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[monome]

this thing is what I wanted from Kinect 2, basically being a cheap Kinect 1.5

 

[MCD]

Looks like a power brick.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

The prototype kinects had a lot of the image processing done on the device itself, but all of that was moved onto the console to keep the costs down. There's nothing special in it anymore.

I believe there's PrimeSense's identification and classifier logic on-board as well as, again, hugely important software libraries that are a result of MS Research's work that do most of the work that makes computer vision happen. Else, everyone would have camera-based detection on the same level of sophistication as MS' product. But they don't.

 

[onQ123]

So if you're trying to say using software tricks to try and get 2 2D cameras to recognize 3D objects is going to be better than using an IR depth camera to actually get a proper 3D image, I might say that's crazy.

Kinect Sports is personally enjoyable but that's the only enjoyable game I've played with it and only certain parts of the game are enjoyable.



It's not crazy it's biased.

You mean like how 1 2D Camera & a controller with a colored ball on the end of it was able to do better 3D avatar controls than a 3D IR depth camera?


the end result is what's important & if the PS4Eye can achieve the end result better with 2 high speed cameras than Kinect can with a slower 30FPS IR Depth camera then yes it will be better.

 

[JohnnyWestlake]

You mean like how 1 2D Camera & a controller with a colored ball on the end of it was able to do better 3D avatar controls than a 3D IR depth camera?


the end result is what's important & if the PS4Eye can achieve the end result better with 2 high speed cameras than Kinect can with a slower 30FPS IR Depth camera then yes it will be better.

You're right, the Playstation Eye probably was better at recognising a giant colourful blob than the Kinect. And given that, all it could track was a hand position, and used teh moves gyroscopic data to overlay something in the proper location. Which is fine, if you're only trying to track someone's hand. Trying to track entire people or objects is another story, and requires a lot of processing.

Kinect is simply in another dimension when it comes to actually recognising entire objects, and people. And still will be - it'll barely even sweat it when it comes down to it.

 

[PistolGrip]

You're right, the Playstation Eye probably was better at recognising a giant colourful blob than the Kinect. And given that, all it could track was a hand position, and used teh moves gyroscopic data to overlay something in the proper location. Which is fine, if you're only trying to track someone's hand. Trying to track entire people or objects is another story, and requires a lot of processing.

Kinect is simply in another dimension when it comes to actually recognising entire objects, and people. And still will be - it'll barely even sweat it when it comes down to it.

I dont understand you get his point. He is basically saying that there are tricks you can do to get depth . Move is a good example of being able to do better 3d tracking of a single lit object than anything else on the market.

Will this new solution be better than Kinect at full 3d body tracking probably not claiming it is worse just because there is an IR camera in kinect is foolish.

 

[AranhaHunter]

6 people simultaneously with full skeleton track is significant. That would mean the ultimate Dance Central/Just Dance/Fitness game. 720 would be the de facto for the casuals looking for those types of experiences. How many people can PS4Eye track simultaneously? If that's not known, how many people could the eye on PS3 track? I would think the PS4Eye can track around the same amount of skeletons per person as well. That should pretty even.

Depth from stereo RGB produces noisy video. As lighting conditions get darker like an average indoor room or for players with darker skin, results get much worse.

Depth from an IR based sensor like Kinect produces much higher quality video that isn't affected by the dark room or dark skin problems.

So you're saying the PS4Eye won't recognize a black person playing in his/her room at night? Is this true, that's a major oversight by Sony if so.

 

[Spinluck]

So you're saying the PS4Eye won't recognize a black person playing in his/her room at night? Is this true, that's a major oversight by Sony if so.

PS4Eye is racist confirmed.

 

[Pachterballs]

it still works with move. but it will track a lot better than eyetoy. I'm don't think it will be as good as kinect 2 but the fact that you have a controller to use with it, makes it immediately better than kinect for games.

 

[Tagg9]

Kinect 2 will do 3D depth tracking at 512 x 424 @ 30FPS

PS4Eye will do 3D depth tracking at 1280 x 800 @ 60FPS

Where does it say the PS4 Eye does 3D depth tracking at this resolution? I assumed that was strictly RGB output.

 

[Gustav]

This thing is a singular reason I'm not sure I'm getting a PS4. I have no interest in any motion tracking nor do I want another sensor bar around my TV. I hope this thing is optional and I can run my PS4 without it attached,

 

[Baconsammy]

Yeah, maybe back in 2008.

Yeah right. Skype is very much a real thing in 2013. It's pretty much the only way I call anyone anymore.


LOL @150 dollars for Sony's camera. No. No way. They wouldn't do that. They're also known for their camera tech, so you can expect it to be good. Biggest difference will be that it won't be any good in the dark unless they use near-infrared as the Kinect does.

 

[tzare]

I wish it wasn't so butt ugly any word on if this is final hardware?



Apparently you've never played Kinect sports how you swing actually effected the hit, you also couldn't cheat with two hands.

you should try beach volleyball which actually required you to move, jump, throw and hit the ball.

you may consider a 7 year gap too.

I hope it is not included in the box unless it is cheap enough to keep the price of the system affordable.

 

[onQ123]

You're right, the Playstation Eye probably was better at recognising a giant colourful blob than the Kinect. And given that, all it could track was a hand position, and used teh moves gyroscopic data to overlay something in the proper location. Which is fine, if you're only trying to track someone's hand. Trying to track entire people or objects is another story, and requires a lot of processing.

Kinect is simply in another dimension when it comes to actually recognising entire objects, and people. And still will be - it'll barely even sweat it when it comes down to it.

it tracked both your hands positions & it could track your head & like I said it was able to control avatars in 3D better than Kinect by using just those 3 tracking points & the end result was better with no delay & 1:1 tracking.

6 people simultaneously with full skeleton track is significant. That would mean the ultimate Dance Central/Just Dance/Fitness game. 720 would be the de facto for the casuals looking for those types of experiences. How many people can PS4Eye track simultaneously? If that's not known, how many people could the eye on PS3 track? I would think the PS4Eye can track around the same amount of skeletons per person as well. That should pretty even.



So you're saying the PS4Eye won't recognize a black person playing in his/her room at night? Is this true, that's a major oversight by Sony if so.

4 people could play the old Eyetoy game at 1 time but that wasn't 3D tracking & I wouldn't be sure of the PS4Eye doing 3D tracking with more than 1 player.

& about the PlayStation Eye tracking a black person in the dark thing, I'm black & the PSEye can track me using only the light from my TV so I'm sure PS4 Eye could do the same.

Where does it say the PS4 Eye does 3D depth tracking at this resolution? I assumed that was strictly RGB output.

it's a Stereoscopic Camera & that is one of the resolution that it tracks depth at using the 2 cameras.

LOL @150 dollars for Sony's camera. No. No way. They wouldn't do that. They're also known for their camera tech, so you can expect it to be good. Biggest difference will be that it won't be any good in the dark unless they use near-infrared as the Kinect does.

PlayStation Eye works pretty good in low light I did this video only using the light from my laptop.

125 FPS hand tracking PlayStation Eye (Introducing the Leap?)

the problem with PSEye is when someone has a light source in the video with them & the PSEye adjust to the brightness of the light & make everything else dark around it.

 

[dofry]

Edit: Need to read the comments properly.

 

[Goldenroad]

This, to me, was probably the most interesting and overlooked part of that entire conference. Sony basically, in so many words, announced a device that looks exactly like a Kinect that will be coming with the PS4. I don't know what this means in terms of games like Dance Central or Zumba, as in, will the controller be required for those games to work on PS4, but I have a feeling that Sony will not want to leave all that dance/excercise game money sitting on the table.

 

[joesiv]

Video Pixel (Maximum) 1280 x 800 pixel x 2
Video Frame Rate 1280×800 pixel @ 60fps

Is anyone else disappointed with the 1280x800 pixel resolution? If you think that that resolution is also fixed to a super wide angle lens, how much resolution is actually usable within the game as a video feed?

I would have preferred at least 1 camera to have a much higher resolution, say 4k (like the goPro), so once you crop out a frame of where you're face actually is, you're left with more than a tiny poster sized image.

It should be said that it seems like the main differences between the eye and kinect is it's fundemental technology, the Kinect uses an actual depth sensor to enhance it's depth perception, where the eye is using stereoscopic cameras with software to detect depth. I would take it that the eye would be very CPU dependant, and while the Kinect is as well, I believe a lot of that CPU usage is in the SDK where it's converting depth and images into skeletal simulations (beyond just knowing depth). We don't know yet if the eye will come with an SDK that gives the same skeletal information the kinect does.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Obligatory GIF so people don't forget history:

The Eyetoy gameplay is smoke and mirrors. It's tracking movement, not a person. The ball would hit back if you just jumped around. Kinect Sports is tracking a human skeleton and applying it to a rendered character so you actually have to move your hand to the correct position and swing it forward.

How well this new Eye will handle 3D human tracking or how it will compare to Kinect, I can't say. The tracking part all comes down to software and Microsoft have an incredibly robust system that any developer can access. People seem to take the software for granted, "If I have a microphone then it can do voice recognition". No it can't unless you give the developer a solution or they can be bothered to do it themselves. Microphones can't by default understand human speech, just as a camera can't recognize and track a human in real time. It's an incredibly complex process.

 

[joesiv]

"If I have a microphone then it can do voice recognition". No it can't unless you give the developer a solution or they can be bothered to do it themselves.

Yeah, but what about if we had 4 microphones? Then can we get voice recognition for free? I kid I kid...

 

[wapplew]

This, to me, was probably the most interesting and overlooked part of that entire conference. Sony basically, in so many words, announced a device that looks exactly like a Kinect that will be coming with the PS4. I don't know what this means in terms of games like Dance Central or Zumba, as in, will the controller be required for those games to work on PS4, but I have a feeling that Sony will not want to leave all that dance/excercise game money sitting on the table.

My guess is all those dance game can work without controller, just like how first gen eye toy works. With dual cam, system can easily isolate background and player. So new PS Eye able to track full body motion like kinect, but without depth information. But most of those game only need info from X, Y axis. Totally do-able.

Motion game aside, DS4 light indicator can totally work as a pointing mechanic. Just like how light gun games work, with gyro and acceleration, it can totally work as PS4 "mouse" pointer.
Imagine all those RTS or DOTA finally viable for console? Just some wild guess.

 

[xxracerxx]

I hope I don't have to move furniture to be able to use the new camera for Sony, which I don't think I will. Can't say the same for Kinect 1.0.

 

[Punkster_NY]

For the people saying Kinect 2 is going to be a lot better than this let me break a few things down for you.

Kinect 2 will do 3D depth tracking at 512 x 424 @ 30FPS

PS4Eye will do 3D depth tracking at 1280 x 800 @ 60FPS

640 x 400 @ 120FPS

&

320 x 192 @ 240FPS


Kinect2 will do normal RGB video @ 1920 x 1080 @ 30FPS & 3D at 512 x 424 @ 30FPS

PS4Eye will do 3D RGB video @ 1280 x 800 @ 60FPS using the 2 cameras





Kinect2 will have an IR array so it will work in most lighting conditions & settings

PS4Eye has a F/2 which is really good in low light my HX9V lowest F-stop is 3.3 & it's good at recording video in low light at 60FPS so PS4Eye with a f/2 will be even better & shouldn't have much problems tracking people in low light conditions @60FPS & with the 2 camera setup it will be removing the background so that's another problem fixed.


I'm not saying Kinect 2 won't be better at 3D tracking but from the specs it doesn't look like it's going to be a clear cut winner above the PS4Eye.

I will refer to your post whenever the issue comes up. Very informative, thank you. : )

 

[zomgbbqftw]

No. It is a very, very cheap piece of hardware.

 

[Zaptruder]

Bundled camera, 8 gigs of DDR5... this console ain't gonna be cheap.

That camera alone has got to be worth $150.

Next gen is shaping up to be very expensive. Especially if games hit the dreaded $70 mark.

My wallet... it cries.

The bill of materials on that camera is worth less than 35 dollars. Smart Phone ubiquity has made this kind of tech amazingly cheap.

And the cameras been used are pretty low rent as well.

From what I recall, an 8MP Smartphone camera is around $15-$25 for manufacturers. Cheap.

 

[Sickboy007]

It's no Kinekt without their libraries, but it could work very well in conjunction with the Move/DS4.

 

[phosphor112]

Bundled camera, 8 gigs of DDR5... this console ain't gonna be cheap.

That camera alone has got to be worth $150.

Next gen is shaping up to be very expensive. Especially if games hit the dreaded $70 mark.

My wallet... it cries.

It's not made of gold.

 

[sangreal]

Does anybody else think that the cameras can be separated?

They need to be a fixed distance for the 3d depth tracking to work, so no

 

[tapedeck]

That camera alone has got to be worth $150.

lol no, Id guess that thing costs them $30 tops.

 

[phosphor112]

So if you're trying to say using software tricks to try and get 2 2D cameras to recognize 3D objects is going to be better than using an IR depth camera to actually get a proper 3D image, I might say that's crazy.

Erm... 2 camera's is more of a "proper 3d image" than a 2d one with IR data used for depth estimation.

People don't record 3D movies with a kinect, they record with 2 cameras side by side.

I know you'd like to think one is immediately better than the other, but don't go guessing just because you can.

 

[Alx]

Does anybody else think that the cameras can be separated?

Nope, the technology is based on stereovision, and the console needs to know exactly the distance between both cameras to process it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=513425
(I knew that topic would be useful )

Also, for comparison purpose, you have to take into account that depth measurement through stereovision is more CPU intensive, and depends more on environmental conditions (light, contrast,...). Even the base function of "extracting the player cutout" isn't an easy feat, having a good enough depth information to track his gestures is even harder.

 

[joesiv]

lol no, Id guess that thing costs them $30 tops.

Well I'd peg it at around $70, it's got 4 mics, 3 cameras and associated circuitry, along with the encloser, packaging and power supply.

Though, I'd venture to bet Sony will charge $149 for the honor of it taking up one of our USB3.0 ports.

 

[joesiv]

Also, for comparison purpose, you have to take into account that depth measurement through stereovision is more CPU intensive, and depends more on environmental conditions (light, contrast,...). Even the base function of "extracting the player cutout" isn't an easy feat, having a good enough depth information to track his gestures is even harder.

Not to mention you only have 1280x800 pixels shot at wide angle to "find" jestures, I doubt it'll be able to do finger tracking, certainly not at a reasonable distance from the camera.

 

[Alx]

For the people saying Kinect 2 is going to be a lot better than this let me break a few things down for you.

http://3nter.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kinect22.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/iTLAWgM.png



Kinect 2 will do 3D depth tracking at 512 x 424 @ 30FPS

PS4Eye will do 3D depth tracking at 1280 x 800 @ 60FPS

640 x 400 @ 120FPS

&

320 x 192 @ 240FPS


Kinect2 will do normal RGB video @ 1920 x 1080 @ 30FPS & 3D at 512 x 424 @ 30FPS

PS4Eye will do 3D RGB video @ 1280 x 800 @ 60FPS using the 2 cameras

What you're not mentioning is that the output of kinect is a tracked skeleton at 30 fps. The output of PS4eye is two raw image streams, that need to be processed for any depth measurement.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Well I'd peg it at around $70, it's got 4 mics, 3 cameras and associated circuitry, along with the encloser, packaging and power supply.

Though, I'd venture to bet Sony will charge $149 for the honor of it taking up one of our USB3.0 ports.

This post is full of wrong.

It uses a proprietary port on the PS3 (as described in Sony's PDFs) so it won't use a USB 3.0 port or require a power supply as it will get power from the PS4 like Kinect does with the 360S. It has two cameras, not three as you said. Also, Sony probably won't sell them separately if it really does come as standard for PS4, it will just be packed into every box.

 

[phosphor112]

Well I'd peg it at around $70, it's got 4 mics, 3 cameras and associated circuitry, along with the encloser, packaging and power supply.

Though, I'd venture to bet Sony will charge $149 for the honor of it taking up one of our USB3.0 ports.

4 mics, 2 cameras, the pcb/boarding and plastic.

PS Eye costs 30 bucks brand new with Sony making money...

And that has:
4 mics, 1 camera, little less board/wiring and plastic... And since it's bundled directly into PS4, it's not like it has to have a mark up for stores to really carry it.

 

[davious88]

Well I'd peg it at around $70, it's got 4 mics, 3 cameras and associated circuitry, along with the encloser, packaging and power supply.

Though, I'd venture to bet Sony will charge $149 for the honor of it taking up one of our USB3.0 ports.

Actually, if you look at the spec table onQ123 posted, it says it will use a dedicated connector.

Edit, beaten.

 

[phosphor112]

What you're not mentioning is that the output of kinect is a tracked skeleton at 30 fps. The output of PS4eye is two raw image streams, that need to be processed for any depth measurement.

PS Eye can track fingers at 120fps...

onQ123 posted a video above...

 

[Sickboy007]

Can we all agree that it looks like crap?

I'm not sure I want that bulky box on my tv, I expect better from Sony.

 

[sangreal]

PS Eye can track fingers at 120fps...

onQ123 posted a video above...

from 10ft away?

 

[gutter_trash]

-enhenced version of move,
-and it tracks the controller, so the camera will focus on the player when he is chatting while playing and stuff

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

PS Eye can track fingers at 120fps...

onQ123 posted a video above...

So can my phone camera. But it doesn't, unless you want to build an app for me.

 

[joesiv]

And since it's bundled directly into PS4, it's not like it has to have a mark up for stores to really carry it.

Curious, do you have a source that it'll be packed in? I kept hearing Sony call it a "peripheral". Sure the DS4 has support with it's light bar (smart decision), but as far as I could tell it's a peripheral that you'll need to buy separately.

 

[Punchpudding]

Uh are we warming up to motion controls again? I think I missed the memo...

 

[AranhaHunter]

4 people could play the old Eyetoy game at 1 time but that wasn't 3D tracking & I wouldn't be sure of the PS4Eye doing 3D tracking with more than 1 player.

How many people can Kinect and Kinect 2.0 track in 3D?

This, to me, was probably the most interesting and overlooked part of that entire conference. Sony basically, in so many words, announced a device that looks exactly like a Kinect that will be coming with the PS4. I don't know what this means in terms of games like Dance Central or Zumba, as in, will the controller be required for those games to work on PS4, but I have a feeling that Sony will not want to leave all that dance/excercise game money sitting on the table.

Basically means Sony will get those games and will have something that is nearly as good and feature complete as Kinect 2. Durango will still most likely get the "definite" version, but the PS4 will get it too. The fitness and dance games will be better next generation IMO, and it's weird that the WiiU, out of all consoles, might be the one that gets the gimped version whereas Sony was getting the gimped version of these types of games this generation.

The Eyetoy gameplay is smoke and mirrors. It's tracking movement, not a person. The ball would hit back if you just jumped around. Kinect Sports is tracking a human skeleton and applying it to a rendered character so you actually have to move your hand to the correct position and swing it forward.

How well this new Eye will handle 3D human tracking or how it will compare to Kinect, I can't say. The tracking part all comes down to software and Microsoft have an incredibly robust system that any developer can access. People seem to take the software for granted, "If I have a microphone then it can do voice recognition". No it can't unless you give the developer a solution or they can be bothered to do it themselves. Microphones can't by default understand human speech, just as a camera can't recognize and track a human in real time. It's an incredibly complex process.

Makes sense, I know Sony has facial recognition and voice recognition/command SW that it was using with the PSEye, they never really released it outside of song selection in singstar. Those videos are from 2009 using the archaic PSEye, I'm sure the SW has been greatly improved and will work even better with PS4Eye.

I think the PSEye could do skeletal tracking, but not 20 joints like Kinect or 25 like Kinect 2.0. I think it was maybe 10, I'm not sure. Actually can someone confirm that? I think I saw a video when Kung Fu live was released, but I might be mistaken. I looked for videos and couldn't find them.

This post is full of wrong.

It uses a proprietary port on the PS3 (as described in Sony's PDFs) so it won't use a USB 3.0 port or require a power supply as it will get power from the PS4 like Kinect does with the 360S. It has two cameras, not three as you said. Also, Sony probably won't sell them separately if it really does come as standard for PS4, it will just be packed into every box.

Well they will probably still sell it separately, what if your ps4eye breaks?

 

[AgentP]

Bundled camera, 8 gigs of DDR5... this console ain't gonna be cheap.

That camera alone has got to be worth $150.

Next gen is shaping up to be very expensive. Especially if games hit the dreaded $70 mark.

My wallet... it cries.

People need to stop pulling numbers out of their butts. That camera looks like $20 in Sony parts. It can't be very expensive, they know they have to make profits.

 

[joesiv]

from 10ft away?

That's the key, at 85degree angle of view that's equivalent to around 24mm (35mm equiv) focal length, in otherwords a really wide angle of view.

So you take a 1MP image, and you're sitting on the couch or even standing at 10ft, you're fingers are going to be just a couple pixels big, if they're moving (specially if your living room is dim, causing lack of contrast and also motion blur) the definition of those pixels are going to be pretty poor as well (not to mention Bayer softness to make it worse).

 

[MikeE21286]

I feel like it's Kinect-lite to cash-in on any third party experiences that use the basic functions of the Kinect in a useful and meaningful way.

 

[StreetDisciple]

Do you need this to be connected for your controller to be recognized?

 

[Alx]

PS Eye can track fingers at 120fps...

onQ123 posted a video above...

That's not finger tracking, that's basic shape extraction and analysis.
Without knowing the developer of that demo, I can suggest an easy way to do a similar one :
- extract pixels in a given color range (using histogram models of skin color)
- labelize individual blobs
- for each blob : extract center and main directions (principal component analysis), draw a cross and two lines.

It's a nice and easy demo to do (all the previous operations are common functions in image processing libraries like OpenCV, there may even be tutorials for that). But it's not finger tracking because :
- it can't tell a finger from any other object of similar color
- it merges all neighbouring pixels in asingle object : it "works" for an open hand, but a closed fist will register as a single misshaped finger.
- it cannot estimate the articulation of a finger. Even if one is localized, it will have only one direction.

 

[Jay Sosa]

soo with that blue thingy on the controller and this cam..does this mean the majority of ps4 games is probably gonna require me to move more than my fingers? If so...I'm out again.