor into his movie.

I'm simply saying that there is also a good argument to be made that the theatrical cut can be improved with extended/revised home video releases. Just because he "should" have left something in, doesn't mean that putting it back into an different release later on diminishes the value of the superior cut when it is released.

Well, sure. I'm just saying that something that fundamentally alters the characterization of a vital character should be in all versions.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

He does, and like I pointed out, his decision was to sacrifice the quality of the narrative in favor of having it play in the most number of screens as possible (especially the most expensive ones) because it is was also his fiscal responsibility to make back the shitloads of money invested by the distributor into his movie.

I'm simply saying that there is also a good argument to be made that the theatrical cut can be improved with extended/revised home video releases. Just because he "should" have left something in, doesn't mean that putting it back into an different release later on diminishes the value of the superior cut when it is released.

Except that once Avatar made a whole lot of bank, FOX did pony up the money to add an extra 20 minutes of cut scenes into the extended cut..have you not seen it?

It's just that some scenes would have cost an inordinate amount of money for the sake of a specialty home release. You would think ponying up an extra $20m or so is pretty good.

From what I recall reading about, it involved snorting alien coke, getting high, and killing some vision quest beast. Because hitting the audience over the head with a hammer about how these "natives" are like wild native American tribes wasn't enough the first 10 times they tried to make that point. Lulz.

Mmm...not quite. It basically had Jake ingest some alien poison, go to the brink of death, go on a 2001-type hallucinatory journey and see hints of his destiny and hints that Pandora had been calling out to him all his life (it gave a little insight into the opening line and image of the misty forest 'I always had these dreams of flying.'

 

[Dan]

'How will I know if he wants me to rape him?'
'He will try to defend himself and kill you.'

*Banshee tries to get Jake to back off*

'Okay, let's dance!'
*rapes Banshee*

Watching Avatar will never be the same.

Wasn't eye contact a factor as well? It was pretty overt on the first viewing.

 

[duckroll]

Well, sure. I'm just saying that something that fundamentally alters the characterization of a vital character should be in all versions.

And again, my response is: What about Kingdom of Heaven? Or the Abyss? Hey that's ANOTHER Cameron film! Sometimes it's simply not possible and if you have to cut something you're going to lose stuff. The decision is often made in these cases to lose all of one portion, rather than have it feel half-baked. Then that entire portion can be restored in a future release and give completely new perspective to the film.

 

[Dead]

From what I recall reading about, it involved snorting alien coke, getting high, and killing some vision quest beast. Because hitting the audience over the head with a hammer about how these "natives" are like wild native American tribes wasn't enough the first 10 times they tried to make that point. Lulz.

Its supposed to be an Ayahuasca trip. So yeah, obvious native influence again.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

Watching Avatar will never be the same.

well that we certainly agree on.

Although Robot Chicken did parody Avatar as a rape thing a while back. So there was that.
kinda forgot about it though.

 

[duckroll]

Except that once Avatar made a whole lot of bank, FOX did pony up the money to add an extra 20 minutes of cut scenes into the extended cut..have you not seen it?

It's just that some scenes would have cost an inordinate amount of money for the sake of a specialty home release. You would think ponying up an extra $20m or so is pretty good.

I'm sorry, but I'm kinda confused. I'm not sure what you're arguing against me anymore. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[Branduil]

And again, my response is: What about Kingdom of Heaven? Or the Abyss? Hey that's ANOTHER Cameron film! Sometimes it's simply not possible and if you have to cut something you're going to lose stuff. The decision is often made in these cases to lose all of one portion, rather than have it feel half-baked. Then that entire portion can be restored in a future release and give completely new perspective to the film.

Well, I know it's not going to happen in every case. I'm just saying I think it should.