LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
What? This ain't a fanboy thing. The CELL architecture and some of the findings within this thread are genuinely relevant/interesting information.bj00rn_ said:
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PS3 games list & SPE usages
- Thread starter MikeB
- Start date
AranhaHunter
Banned
Seems like LBP seems to have a big install as does Resistance 1 and 2 and Ratchet, maybe R1 and Ratchet have big installs now because of patches, but IDK why R2 has a big install......but the worse one from 3rd parties is HSG OOB.
The SPUs don't have separate cache memory. All loads and stores go straight to memory but it is very very fast to do so.MikeB said:
For what it's worth, all of the Cell docs are freely available from IBM; they have very detailed specs, assembly language docs, etc. on their website.
AranhaHunter
Banned
Tntnnbltn said:
Typo, should've read 1st Party.
womfalcs3 said:
That's pretty big based on that post by MikeB about the reason for the installs, R1 is excusable because of all the patches though.
H_Prestige
Banned
Cool thread. Unfortunately I don't understand much of it.
But what's the status of the Crystal Tools/FFXIII now? Can it really be doing much with the SPEs since it's multiplatform?
But what's the status of the Crystal Tools/FFXIII now? Can it really be doing much with the SPEs since it's multiplatform?
AranhaHunter
Banned
H_Prestige said:
I'm safely assuming that FFXIII will not look as good as Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, GOWIII, GT5, etc
Colonel Nelson
Member
Wow, how have I never seen this thread before? Awesome work OP, and keep it up.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Serious business here! :lol :lol :lolbcn-ron said:
Not only do you get the chicks but you get the latest CELL based programming lingo all at the produce department.
AranhaHunter
Banned
bcn-ron said:
Based on what other posters, and yourself, have said.
Mr.Potato Head
Banned
proposition said:
Your fucking dense dude
Try telling that to all the kids in ToysRUs last friday, all the mom's, dad's, uncles, aunts,etc jumping onto the console bandwagon lately..mostly credited to the Nintendo Wii ...i think your missing one HUGE point... your referring to the more "hardcore" gamer..not the casual gamer..the casual gamer that means everything to sales...oh wait, your banned, nm :lol
But one last thing..this is what i been trying to say in Gaf over the last few weeks and a few hostile people been pretty pissed at me for saying it..but you know, to the fanboy, sometimes the truth hurts and thats exactly why they got all charged up at me..because i simply said that its one reason why the console is just a much better gaming platform then the PC now days.. why? Ease of use, no hassle with drivers, computability issues, conflicts,etc... most casual gamers do NOT know how to tweak a pc game to run properly...im sorry but the PC platform is far far more difficult to the casual gamer then a console is...this is why the console dwarfs pc game sales...sure some company's blame piracy that may be part why but i think the bigger picture here is how difficult its become to get your average pc game to run well. Crysis was a HUGE headach..i know of 3 people that bought Crysis for the PC and constantly had to call me up for help getting it to run and only come to find out..their new dell's,HP's,etc were incapable of running the damn game or there were driver issues,etc..yeah its their fault for buying the game in the first place but come on now... this sort of thing was WIDE SPREAD! IM a pc gamer..i had a few apples, Amiga 500, C64,etc..i love pc's but now days..its just not what it use to be as far as gaming goes...in a way i regret the money i spent on my Qx9650, evga 9800 GX2, the 4gb ddr3 ram,etc..
And then we got the visuals here.. consoles can produce visuals comparable to ANYTHING out there on the pc right now..even on very high end PC's... Consoles can do those kind of visuals...this is another area where a big handful of some members in Gaf attacked me big time for saying this.... I think they should of took a peak at that Kill Zone 2 Media thread before they attacked me..that game is living proof that consoles can go head to head with any high end pc today in terms of visuals...im not suggesting consoles are more powerful overall then a High End pc.... im just saying when it comes to videogames, Consoles hold their own so why on earth would casual gamers would want to spend big bucks for a high end pc that cost over a grand when they can get a console with a price tag at 200 bucks or few a hundred more..get a console with a bluray player?
That is EXACTLY why the PC as a gaming platform is lagging way behind consoles right now... i think some hardcore pc gamers absolute HATE to read this kind of stuff im saying..they really do, they get down right violent with their replys at some message boards..hell even in here i had a few threats pm'd to me over such remarks in the past..i shit you not...:lol but you know that old saying..the F'n truth hurts some fanboys
H_Prestige
Banned
Kagari said:
I know, but if they're going to port it over to the 360 they probably aren't thinking of 'working' the Cell like Sony 1st party is doing. I'm sure they want to make both versions as identical as possible. I hope I'm wrong though and that SE has used the last few years to create something on par with what Sony has been making recently.
H_Prestige said:
Considering they were already programming to the Cell for the past 2 years or whatever, I think it'll turn out fine. One point I remember specifically was that they had already gotten 4 of the SPEs doing tasks or something like that. You have to remember they started out with exclusivity in mind, and that the port didn't come into play until just a few months ago. Who knows what kind of issues they're going to have when it comes time to port. Namco certainly is with their Cell-base built Tekken 6.
AranhaHunter
Banned
CHRP718 said:it is
In Tetsuya Nomura We Trust
A little OT but wasn't Nomura pissed off at SE? Or am I completely wrong here?
AranhaHunter
Banned
Diablos said:
Yes he did, but I don't know if you want one of your best employees upset at your company.
AranhaHunter
Banned
Onix said:
I actually enjoyed reading some of this stuff and it made sense why we're getting so many huge installs on the PS3, it still doesn't make sense why exclusive games are getting over 100MB of install just to run the game though (before patches).
AranhaHunter said:
It isn't 'just to run the game' though. I mean, they could have not done it, but the penalty would be more load time. The reason the PS3 has an HDD mandatory (like the original Xbox) is so devs know it will be there. From a dev's perspective, it's just part of the system.
Calen said:
"Atomic Cache Unit
Never heard of it right?
Well its one of my favorite things on the PS3 and gets little love cos its one of those tiny features that make life so much nicer."
Read Deano's full article here:
http://blog.deanoc.com/?p=96
Either way, I don't see how sub-GB installs are even a concern anymore. Ninja Gaiden Sigma's 2GB+ install, yeah (even though optional), Capcom's mandatory 5GB installs definitely. That's just annoying to wait through. But we're talking about one-time installs that take between fifteen seconds and a minute. There are games with publisher intros and middleware splash screens that amount to more than that.
If developers can make their games run great without any installs at all, awesome, but if they're already down to these low levels, I wouldn't want them to keep trying hard to reduce it further. As you said, the HDD is a system component and it's there to be taken advantage of.
If developers can make their games run great without any installs at all, awesome, but if they're already down to these low levels, I wouldn't want them to keep trying hard to reduce it further. As you said, the HDD is a system component and it's there to be taken advantage of.
AranhaHunter
Banned
Onix said:
Yeah but other first party developers have been able to get their games up and running smoothly with no load times and with a smaller install, I guess the plausible explanation as to why some 1st/2nd parties had to have some large (>100MB) install is because they had to rush to market, HSG and LBP were rushed to market and Insomniac probably rushes their games a little too with their 1 game a year plan. I guess a good example of rushing to market would be Motorstorm and Motorstorm PR, Motorstorm PR has smaller load time, has split screen, is a bigger game and has a smaller install.
After reading what MikeB posted I can definitely understand a little better why MP games require such large installs on the PS3.
Conventional cache memory would have some effect on local loads and stores. The stuff Deano references (and yes it is really cool and useful) only helps with atomic DMAs to and from main memory, or DMAs to and from other SPUs. When you say "cache memory" it implies a particular function that this stuff just doesn't provide.MikeB said:
Edited to add: Please don't take this as any kind of criticism of the SPUs or the PS3. I love working on them, they're super fast, but they don't have local cache because they don't need it - effectively all of SPU local memory is crazy-ass fast.
UntoldDreams
Member
Calen said:
Well to be fair what Deano highlighted clearly fits the definition of cache as well.
It just doesn't fit exactly what you seem to be saying.
Orlics said:
Yes and actually designing code for the SPEs will result into code which runs better (more efficiently and better designed for multi-threading) on other CPUs as well. Of course the Cell has much more processing performance than the Xenon, so the devs probably need to cut down some things on the 360, but the biggest consideration I think will probably be how to span content over several DVDs.
FirewalkR said:
Great thanks, I have added those and other comments regarding Killzone 2 to the original post. If anyone finds more, please share.
Personally I think games like Killzone 2 and God of War 3 will end most 360 vs PS3 tech disagreements between fans. A bit like the Shadow of the Beast ended the fierce ST vs Amiga flamewars with regard to gaming 3 years after the original Amiga hardware launched. Things became a lot less heated since then and technology could be discussed more freely and openly. There was some confusion as early ST to Amiga ports ran a bit better on the original ST hardware the games were designed for, later Amiga games took great advantage of the hardware.
DCharlie
Banned
lol what?! no it didn't.
That war raged on and on and on.
Shadow of the Beast didn't stop a single damned thing and there was certainly no nice little tea party of ST fans going "ah, game is up! better just concede - now, what a GREAT piece of kit that Amiga is!"
didn't happen.
same as above, it won't. Seriously. Even if it's night and day, it WON'T happen.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
MikeB said:Great thanks, I have added those and other comments regarding Killzone 2 to the original post. If anyone finds more, please share.
Personally I think games like Killzone 2 and God of War 3 will end most 360 vs PS3 tech disagreements between fans. A bit like the Shadow of the Beast ended the fierce ST vs Amiga flamewars with regard to gaming 3 years after the original Amiga hardware launched. Things became a lot less heated since then and technology could be discussed more freely and openly. There was some confusion as early ST to Amiga ports ran a bit better on the original ST hardware the games were designed for, later Amiga games took great advantage of the hardware.
Wow you are back, and posting at full force =P.
DCharlie said:
It did with regard to gaming, the only arguments left were that the Atari ST came with MIDI ports out of the box and you would have to upgrade Amiga for that and that the ST was being sold cheaper.
But of course the Paula sound chip was much better to begin with and Amigas had far better sound upgrades available, so technical discussions as such on Atari forums died out pretty quickly. Shadow of the Beast was quite an eye opener for ST fans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ic3Fy-tVY
OS discussions died out pretty quickly as well, as TOS was only single tasking like MacOS and MSDOS at the time.
Also funny Amiga 500 (lowend) vs high end PCs (with mandatory harddrive installs, much more required memory and such, often released years later when suitable upgrades became available):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cETl8PhUy_E
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Am I reading this correctly? Did he bring the ST vs. Amiga shit into 2008? Or have I travelled back in time to 1990?
I wonder if in 2018 we'll still have people debating about how UE3 games looked better on the 360 than on the PS3. :lol
I wonder if in 2018 we'll still have people debating about how UE3 games looked better on the 360 than on the PS3. :lol
Mohonky
Member
MikeB said:
A game that Sony have been hurling money and manpower at to showcase the hardware and one we haven't even seen yet?
I don't think it's going to prove anything much beyond time + resources = shit hot showcase. I can't think of any game that has been demoed and built almost primarily to showcase hardware muscle. Sony basically backed themselves into the corner with that CG they were showing off in 05 and they've been trying hard to prove the doubters wrong. The game does look fantastic as a result but then that was pretty much the idea the entire time. They've been optimising the shit out of that engine for what feels like an eternity now while most big name 360 exclusives have been running on multiplatform engines that have either been optimised or in the case of Gears 2, revised with updates.
I and I'm sure many others don't doubt when it comes to the crunch, the PS3 is capable of more, but I don't think that difference is great enough to really distinguish a straight forward call on that one. I don't think you'll see any multiplatforms this generation where developers push one system so far the other won't be able to atleast replicate the experience or that the difference between the two will be night and day. Like when iD ported Doom 3 to Xbox but weren't willing or able to tone it down enough for PS2. I just don't see it being that big a difference.
Dev talent and resources will be a larger factor in visual quality rather than hardware.