Support NeoGAF

[missile]

Really? I can return my opened PS3 to Amazon, or Sony, for a full refund? :lol
Can I do this after they change the EULA on me? :lol

Can I return an opened game for a refund? :lol :lol :lol :lol ...

*canireturnthis.jpg*

 

[test_account]

I think milk tastes better when I drink it out of a SEGA cup. Take it as you will. Anyway, this is a derail, so if you want to chat any further about group identification theory, we should probably take it to PM.

If you should think that milk tastes better if you drink it out of a SEGA cup, then that would be your opinion Then it is up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to agree or disagree with your opinion, but wouldnt your opinion still be the same even if i agree or disagree with it?

But unfortunately i dont quite see what this have to do with something that i have said? I dont think that i have made any similar claims/statements like the example that you mentioned that milk tastes better when being drinked out of a SEGA cup? Or do you mean that the reason why i have these opinions about the removal of the OtherOS is only because i am biased toward Sony?

I will admit that PS3 is console in this generation that i personally find the most interesting, but that doesnt necessarily means that i am very biased toward Sony, i have much respect for Microsoft and Nintendo as well And i actually think that i would have had pretty much the same opinions that i have now even if for example Xbox 360 was the console that i found the most interesting in this generation. If Microsoft would remove for example the Avatar support and/or if Nintendo had removed for example the Weather Channel in an attempt to prevent piracy, then i would most likely have had understanding for this as well.

So i wouldnt say that bias is really affecting my opinions in this case, if that is what you mean? But if you think that, then maybe i havnt worded myself good enough, sorry, but i always try to be fair. Maybe sometimes i can be a bit more forgiving if there is a company that i like, but i would never let bias completely decide my opinions about something because i always try to be fair. But it is up to you if you want to belive me or not, but now you know what i mean at least

What is group indentification theory? I didnt know that i or we chatted about this? I have only said my opinions about the removal of the OtherOS stuff, i havnt talked about any groups, or how do you mean? This might be derail indeed, so feel free to answer to this over PM if you want to reply

But what exactly are we discussing about here by the way?

EDIT: I added some text.

EDIT 2: I would just like to add something that i forgot to mentioned earlier. In some cases, i might have defended something that Sony have done, so i can understand if you maybe think that i am "Sony Defence Force". But i think it is important for me to say i dont defend Sony just because of bias. If i defend Sony or anyone else, then it is most likely because that is what my opinions are, not because that i am biased. I just wanted to say that

 

[charlequin]

We've been over this before.

• EULAs have an indeterminate legality in the US, with certain district courts ruling that they are enforceable given certain preconditions (like that the user must have a legitimate way of reading the agreement and consenting to it), and others ruling they are completely unenforceable. Since there's no Supreme Court case on the matter and no written law on the matter, it's really still an ambiguous issue in general.
• None of the cases that rule in favor of EULAs in the US support the enforceability of such contracts if a user does not have the opportunity to peruse them before locking in their purchase. Console-game EULAs would not be enforceable anywhere in the US because you can't see them before rendering the product unreturnable.
• EULAs, even in the most favorable interpretation, are still bound by the restrictions of contract law and therefore do not generally allow a consumer to waive any consumer-protection rights they may possess, to automatically disclaim copyright over works created using the licensed software, etc. As a result, an EULA, even if judged enforceable, cannot actually be used to get around any laws that may exist to protect the consumer.

I think it's extremely likely that it is legal for Sony to remove this feature in the US simply because it's basically legal to sell people broken junk that doesn't do what you advertised or otherwise actively and knowingly rip consumers off in the US -- but the EULA is not going to be a determining factor in that.

 

[Version 3.0]

I think it's extremely likely that it is legal for Sony to remove this feature in the US simply because it's basically legal to sell people broken junk that doesn't do what you advertised or otherwise actively and knowingly rip consumers off in the US -- but the EULA is not going to be a determining factor in that.

Maybe and definitely.

Maybe it's legal for Sony to do this in the US. It certainly falls into an area that isn't clearly covered by a major, well-known law of any sort, and probably has no precedent in court. But if a case were brought against them, I think it would have a fair chance of holding up. It would likely be a matter of finding an existing consumer rights law that could be interpreted in an applicable way. The chances of that happening: probably nil, due to apathy.

And definitely...you're right: the EULA has no bearing here. If this were going to be determined as legal or not, the EULA would take a back seat to actual laws (which the informed know is part of the EULA anyway).

 

[Version 3.0]

If Microsoft would remove for example the Avatar support and/or if Nintendo had removed for example the Weather Channel in an attempt to prevent piracy, then i would most likely have had understanding for this as well.

Nintendo already removed MP3 support from the Wii. But they didn't advertise the Wii as an MP3 player. There's a distinction. If Sony had included OtherOS but never advertised the feature in an attempt to sell systems to people for use as (basically) a PC, then it wouldn't be this big a deal...it would pass virtually unnoticed like Nintendo's dumb update did.

 

[AndyD]

We've been over this before.

• EULAs have an indeterminate legality in the US, with certain district courts ruling that they are enforceable given certain preconditions (like that the user must have a legitimate way of reading the agreement and consenting to it), and others ruling they are completely unenforceable. Since there's no Supreme Court case on the matter and no written law on the matter, it's really still an ambiguous issue in general.
• None of the cases that rule in favor of EULAs in the US support the enforceability of such contracts if a user does not have the opportunity to peruse them before locking in their purchase. Console-game EULAs would not be enforceable anywhere in the US because you can't see them before rendering the product unreturnable.
• EULAs, even in the most favorable interpretation, are still bound by the restrictions of contract law and therefore do not generally allow a consumer to waive any consumer-protection rights they may possess, to automatically disclaim copyright over works created using the licensed software, etc. As a result, an EULA, even if judged enforceable, cannot actually be used to get around any laws that may exist to protect the consumer.

I think it's extremely likely that it is legal for Sony to remove this feature in the US simply because it's basically legal to sell people broken junk that doesn't do what you advertised or otherwise actively and knowingly rip consumers off in the US -- but the EULA is not going to be a determining factor in that.

The link to the EULA is usually printed on the box. You do not have to open the box for a game or the console to read it. Much like software cases where even after you buy it and take it home and the EULA pops up when you put the disc in, this is very likely to be valid.

And you are right, in the US there are no strong consumer laws (part of the reason products are cheaper). And since there aren't any, there is nothing to supersede the EULA.

The EULA does contain a provision which states that features may change and also a provision stating that you only accept that version of the software (hence a new EULA for each update) and may keep the old software installed by selecting no at a new EULA. So you can always stick with the old feature set if you want and miss out on new functionality. So if you choose to keep OtherOS its fine but you lose access to the new features of the console provided in the new update.

My opinion is that a consumer is very unlikely to win a suit against Sony in the US over this.

 

[Cruzader]

So whats the deal with the DNS thing to bypass the FW? Pros/Cons plz. If I continue to use that, will something happen? If I can make a DNS setting on my router so that my PS3 can use it and be safer or can I remain using the one posted here?

 

[GSG Flash]

Nintendo already removed MP3 support from the Wii. But they didn't advertise the Wii as an MP3 player. There's a distinction. If Sony had included OtherOS but never advertised the feature in an attempt to sell systems to people for use as (basically) a PC, then it wouldn't be this big a deal...it would pass virtually unnoticed like Nintendo's dumb update did.

It's not even that, Nintendo's mp3-removing update of the photo channel was completely optional and independent of the console's other features, unlike Sony's dumbass firmware update. Meaning that no matter if you updated the channel or not you would still be able to play online or play any games released in the future, even if they required a firmware update.

Sony, on the other hand, just gives you the illusion of an optional update when it really isn't unless you want a gimped console.

 

[Massa]

It's not even that, Nintendo's mp3-removing update of the photo channel was completely optional and independent of the console's other features, unlike Sony's dumbass firmware update. Meaning that no matter if you updated the channel or not you would still be able to play online or play any games released in the future, even if they required a firmware update.

Sony, on the other hand, just gives you the illusion of an optional update when it really isn't unless you want a gimped console.

Nintendo even offer instructions on how to return to the older Photo Channel version if you want.

 

[PSGames]

Doesn't refusing the new update mean we can't play future games as well?

 

[Kittonwy]

So whats the deal with the DNS thing to bypass the FW? Pros/Cons plz. If I continue to use that, will something happen? If I can make a DNS setting on my router so that my PS3 can use it and be safer or can I remain using the one posted here?

Why are you trying to bypass the firmware? Do you actually need linux on your PS3 (not just in general)? It's not like the Sony people don't go around checking out boards or won't know about this FW bypass, they'll probably find a way to stop this by the time the next update comes around or maybe they'll start banning accounts if they see machines connected online that don't have the proper firmware.

 

[Massa]

Doesn't refusing the new update mean we can't play future games as well?

Yes, your system will lose the ability to play every "PS3 format" game like advertised when you bought it.

 

[JardeL]

Why are you trying to bypass the firmware? Do you actually need linux on your PS3 (not just in general)? It's not like the Sony people don't go around checking out boards or won't know about this FW bypass, they'll probably find a way to stop this by the time the next update comes around or maybe they'll start banning accounts if they see machines connected online that don't have the proper firmware.

No way. I dont think they'll go that far [ actually I haven't heard anyone banned from PSN so far ]. They removed a feature and they'll ban you if you still want to use it? Why would they do that, I'm not Geohotz I'm not trying to hack PS3 via Linux, I'm harmless .

 

[Anony]

Huh?

No, I meant that the core features of the PS3 are gaming and multimedia. So unless they start removing portions of those, I will not start worry. It was in response to his slippery slope statement.

I am not sure what the Wii has to do with it. It does both gaming and multimedia and not Linux.

Sure you can argue Linux can be used to play games or for multimedia and I have used it that way for roms, but in the grand scheme its not a crucial element of the core gaming and multimedia features.

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Wii_Linux

 

[test_account]

Nintendo already removed MP3 support from the Wii. But they didn't advertise the Wii as an MP3 player. There's a distinction.

Ah yes, that is true, i forgot about that Nintendo removed the MP3 support for the Wii. What was the reason for that Nintendo removed the MP3 support again, because they didnt want to pay a license fee or something? If so, i can understand that. I can also understand that Nintendo didnt want to include the support for playing DVD movies, because to save money on fees. EDIT: I see now that Massa showed how to get MP3 support back on the Wii. Why did Nintendo remove the MP3 support when they officially tells you how to get the MP3 support back?


But just because i have understanding for these things doesnt necessarily mean that i am defending Nintendo. I dont own a Wii yet and i probably wouldnt have used my Wii for playing MP3s and/or DVD movies either if i owned one, so i am fairly neutral to those decitions. It is basically the same with the removal of the OtherOS feature from the PS3. I can understand that Sony removed this feature in an attempt to prevent piracy on the PS3, but that doesnt neceesarily means that i am defending Sony. I never used the OtherOS feature on my PS3, so i am also fairly neutral to this decition.


Maybe my opinions could be understood and/or defined as some type of defending, and i actually wouldnt disagree with this to be honest, because i guess that you can say that i am defending Nintendo and Sony in some kind of way, but i it is not like i am saying "Nintendo or Sony is doing everything right!" and defend the companies big time in this way (like being part of a Defence Force or anything like that) if you know what i mean? I know that you didnt say anything against my opinions about this (at least not what i have seen), so this isnt aimed toward anything that you said, i am just talking generally here just to underline that.

If Sony had included OtherOS but never advertised the feature in an attempt to sell systems to people for use as (basically) a PC, then it wouldn't be this big a deal...it would pass virtually unnoticed like Nintendo's dumb update did.

Was the OtherOS feature really adverticed in a way to attempt to sell more systems? I cant remember to have seen OtherOS being adverticed in any ads etc., but i probably havnt seen every PS3 ad, so maybe the OtherOS feature was adverticed? I just checked my european 60GB PS3 box and i dont see anything mentioned about OtherOS on the box. I also read through the PS3 manual that was included and i didnt see one word mentioned about the OtherOS feature, but i didnt really read the manual very carefully, so i might have missed it.


The article that i linked to earlier (this article) says that the OtherOS feature was mentioned in the PS3 manual, but that the feature was never commercially adverticed. Maybe Sony did mention it throught interviews etc. that the PS3 had the OtherOS feature, but does this goes as adverticement? In some way i guess it does, but is it enough adverticement as an attempt to sell more systems? Maybe Nintendo also mentioned in some earlier interviews that the Wii had MP3 support? But i dont know if Nintendo did that though, but if they did, would that be some sort of adverticement as well as an attempt to sell more systems?


I wonder if the removal of the OtherOS would have been a bit more unnoticed if it hadnt been used for exploit to hack the PS3. The OtherOS was removed from the PS3 Slim several of months ago and i cant remember it being that much talk about it then as it is now. But when the PS3 Slim came out, then the older PS3 models still had the OtherOS feature, but now all PS3 models dont have the OtherOS feature (unless you dont update the firmware), so maybe this is why people didnt talk that much about the removal of the OtherOS feature when it was removed from the PS3 Slim? But i dont know.

 

[Drastic]

So whats the deal with the DNS thing to bypass the FW? Pros/Cons plz. If I continue to use that, will something happen? If I can make a DNS setting on my router so that my PS3 can use it and be safer or can I remain using the one posted here?

You want to change dns on the ps3, not router.

 

[test_account]

No way. I dont think they'll go that far [ actually I haven't heard anyone banned from PSN so far ]. They removed a feature and they'll ban you if you still want to use it? Why would they do that, I'm not Geohotz I'm not trying to hack PS3 via Linux, I'm harmless .

It says in the PS3 EULA something about that you arent allowed to modify the firmware, so if Sony somehow can detect that you run custom firmware on the PS3, i guess that this could be a reason enough to ban because it is a violation of the EULA. But i have no idea if this type of banning would be legal or if Sony would ban even if they could detect custom PS3 firmware though.

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Wii_Linux

Ah, cool that they got Linux up and running on the Wii The last time i read about it (1-2 years ago or so), Linux on the Wii was still under development i think, so i didnt know that they managed to run Linux on the Wii now, that is cool

 

[Fafalada]

It wouldn't make a big difference, granted, but the PS3Linux scene would be different today if the RSX were enabled from day 1, don't you think?

Maybe. But if Sony left the thing driverless like they did on PS2, I doubt it would change things dramatically.

Don't you think Sony had something similar in mind, but decided otherwise further down the road? I don't know.

It always seemed academic driven to me, so I don't believe anyone thought of things beyond "it's opensource, free, community will come". Which may be noble, but it also missed the point.

 

[JambiBum]

Absolutely. But when people who do complain start getting results, it won't be long before the wider PS3-owning community starts to discover that there's a free money party.

Damn you and your Europe laws. I want 100 dollars




Seriously though, bravo sir. Bravo.

 

[Magnus]

Just wanted to pop my head in and pat iapteus on the back for winning something here. Wasn't following the thread and only learned about the victory from a gaming blog. :lol

Power to the people.

 

[Massa]

Was the OtherOS feature really adverticed in a way to attempt to sell more systems? I cant remember to have seen OtherOS being adverticed in any ads etc., but i probably havnt seen every PS3 ad, so maybe the OtherOS feature was adverticed? I just checked my european 60GB PS3 box and i dont see anything mentioned about OtherOS on the box. I also read through the PS3 manual that was included and i didnt see one word mentioned about the OtherOS feature, but i didnt really read the manual very carefully, so i might have missed it.


...


I wonder if the removal of the OtherOS would have been a bit more unnoticed if it hadnt been used for exploit to hack the PS3. The OtherOS was removed from the PS3 Slim several of months ago and i cant remember it being that much talk about it then as it is now. But when the PS3 Slim came out, then the older PS3 models still had the OtherOS feature, but now all PS3 models dont have the OtherOS feature (unless you dont update the firmware), so maybe this is why people didnt talk that much about the removal of the OtherOS feature when it was removed from the PS3 Slim? But i dont know.

OtherOS was advertised publically, on playstation.com and with (among other examples) Phil Harrison saying it is (was) one of the most powerful things about the PS3.

And the reason people are talking about this much is because Sony's doing something illegal. Removing features from new revisions of a product is not illegal, removing features from products you already sold and cashed in from is. I couldn't care less about geohot and whatever he's doing, I never bought any product from him.

 

[missile]

// PS3 Owner Refunded (Without Return) for Missing Other OS
http://www.playstationuniversity.com/ps3-owner-refunded-without-return-for-missing-other-os-3555/

 

[charlequin]

The link to the EULA is usually printed on the box.

Decidedly not good enough. Court decisions that have ruled EULAs enforceable have done so pretty clearly under the principle that the user is explicitly and unavoidably confronted with them in the process of gaining access to the software, either with a pop-up window that one must click through to run/install the software or a printed EULA surrounding the software's physical media such that the user has no option but to see it before opening the product. A tiny printed note with a web address telling you that you implicitly agree to what's printed on the other end is pretty clearly an unreasonable contract of adhesion and no one's actually going to legally support that even if they do consider properly-formed EULAs to be legit.

And since there aren't any, there is nothing to supersede the EULA.

But my point (seriously, go back and read my post! it's totally in there) is that the EULA is irrelevant either way. Either there's no consumer protection against factor X in the US and therefore Sony is safe on the issue without any mention of it in the EULA or there is a protection against it and any EULA term that would counteract it is automatically void.

 

[PSGames]

// PS3 Owner Refunded (Without Return) for Missing Other OS
http://www.playstationuniversity.com/ps3-owner-refunded-without-return-for-missing-other-os-3555/

Amazing work iapetus. This needs to get more attention. If you have a PS3 and are from Europe you can get a refund without returning your PS3. Everyone should be taking advantage of this!

 

[missile]

Maybe. But if Sony left the thing driverless like they did on PS2,

Sometimes I think it would be better that way, leaving everything to the
(Linux) community, just a plain naked PS3 to play with, no proprietary
hypervisor, no proprietary drivers at all, just a plain naked system which
starts to read code from a specific address on startup. Sure, the user base
would shrink to 10^{-35}% of its current size, but still! xD Anyway, that
will never going to happen. One would be able to virtualize the GameOS. xD

I doubt it would change things dramatically.

I think everything depends on momentum. But you are right. It would be
pretty tough to re-ignite the momentum again even if the RSX could be
made accessible under the OtherOS today. But who knows? I think
nouveau (an open-source nvidia driver) can be made running under the
OtherOS giving "at least" 2d hardware acceleration.

From your perspective, what do you believe was / is 'the' reason Sony has
disable the RSX for the OtherOS?

 

[iapetus]

Amazing work iapetus. This needs to get more attention. If you have a PS3 and are from Europe you can get a refund without returning your PS3. Everyone should be taking advantage of this!

Your mileage may vary. Some people have taken very similar approaches to Amazon and not got a refund (and I'd like to clarify that I don't yet have the £84 in my bank account, though it shows up as a credit on the purchase info).

 

[Clear]

From your perspective, what do you believe was / is 'the' reason Sony has
disable the RSX for the OtherOS?

Its probably because clever use of shader programming could be used to engineer exploits.
The CELL is a secure chip design, RSX is not.

 

[deepbrown]

Your mileage may vary. Some people have taken very similar approaches to Amazon and not got a refund (and I'd like to clarify that I don't yet have the £84 in my bank account, though it shows up as a credit on the purchase info).

They'd be cleverer to give you £84 credit to spend on their goods, rather than cash.

 

[iapetus]

They'd be cleverer to give you £84 credit to spend on their goods, rather than cash.

I'd happily take that - got plenty of stuff I'd like to buy from Amazon.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Your mileage may vary. Some people have taken very similar approaches to Amazon and not got a refund (and I'd like to clarify that I don't yet have the £84 in my bank account, though it shows up as a credit on the purchase info).

Yeah, you're famous now (hello Kotaku) and the one true hope of refunding!

 

[missile]

In one of his comments geohot revealed how CFW 3.21OO works;

... The method is simple, it's hybrid firmware. The system is running an
older kernel + hypervisor (Core OS), and the VSH (Visual Shell) aka XMB is
3.21. The trick is to also replace the module which displays the Other OS
menu option, with one that displays it.

Currently, he is waiting for his Infectus chip (a NAND flasher) to arrive.
The idea is to flash CFW 3.21OO onto the Slim's flash memory where the
firmware is located.

I don't wanna spoil the party, but it was found out that an installed
firmware on a phat PS3 is bound to it, meaning, the flash image does not boot
on any other (phat) PS3. Well, I hope he will succeed. Having the OtherOS on
the Slim is the best thing I can imagine, everything makes sense than;
PlayStation HOMEbrew.

 

[missile]

Its probably because clever use of shader programming could be used to engineer exploits.
The CELL is a secure chip design, RSX is not.

I was exactly thinking the same!

 

[iapetus]

I can't see this working on the Slim - the reason for dropping support on that platform was the effort that would need to go into building support for the new hardware revision, and this was before the whole 'security' furore.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm sure it's been done to death but it's worth remembering that it is a matter of principle. It doesn't matter that it affects a small number of people, Sony are at fault. A retroactive effect of removing such a feature, which was a selling point for some, is a big deal. It's not just people complaining for the sake of it, iapetus is spot on about the rights of the consumer and I don't see why this should be an exception.

Here here. Completely agree. Now the problem is rounding up more than 20 gamers with principles. I really hope Sony don't get away with this but with the attitude seemingly "Well, you didn't use Linux anyway" I don't have much hope. Why are gamers such shit consumers?

 

[cedric69]

Here here. Completely agree. Now the problem is rounding up more than 20 gamers with principles. I really hope Sony don't get away with this but with the attitude seemingly "Well, you didn't use Linux anyway" I don't have much hope. Why are gamers such shit consumers?

Problem is the majority of consumers are shitty consumers. Companies abuse them and they never take action.

Heck, half of kotaku's comments are defending Sony and condemning iapetus. The world really spins backwards sometimes.

 

[dogmaan]

I can't see this working on the Slim - the reason for dropping support on that platform was the effort that would need to go into building support for the new hardware revision, and this was before the whole 'security' furore.

I wouldn't be surprised if it worked 'out the box', given Sony's recent actions

 

[XMonkey]

Well then...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ps3-owners-eligible-for-cash-refund-after-other-os-removal/

 

[deepbrown]

Well then...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ps3-owners-eligible-for-cash-refund-after-other-os-removal/

Gold =)

 

[Flek]

Well then...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ps3-owners-eligible-for-cash-refund-after-other-os-removal/

just tried the same with amazon germay though … lets see ;O

 

[CrankyJay]

Heh, it even got his name WRONG.

 

[iapetus]

Well then...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ps3-owners-eligible-for-cash-refund-after-other-os-removal/

Who is this 'lapetus' of which they speak?

Edit: Curses, beaten to recognising how to spell my own name!

 

[brotkasten]

It's on Gizmodo as well.

Gizmodo: PS3 Owners May Get Cash Back After OtherOS Uninstall

 

[No_Style]

iapetus' tale is making the rounds. Kotaku has it as well and they got his name right.

Way to go, NeoGAF forum moderator "iapetus"!

Better late than never too.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Who is this 'lapetus' of which they speak?

Edit: Curses, beaten to recognising how to spell my own name!

 

[koji]

Hehehe, awesome that it's becoming "news". :lol

GJ iapetus!

 

[deepbrown]

Who is this 'lapetus' of which they speak?

Edit: Curses, beaten to recognising how to spell my own name!

http://digg.com/playstation/PS3_Owner_Refunded_Without_Return_for_Missing_Other_OS
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ps3-owner-gets-other-os-refund
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/09/ps3-owners-eligible-for-cash-refund-after-other-os-removal/
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ps3-user-refunded-for-other-os-removal
http://kotaku.com/5512880/playstation-3-owner-gets-a-100-refund-for-losing-linux
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2010/04/09/amazon-gives-ps3-refunds-for-linux-removal/1
http://gizmodo.com/5513235/ps3-owne...modo/full+(Gizmodo)&utm_content=Google+Reader

PSUni and Gaf did well

 

[Silly.Mikey]

Because THIS will prevent piracy.

 

[mrklaw]

Because this sets a precedent for a hardware manufacturer to remotely disable an advertised feature of the hardware that they had previously committed to maintaining, in violation of European law. I don't care what that feature is, or whether I want to use it personally, they should not be allowed to get away with it.



Because they sold the PS3 as being capable of running Linux, and claimed it was one of the most powerful features of the device. They don't have to actively support the community, but likewise they can't just remove that capability.

how long do they need to keep features alive for? could the same be applied to the likes of EA for turning their servers off too quickly (they advertise multiplayer on their game boxes)?


I like this though. Didn't sony save money importing PS3s into the EU partly because of the linux option affecting duty rates?

 

[Danj]

Just wanted to pop my head in and pat iapteus on the back for winning something here. Wasn't following the thread and only learned about the victory from a gaming blog. :lol

Power to the people.

It made Engadget now, iapetus is really starting to hit the big time. Now all we need is a Twitter campaign to suck the mainstream media in.

EDIT: beaten

 

[wsippel]

W r o n g .
You can't reverse engineer shit because of the DMCA, not because of the EULA.

Not only is the DMCA completely irrelevant in most of the world, you're mixing things up. The DMCA prohibits reverse engineering if it's done to enable piracy. Which isn't the case here. I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a great source, but in this case, it sums it up nicely:

Reverse engineering software or hardware systems which is done for the purposes of interoperability (for example, to support undocumented file formats or undocumented hardware peripherals) is mostly believed to be legal, though patent owners often contest this and attempt to stifle any reverse engineering of their products for any reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering

It's also legal if it's done for research purposes and security auditing. That's why guys like Geohot or Team Twiizers are never charged, even though their identities are known. If you take the Wii example, what Twiizers did (Twilight Princess exploit, Homebrew Channel, BootMii) was probably legal, whereas Waninkokos works (cIOS and HD Loader) are a lot more questionable.