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[Clouseau]

Well you won't discover it ever - as your TV will show games in 1080i when it gets 720p input from PS3

That's the heart of the problem. Some of the CRT HDTVs (many produced by Sony themselves) won't accept 720p signals. So the PS3 is going to send those games to the TV in 480p since it won't upscale the game to 1080i.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

There really is no point in getting a PS3 then, for me anyway.

Can this be fixed or not?

 

[Clouseau]

I'd assume they could fix it with a firmware update of some sort. The reason it is so easily accomplished on the 360 is because it has an outboard scaler that scales everything to one resolution before handing it off to the television. So you just select that resolution in the dashboard and go with it. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether the PS3 has this type of scaling ability yet.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

Watching next gen systems launch, and discovering their little quirks is just so much fun to watch. :lol

 

[KeithFranklin]

Just seems to me that Sony shipped the PS3 before it was done.

The scaler problem.
The online service.
The ability to produce units.
The large update of the OS when you first start it up.

Doesnt seem like much testing has been done on the unit. Will be interesting to see how they hold up over the next several months. What other issues will be discovered.

 

[3rdman]

I'd assume they could fix it with a firmware update of some sort. The reason it is so easily accomplished on the 360 is because it has an outboard scaler that scales everything to one resolution before handing it off to the television. So you just select that resolution in the dashboard and go with it. I don't think anyone knows for sure whether the PS3 has this type of scaling ability yet.

Does the PS3 even have an outboard scaler???

 

[Clouseau]

Does the PS3 even have an outboard scaler???

The fact that it is forcing the output resolution to be whatever the game is supporting suggests that it doesn't, but who really knows what's inside the thing. A magic firmware update could fix this for all we know. We know it has the ability to output any HD resolution that it wants to. I think it's going to be up to the game programmers to support 720p AND 1080i output myself...hell even throw in 1080p support while they are at it. I believe this is how RR7 works. It supports all the resolutions, while Resistance is 720p or "NO HD FOR YOU!".

 

[Elios83]

The only short term problem is supply and the european launch

 

[Lord Error]

That's the heart of the problem. Some of the CRT HDTVs (many produced by Sony themselves) won't accept 720p signals. So the PS3 is going to send those games to the TV in 480p since it won't upscale the game to 1080i.

It will work with his. More recent Sony CRTs (he said he bought it a year ago) accept 720p and it looks really great on them. Only the oldest Sony HD CRTs don't accept 720p.

There really is no point in getting a PS3 then, for me anyway.

Your TV doesn't support 720p? I thought you had XBR960 or something like that.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

It will work with his. More recent Sony CRTs (he said he bought it a year ago) accept 720p and it looks really great on them. Only the oldest Sony CRTs don't accept 720p.

I can't get the warping out of my 720p. I tried it with my Sony Upscaler DVD player and the warping was still there. Besides, I would rather have it at 1080i.

 

[rs7k]

I play my 360 using 720p anyway, and my TV is native 1080i. If it looks fine on my TV, can I assume the same with my PS3?

 

[Lord Error]

I can't get the warping out of my 720p. I tried it with my Sony Upscaler DVD player and the warping was still there. Besides, I would rather have it at 1080i.

Just go through the service menu, that should be easy to fix. Just make sure to write down the current values in case you forget them.

720p on that TV, to me looks better than 1080i when the input picture is from a PC game with 2-8x antialiasing. There's a lot less interlace flicker.


Dark, he's got some picture warping problem on his TV when displaying 720p input.
vvvvvv

 

[dark10x]

I can't get the warping out of my 720p. I tried it with my Sony Upscaler DVD player and the warping was still there. Besides, I would rather have it at 1080i.

Why? It's not as if your TV can actually RESOLVE a full 1080i signal. The resolution is lower. The scaler Sony used in their CRTs does a fantastic job and there is really no reason to play in 1080i over 720p. One of my TVs is a Sony CRT and I find that 720p looks better than 1080i in all cases.

 

[mrklaw]

use the GS+EE and associated 32MB Ram as an outboard scaler. You know it makes sense Sony

 

[DaCocoBrova]

It will work with his. More recent Sony CRTs (he said he bought it a year ago) accept 720p and it looks really great on them. Only the oldest Sony HD CRTs don't accept 720p.


Your TV doesn't support 720p? I thought you had XBR960 or something like that.

No I have a SONY 46" WIDESCREEN HDTV - KP-46WT500 and a Panasonic Tau CT-30WX54.

The Sony takes 720p down to 48-p, and the Panny doesn't do anything.

I play my 360 using 720p anyway, and my TV is native 1080i. If it looks fine on my TV, can I assume the same with my PS3?

That seems rather pointless. Are you even certain that it's being upscaled to 1080i, and not the other direction (480p)?

 

[CueTheMusic]

I can't get the warping out of my 720p. I tried it with my Sony Upscaler DVD player and the warping was still there. Besides, I would rather have it at 1080i.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=531494&page=1&pp=20

 

[dark10x]

No I have a SONY 46" WIDESCREEN HDTV - KP-46WT500 and a Panasonic Tau CT-30WX54.

The Sony takes 720p down to 48-p, and the Panny doesn't do anything.

You have a Sony RPTV, though, right? Marco is talking about their direct view CRTs, which handle 720p VERY VERY well. It most certainly does NOT drop the resolution to 480p.

Panasonic never allowed for 720p with ANY of their CRT based products, however.

That seems rather pointless.

Why exactly?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Well, I'm not going to rush out and buy another display device just to appease the PS3. I'll just have to use it on my widescreen monitor instead.

Speaking of which, what are the VGA/DVI resolution options and how does it look?

Why exactly?

Unnecessary scaling. No way it would look better than a 1080i image on a native 1080i display.

There does not exist a Sony HDTV from a year ago that won't accept 720p. I'm pretty sure there haven't been any for several model years.

Accepting the signal is one thing. Displaying it is another.

 

[Raistlin]

I would be SOOOO pissed if I came home with my PS3 and discovered that my less than 1 year old Sony CRT HDTV can not display PS3 games in 1080i.

There does not exist a Sony HDTV from a year ago that won't accept 720p. I'm pretty sure there haven't been any for several model years.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well I'm screwed. I have a Samsung CRT that doesn't accept 720p signals. My 360 games look EXCELLENT in 1080i, however.

F*** you Sony. I didn't know about this until right now. Forget camping now, it's pointless for me. This is inexcusable and downright retarded. Sony has managed to provide the WORST launch ever, hands down.

 

[dark10x]

Unnecessary scaling. No way it would look better than a 1080i image on a native 1080i display.

You're wrong.

You need to realize that there really are VERY few native 1080i displays on the market. MOST "1080i" displays can't even begin to resolve a full 1080i image.

There are very few CRTs on the market that will accept 720p, however, and those that do (Sony direct views) do it very well. XBOX360 and PC games look much better at 720p than at 1080i on those Sony sets. With XBOX360, most games are rendered internally at 720p anyways even if you output at 1080i...so there is always SOME scaling going on. You can't escape it. It just so happens that the scaling done by these Sony sets results in fantastic image quality.

Accepting the signal is one thing. Displaying it is another.

Sony DIRECT VIEW CRTs do not downscale the image to 480p. You seem to assume that the performance of your RPTV applies to all Sony sets and that is absolutely 100% untrue.

720p produces superior results on these sets when compared to 1080i. No question about it.

 

[Raistlin]

use the GS+EE and associated 32MB Ram as an outboard scaler. You know it makes sense Sony

A dev will probably have to answer this ...

Can the PS2 output a framebuffer from main RAM, or only from the EDRAM?



If it is the EDRAM, then there is no way the EE/GS could be used for this.

If it can output the framebuffer from main RAM ... then it may be possible. It matters how fast you can get the data from GDR to the PS2 main RAM though. There could be some serious lag.

 

[Lord Error]

Unnecessary scaling. No way it would look better than a 1080i image on a native 1080i display.

Very few games render natively in 1080p/i to begin with, so in his case they would get scaled somewhere anyways. Be it internal scaler in X360, or his TV.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Just go through the service menu, that should be easy to fix. Just make sure to write down the current values in case you forget them.

720p on that TV, to me looks better than 1080i when the input picture is from a PC game with 2-8x antialiasing. There's a lot less interlace flicker.


Dark, he's got some picture warping problem on his TV when displaying 720p input.
vvvvvv

What is it that I am looking for in the service menu? I really want to have this fixed so when I do have a PS3, it won't be a problem. In other words, what is the likely source of warping? And won't this alter my 1080i settings?

 

[Raistlin]

That seems rather pointless. Are you even certain that it's being upscaled to 1080i, and not the other direction (480p)?

How is it pointless?

Nearly all 360 game are 720p (or less) ... so when you set your 360 to output 1080i ... it's doing the exact same thing (scaling 720p to 1080oi) as the TV.


It's basically one or the other doing the scaling/interlacing.

 

[Raistlin]

Accepting the signal is one thing. Displaying it is another.

Most 1080i TV's that accept 720p upscale to 1080i instead of downscaling to 480.

Unfortunately ... you have one of the models that downscales.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Most 1080i TV's that accept 720p upscale to 1080i instead of downscaling to 480.

Unfortunately ... you have one of the models that downscales.

That's all on Sony. There's no reason why a machine like the PS3 can't accommodate for these sets. I'm beyond pissed here. I refuse to buy a PS3 until they can get this resolved.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

You're wrong.

You need to realize that there really are VERY few native 1080i displays on the market. MOST "1080i" displays can't even begin to resolve a full 1080i image.

There are very few CRTs on the market that will accept 720p, however, and those that do (Sony direct views) do it very well. XBOX360 and PC games look much better at 720p than at 1080i on those Sony sets. With XBOX360, most games are rendered internally at 720p anyways even if you output at 1080i...so there is always SOME scaling going on. You can't escape it. It just so happens that the scaling done by these Sony sets results in fantastic image quality.

You give no proof/example of a scaled image being superior to a native one. For one, it's totally dependent on the scaler in use. Secondly, the source resolution has to be factored in as well (in the case of the 360, it's 720p with a few exceptions). I'm very clear on how all this works. Remember, I work in video by profession.

Sony DIRECT VIEW CRTs do not downscale the image to 480p. You seem to assume that the performance of your RPTV applies to all Sony sets and that is absolutely 100% untrue.

720p produces superior results on these sets when compared to 1080i. No question about it.

I never assumed anything because I was already well aware that the direct view sets handle 720p signals (scales to 1080i) and RPT don't. In fact you already mentioned that already in this very thread. That's not my focus since my set obviously isn't direct view.

 

[Lord Error]

What is it that I am looking for in the service menu? I really want to have this fixed so when I do have a PS#, it won't be a problem. In other words, what is the likely source of warping? And won't this alter my 1080i settings?

Hmmm, if I was at home, I'd fire up the service menu on my TV and look for the exact setting, but I'm not, so you'll have to read carefully the thread someone linked to above. Download PDF charts which tell you what parameter changes what. Much like on PC CRT monitors, you can change a lot of geometry distortions through this serice menu, I'm almost 100% sure there's a setting there that corrects the type of distortion you described.

\\\\\\
//////

That should be called parabolic distortion or something like that, but you may not be able to figure that out from the service menu shorthand names.

Keep in mind that you can't really screw anything up when changing those service menu parameters. Just memorize the current number on the setting, change it to see what happens, and then change back to the old number if you don't like the result.

I'm not 100% sure but I think that TV will keep the setting for each resolution, so your 1080i mode should stay as it is. Still, write down on paper the original value of anything you change. That way you can always revert back easily.

You give no proof/example of a scaled image being superior to a native one. For one, it's totally dependent on the scaler in use.

I can't give you a proof either (I would but I don't know how) but I can confirm that on my TV at least (30HS420 direct view CRT) the picture looks better and with less interlace flicker when displaying a 720p PC game or desktop, than when displaying the same image through 1080i output from a PC.

 

[Dracos]

How in the hell can Sony delay a system launch a year and still not be ready?

 

[nincompoop]

Well this just sucks ass, no way in hell am I buying a PS3 now if I can't even play games in HD resolutions on my 1080i HDTV.

 

[pcostabel]

A dev will probably have to answer this ...

Can the PS2 output a framebuffer from main RAM, or only from the EDRAM?

Only from EDRAM. Seriously, scaling a framebuffer shouldn't be an issue on PS3 if only the developers took the time to do it. I'm not sure what the problem is with Resistance, but I suspect is about memory (they mentioned they had to give up on 1080p because the later levels would not fit in memory). Ideally, Sony should just implement scaling in the OS, they have 64megs sitting there while you're playing the game. But for the time being, if this forces developer to properly support 1080p, it's not such a bad thing.

 

[Raistlin]

That's all on Sony. There's no reason why a machine like the PS3 can't accommodate for these sets. I'm beyond pissed here. I refuse to buy a PS3 until they can get this resolved.

I agree this sucks ... though I think before freaking out completely we should wait to see if there is a solution.



If there isn't though, yeah it blows.

Obviously Sony doesn't WANT to alienate consumers, so this obviously was a cost issue (they are already losing a ton).

They basically decided to support the majority of HDTVs now (and especially in the future).

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Only from EDRAM. Seriously, scaling a framebuffer shouldn't be an issue on PS3 if only the developers took the time to do it. I'm not sure what the problem is with Resistance, but I suspect is about memory (they mentioned they had to give up on 1080p because the later levels would not fit in memory). Ideally, Sony should just implement scaling in the OS, they have 64megs sitting there while you're playing the game. But for the time being, if this forces developer to properly support 1080p, it's not such a bad thing.

Bull crap it's not such a bad thing. I have a 1080i TV that won't accept 720p signals. This means that 480p is my maximum resolution for PS3 games right now. How in the hell does Sony think that's acceptable by any means?

 

[Raistlin]

You give no proof/example of a scaled image being superior to a native one.

There are basically no native 1080i games on 360 (DOA4?).

All of them are being scaled by the 360's scaler to 1080i ... it is no different than your TV doing it (if the TV supports it).

I never assumed anything because I was already well aware that the direct view sets handle 720p signals (scales to 1080i) and RPT don't.

Only some RPTV's downscale to 480p to my knowledge (some downscale to 540p ... and some do 1080i).

 

[Raistlin]

Only from EDRAM.

That was my assumption.

Seriously, scaling a framebuffer shouldn't be an issue on PS3 if only the developers took the time to do it. I'm not sure what the problem is with Resistance, but I suspect is about memory (they mentioned they had to give up on 1080p because the later levels would not fit in memory). Ideally, Sony should just implement scaling in the OS, they have 64megs sitting there while you're playing the game. But for the time being, if this forces developer to properly support 1080p, it's not such a bad thing.

I would assume scaling to 1080p is costly (memory, BW, and processing time)?

 

[manngc]

Bull crap it's not such a bad thing. I have a 1080i TV that won't accept 720p signals. This means that 480p is my maximum resolution for PS3 games right now. How in the hell does Sony think that's acceptable by any means?

This only applies to 720p games on PS3, games like RR7 support 1080i. Granted, I believe most games on PS3 will be 720p, so it's still going to be a major problem for you.

 

[dark10x]

You give no proof/example of a scaled image being superior to a native one.

A native image IS superior.

The problem is, we are talking about 1080i CRT based television here and 95% of these sets are unable to fully resolve a 1080i image. Therefore, the image appearing on your screen is not a full frame, native image.

There were a few true 1080i Mitsubishi RPTVs that used like 9 guns or something, but those are obviously not the norm. What's the point in discussing "native resolution" when the resolution you are talking about can't be resolved?

 

[rs7k]

No I have a SONY 46" WIDESCREEN HDTV - KP-46WT500 and a Panasonic Tau CT-30WX54.

The Sony takes 720p down to 48-p, and the Panny doesn't do anything.




That seems rather pointless. Are you even certain that it's being upscaled to 1080i, and not the other direction (480p)?

Oh yeah. It's definitely HD, just with less flicker than setting it on 1080i.

 

[open_mouth_]

surely sony can update this with a firmware update, right.... RIGHT?!?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

surely sony can update this with a firmware update, right.... RIGHT?!?

They better, or I'll never get one. Well, if I picked up a new TV that supported 720p I might, but I'm happy with my TV now and don't see myself replacing it for a few years at least.

 

[koam]

Yeah, "supply" and "price".

If they're having supply problems then price isn't an issue.

 

[Vangellis]

How in the hell can Sony delay a system launch a year and still not be ready?

Really, really bad upper management imo. People in board rooms making shit decisions. Makes you really question the structure of the company when you see all stupid shit Sony has done the last two years. They are a friggin PR nightmare. They launched the PS3 now since they was no backing out now regardless if they weren’t ready. Personally their short term/long term problem is vision, management, and horrible PR. They need to fix themselves from the inside. The Playstation brand is huge but they have been managing it with arrogance the last few years.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I'm almost 100% sure there's a setting there that corrects the type of distortion you described.

\\\\\\
//////

I believe I found it. It is LCP (Low CO Pin Cor). I willl try it when I get home. When GRAW came out, I calibrated my TV to 1080i and adjusted things so the GRAW Hud fit perfectly and without distortion. Plus, networks such as FOX and ESPN where having tickers cut in half prior to my calibration efforts. The 720 problem in all likelihood is a result of me adjusting the TV to fit a 1080i image evenly and with good Geometry. For some reason, I only have this bottome distortion with 720p. Plus, I must not notice it, but 1080is looks just as good as 720p to me.

The ONLY reason I am considering fixing this is because of this Sony PS3 glitch. When Sony patches the PS3 to upscale, I may just leave everything at 1080i.

 

[acksman]

Whats crazy, we probably won't be hearing to much about these issues until they are in hands of NA customers. Japan's HD saturation is MUCH higher than the US. You would be surprised how man people will be plugging their PS3 into an older HD or SD set.

This is really going to hurt Sony with the low shipments then the initial backlash from negative press that I'm sure will be to follow. I would not want to be an ebay scalper for the PS3. I just hope they get their firmware in order and can fix this issue.

Sony is under the microscope even more so than MS and Nin this generation. They are the industry leaders and any little screwup is going to be magnified 10X compared to Wii and 360's.

 

[JB1981]

A native image IS superior.

The problem is, we are talking about 1080i CRT based television here and 95% of these sets are unable to fully resolve a 1080i image. Therefore, the image appearing on your screen is not a full frame, native image.

There were a few true 1080i Mitsubishi RPTVs that used like 9 guns or something, but those are obviously not the norm. What's the point in discussing "native resolution" when the resolution you are talking about can't be resolved?

I have an XBR 960 and the difference between 720p and 1080i with the 360 is fairly negligible. 720p isn't "clearly" better or anything. In fact, 1080i is noticeably sharper and more defined, but it introduces other visual artifacts that I'm not crazy about. In stills or in game menus and such, 1080i is more pleasing to the eye. In motion, however, I prefer 720p - it's smoother overall and you can't see any scan lines.

 

[speculawyer]

That gives 360 a huge IQ advantage on SD TV's.

I stll maintain that people buying a PS3 who don't have an HDTV are being stupid. Get an HDTV first . . . until then, stick to your PS2.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

So HD to SD looks crap.

What about 1080 to 720? Do games rendered in 1080 lose a lot of detail as well?

 

[Stinkles]

I have a 32 inch Sony CRT this affects, but bluntly, I ain't using that giant bitch again until I can fix the (totally ruined) geometry. Anyone know the service menu cheat for a Sony KV-32FS320 and some tips on tweaking it?

 

[manngc]

If this issue is true, and is actually a hardware/design issue of the PS3, I'm just shocked that MS hasn't jump on this and stated things like "All 360 games are 1080p/i compatible, while only 1 of 14ish games are 1080p/i compatible." Basically use the 1080p issue right back at Sony. That would be pretty damn funny.

In actuality, this isn't a big issue unless you have an incompatible HDTV. I found out a co-worker has one of these, and so he will no longer be camping out for one...