Support NeoGAF

[Slayven]

But people are. Did you perhaps miss the find of artifacts in Argentina that helps understand their movement and people wanted the things destroyed immediately instead of having these examined and such?

While not the same as this, after the war a lot of buildings and statues and those things did get destroyed, it's a common thing but the statues would still hold a historical value to display how they looked at themselves and their craft work among other things. It adds to just reading a book and you can keep these things without glorifying them like a lot of states currently do by displaying them like this.

The vast majority wasn't built by them, and was built in backlash to the civil rights movement

 

[Mechazawa]

It's so exhausting reading about how we should preserve the poor old statues. Local governments and elected officials have either dragged their feet or not given a shit for literal years. Sometimes the question is strictly whether you want to continue to endure under symbols of hate and oppression or take matters into your own hands and let some stone meet the ground. Crying about preservation should be the last thing on anyone's god damn mind when those are effectively your only two options.

 

[DriftedPlanet]

Or we can treat them as the trash they are...

Relics of hate are still relics. It's up to Public Historians to put things in context. Multiple examples of propaganda and attempts at obstruction to something like the Civil Rights Movement are absolutely in line with that. The condition needs to be including a thorough explanation of their purpose in history (and failure).

 

[Psychoward]

Relics of hate are still relics. It's up to Public Historians to put things in context. Multiple examples of propaganda and attempts at obstruction to something like the Civil Rights Movement are absolutely in line with that. The condition needs to be including a thorough explanation of their purpose in history (and failure).

there are literally hundreds of them though, we don't need to preserve each one in a museum, that's a waste of space and resources

like, the picture of the people rallying around the destroyed statue is going to be a lot more significant than that statue ever was

 

[besada]

there are literally hundreds of them though, we don't need to preserve each one in a museum, that's a waste of space and resources

I'm imagining the showing: "800 Poorly Made Statues of Robert E. Lee -- bring eggs"

 

[Ferr986]

Exactly, what other nations keep statues of traitors in public parks and government buildings?

Spain with Franco. We suck in that regard

 

[Jakten]

You can still put a destroyed statue into a museum and provide the context as to what it represented. Especially in this day and age where there a tons of pictures of these things too. It's not like most relics in museums aren't already broken, deteriorating, missing pieces. The only reason ancient relics are important because ancient civilizations didn't document information to the degree we do. I say this as some one who also thinks they should be preserved with a plaque the points out how shitty their views are but it's far more important to take this shit down. If the government isn't goin to do it right then too bad really. Document some photos. Especially considering how unimportant this one is historically. It's literally no one

 

[Jonnax]

Relics of hate are still relics. It's up to Public Historians to put things in context. Multiple examples of propaganda and attempts at obstruction to something like the Civil Rights Movement are absolutely in line with that. The condition needs to be including a thorough explanation of their purpose in history (and failure).

It's not a relic if people are rallying in support of it today.

 

[The Silver]

Besides the fact the statues should never have been made in the frist place, they should have taken down and placed and or shown in the proper context decades ago. Instead the government failed the people those states were intended to mock and intimidate by letting them proudly display as is, now we've reached another boiling point and people have had enough of waiting for the government to do the right thing. Now Trump is in office, Bannon and Sessions are on his cabinet, and nazis are more emboldened then ever before. again this country reaps what it sows.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Spain with Franco. We suck in that regard

Be like your neighbor and chop the head off every statue.

But seriously, I heard that the last statue of him was removed like years ago. Did they just move it somewhere else? If so, that sucks.

Edit: Looks like I was wrong, but hey, at least one was destroyed by the people recently:

 

[KibblesBits]

So many Europeans and non Americans telling us what to do about this massive fireball of an issue. I'm really just disappointed.

If we put all the statues in storage will you finally get rid of Zwarte Piet and all the other racist crap ya'll get up to concerning "the other" in your countries?

 

[Mahonay]

It's probably important to note that most of these statues have little to no historical significance, and were erected decades later as a warning to non-whites that whites still held power and always would.

And the removal of a memorial statue doesn't actually erase history. We have that in books now. No one's going to forget that the south lost the Civil War because we stop glorifying traitors.

Quoted for a new page.

 

[DriftedPlanet]

there are literally hundreds of them though, we don't need to preserve each one in a museum, that's a waste of space and resources

like, the picture of the people rallying around the destroyed statue is going to be a lot more significant than that statue ever was

Agreed. Just pointing out that preserving a handful across relevant museums can be utilized by historians. Definitely not saying that the lot of them need to be preserved. Walking into a building to find the Confederate equivalent of the Terracotta army would be unsettling as hell.

 

[Bastables]

Here in Holland we also had a controversial statue of Jan Pieterszoon Koen, one of the founders of the VOC who did terrible things to the indigenous people of Indonesia.

Instead of tearing it down, they added a plaque with information about those crimes. It now serves an educational purpose. All schoolchildren visit it as part of the history course.

You know how many Koen statues are in Jakarta? Or Banda? Yeah fuck all.

The Japanese army literally destroyed the fucker in 1943 https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/98665/Location-Former-Statue-Jan-Pieterszoon-Coen.htm

Yes I know he got banned but Jesus

Indonesians still remember the Dutch are a bunch on colonlist arseholes without your Dutch white power statues dotting the capital of a country free of the voc or Dutch crown.

I note inspite of your allusions to being a student of history you never speak to the fact that the Netherlands or the Dutch crown have ever apologised for the Dutch colonial fuckwittery.

https://www.rnw.org/archive/black-page-dutch-history

But hey you have a plaque right......

 

[Dash_Riprock]

So many Europeans and non Americans telling us what to do about this massive fireball of an issue. I'm really just disappointed.

It was just one and the dumbass was banned. Lets not start another US-GAF vs EURO-GAF thing here.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

So many Europeans and non Americans telling us what to do about this massive fireball of an issue. I'm really just disappointed.

If we put all the statues in storage will you finally get rid of Zwarte Piet and all the other racist crap ya'll get up to concerning "the other" in your countries?

It was just one idiot.

 

[Fat4all]

Lets not start another US-GAF vs EURO-GAF thing here.

that's usually something reserved for threads about blackface

 

[Brandon F]

That's what happens when you don't actually do anything to the white supremacist slave owning losing side after they surrender

Yep. Lincoln had a real shitty VP.

 

[KibblesBits]

It was just one and the dumbass was banned. Lets not start another US-GAF vs EURO-GAF thing here.

It was just one idiot.

Ok, ok. I'm going to step away. I'm getting angry with this mess.

It's only been 8 months and it feels like eternity.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Lincoln had a real shitty VP.

Forget Confederate. I would love to see an AU where after Lincoln was killed, Johnson was booted out and Grant or even Sherman became president instead.

In real life, Grant became president right after Johnson but that fuck had already neutered Reconstruction so much he could not stop the rise of White Nationalists that swept elections.

Lol I forgot about that show, boy HBO is playing with hot fire.

If they don't cancel it after this week's events HBO deserves the backlash thats coming to them.

 

[The Silver]

Forget Confederate. I would love to see an AU where after Lincoln was killed, Johnson was booted out and Grant or even Sherman became president instead.

Lol I forgot about that show, boy HBO is playing with hot fire.

 

[antonz]

Yep. Lincoln had a real shitty VP.

Imagine if Grant had followed directly after Lincoln. Shit could be so different today. Johnson spent 4 years sabotaging everything and wasting time until the general feeling in the country began shifting towards just get things back to normal

 

[Kysen]

America you need to work on your sandal technique, can't be toppling statues without bringing out the sandals. Should take notes from the Iraqis.

 

[bunbun777]

Tear every one of these fuckers down, smelt them, take .1% of the materials and miniturize them all into little tiny statues that can go into a little tiny wing of a museum dedicated to propaganda and hate groups of the 20th century.
Just brain storming...

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Guys, what was the confederacy again? I cant remember since no statue.

Hopefully this snowballs and they just start coming down all over the place. The thought of people being hurt by them coming down gives me joy.

 

[BlackRainbowFT]

I'm not American, but I'd have removed the statues and preserved them somewhere for historical reasons...
But apparently your statues are made of rubber, so maybe you can just 3d print another one!

 

[TetraGenesis]

This was so cathartic. God it satisfied me. Wish I had watched this after the Vice documentary and not the other way around.

I don't understand America sometimes. Why there is still such passion for a 150 year old war - particularly from the losing side? Is it because confederacy is just a banner for racists to stand behind?

Ah, so you do understand America.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

I don't understand America sometimes. Why there is still such passion for a 150 year old war - particularly from the losing side? Is it because confederacy is just a banner for racists to stand behind?

You just answered your own question.

 

[DonMigs85]

I never knew these statues were kinda soft like tin

 

[robinsxe]

awesome

 

[M.Bluth]

I never knew these statues were kinda soft like tin

Just like their neonazi worshipers. Appropriate.

 

[OmnipotentO]

And nothing of value was lost.

 

[Fancyarcher]

Fucking beautiful. Burn them all down, I don't care about the so-called awful laws.

 

[Makonero]

I'm imagining the showing: "800 Poorly Made Statues of Robert E. Lee -- bring eggs"

"Knock the head off a real confederate statue, only $100!"

Should be a real revenue maker for the state for a while

 

[excelsiorlef]

But people are. Did you perhaps miss the find of artifacts in Argentina that helps understand their movement and people wanted the things destroyed immediately instead of having these examined and such?

While not the same as this, after the war a lot of buildings and statues and those things did get destroyed, it's a common thing but the statues would still hold a historical value to display how they looked at themselves and their craft work among other things. It adds to just reading a book and you can keep these things without glorifying them like a lot of states currently do by displaying them like this.

I agree they are not appropriate and I never said so, at least if it came across like that it was never my intention, but to me that do mean they hold historical value.

It's ok if we don't agree about that, just my cent on this thing.

None of them are precious and many of them can't/won't be taken down legally because GOP want them there for the original and continued purpose. These aren't art their tools of oppression. Fuck em. Stop thinking of them as holding any value.

Go preserve a forrest or something that actually is precious

 

[excelsiorlef]

Relics of hate are still relics. It's up to Public Historians to put things in context. Multiple examples of propaganda and attempts at obstruction to something like the Civil Rights Movement are absolutely in line with that. The condition needs to be including a thorough explanation of their purpose in history (and failure).

Nah it's actually up to anti-racist folks and how much longer they feel like waiting in each town that these fuckers exist.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Like others have said. These statues aren't historic artifacts. They are efforts to establish remembrance cults and as such They are part of current cultural events and thus fair game. Depicting something historical doesn't automatically grant it historic value.

The documentation about the controversy around these statues has real historic value however, and thankfully social media and the ubiquity of mobile cameras is a godsend for this purpose.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Pretty sure Sessions' DOJ will work overtime to make sure the people that can be identified in that video will be brought to justice...

The thugs who beat that black kid in the parking structure during the protest? They're, uh...looking into it...

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

First thing NC does right in years and it's the people that do it, not the government.

God Speed kids.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not American, but I'd have removed the statues and preserved them somewhere for historical reasons...
But apparently your statues are made of rubber, so maybe you can just 3d print another one!

They have no historical value they have even less value than the stream of shit brand new #1s that caused the Comic Book Speculators bust.

 

[Machina]

Wipe the stain of the Confederacy from the face of the world.

Only about a century too late.

 

[pigeon]

It's genuinely bizarre to me how many people seem to believe that there's historical value to public statuary.

Like, do they not have shitty public statues in other countries? Is that just an American thing? I don't even mean promoting white supremacy, I just mean without particular artistic or historical merit.

Because let me tell you, we have a LOT of that.


edit: I just realized a lot of you guys are Europeans.

Hey, guys! None of these statues are Roman. There were no Romans here. Our statue history goes back like 200 years, max. The indigenous Americans didn't build a lot of statues that survived. They had some pretty cool mountains which we have mostly not knocked over or hollowed out*.


* Mostly. Sorry, Cheyenne Mountain.

 

[bobnowhere]

I never knew these statues were kinda soft like tin

He really did go all weak at the knees after he tumbled.

 

[BigDes]

Honestly if you want these statues to have historic value you need to pull them all down, smelt them down and then reform them into a statue of a crowd pulling down the statue.

This action has far more historical value than some forty year old tribute to owning people.

 

[Vagabundo]

It's genuinely bizarre to me how many people seem to believe that there's historical value to public statuary.

Like, do they not have shitty public statues in other countries? Is that just an American thing? I don't even mean promoting white supremacy, I just mean without particular artistic or historical merit.

Because let me tell you, we have a LOT of that.


edit: I just realized a lot of you guys are Europeans.

Hey, guys! None of these statues are Roman. There were no Romans here. Our statue history goes back like 200 years, max. The indigenous Americans didn't build a lot of statues that survived. They had some pretty cool mountains which we have mostly not knocked over or hollowed out*.


* Mostly. Sorry, Cheyenne Mountain.

Naw we dont keep all our statues either: Nelson's Pillar

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Just build one big museum out in the middle of nowhere on cheap land. Call it the museum of shame. Have the statues there along with descriptions of how racist, cowardly and traitorous each person depicted is.

 

[elvisaintdead]

It's probably important to note that most of these statues have little to no historical significance, and were erected decades later as a warning to non-whites that whites still held power and always would.

As a non-American, this is probably a thing I need to read up on more to get a sense of who had a lot of these things built and what their motivations were. The ones built in the 50s and 60s alongside the civil rights movement seem to definitely be created out of some serious spiteful racist bullshit (why else would there be a dip in creation until that point?). The ones built more at the turn of the century are the ones I'm curious about. At first glance, that would seem like a reasonable amount of time to build a memorial for a general or some soldiers after a random war. Obviously this particular war and this particular side of the war makes it way more complicated. The "heritage" argument would carry more weight in the 1900s due to some people still alive being sons and daughters of men that fought in the war. The Lincoln memorial was 1920 I think, so if you were going to build a Lee statue, the 1900s doesn't seem like the craziest time to do it. The arguments against it back then would be that the US is supposed to be a unified country, and that black people are supposed to have freedom, glorifying men that went against that unity and that freedom would seem to be in poor taste. If anyone has some reading material on the subject of those turn of the century confederate statues and the motivations of the people creating them, I'd love to read up on it.

I'm already not a fan of the unqualified glorification of slave-owners that tends to happen when it comes to U.S. history. Even more so when it comes to those who fought a war specifically to keep their slaves on a side that has become the flag of the worst types of racists in the U.S. I say tear 'em down, and while you're at it add some extra text to the statues of any founding fathers who were slave-owners.

edit: reading through this thread, it looks like I need to do some reading on the United Daughters of the Confederacy

 

[TAJ]

That's not why they were erected. Most of them were put up, not as historical memorials, but as warnings to uppity black people, by explicitly racist groups. They are racist propaganda celebrating traitors to the U.S. They are no more appropriate than having a statue of Hirohito at Pearl Harbor.

To really compare to these the Hirohito statue would also have to be put there in the '90s or later.

 

[lemmykoopa]

These Confederate statues, are they in essence statues of people and generals who were pro slavery and fought against the North during the civil war? (non USA gaffer here)

 

[excelsiorlef]

These Confederate statues, are they in essence statues of people and generals who were pro slavery and fought against the North during the civil war? (non USA gaffer here)

Yes.
They are statues of slavers, traitors, losers and white supremacists