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[joshschw]

I just got one as well, and it is the first PSP I have ever owned, although I have used display models prior. The PSPgo probably has the best screen of them all, that I have used.

To answer the question - it totally depends on the game and the colors being displayed. On certain solid colors in LocoRoco it has been REALLY noticeable, but in the couple other games I have played I don't really notice them. Even in LocoRoco it hasn;t beothered me enough that I mind them though.

I think it will depend on the person, I am much more sensitive to jerky slow framrates than tearing for example, but I know others are the opposite...

 

[Tellaerin]

Don't see them at all. Sometimes I wonder if I somehow ended up with a magical 3000, or if the people complaining about scanlines have a different screen than the one that ended up in mine.

 

[Suairyu]

Yes, that's true. I actually don't prefer the standard way of implementing scanlines, because it's just so fake looking. It's distracting, as you said. But with the more recent developments in CRT shadow mask/electron beam emulation, you can have a much more realistic experience. Instead of being essentially just lines overlaid onto the window, CRT emulation will reproduce the line bleed and blooming that help to blur the rows of pixels together, as on a real CRT.

Example:

Taken from this page, where there's a comparison of a lot of different shaders:

http://filthypants.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-emulator-pixel-shaders-crt-updated.html

That image doesn't look like a CRT, though, it looks like a photo of a CRT, which is noticeably different from how our human eyes perceive it.

Also, what CRTs were you guys gaming on that had that much curve to distort the image so much?

However, it is an impressive filter, I'll give it that. A lot of hard work has gone into creating that and even if I don't think it's achieving what it's meant to, I can appreciate the craftsmanship on display there.

 

[Fafalada]

Will I eventually stop seeing them, or what? How about you, GAF, do they bug you? Please, share your thoughts!

You're just seeing LCD-ghosting.
3K uses rotated RGB grid, and because one color component lags behind other two - it gives the perception of "line trails" instead of "solid blur".

Like with all LCDs, ghosting is color-dependent, so it varies a great deal with what's being displayed.
IMO the main issue is that the one area where EVERY PSP (including GO) ghosts the most obviously, is XMB. So it's easy to point and scream on first glance, particularly if you've grown to accept regular ghosting(however horrible it is in 2k/1k screens) as something "normal" -_- (I do hope Vita is the point where we finally put LCDs out of their misery).

 

[Special J]

no i think you're mistaking scanlines with interlacing artifacts.

i have a psp3000 and scanlines are typically not very visible, you can sorta see the pixel spacing gaps but only on grey or off whites.

it has to do with frame transitions, the psp3000 updates every other horizontal line since its an interlaced display, psp2000 was progressive

 

[Error Macro]

That image doesn't look like a CRT, though, it looks like a photo of a CRT, which is noticeably different from how our human eyes perceive it.

Also, what CRTs were you guys gaming on that had that much curve to distort the image so much?

However, it is an impressive filter, I'll give it that. A lot of hard work has gone into creating that and even if I don't think it's achieving what it's meant to, I can appreciate the craftsmanship on display there.

It looks slightly different on my setup, and it's different in motion, etc. Also dependent on the image scaling factor in the emulator versus your screen resolution. But I agree it's not quite 100% there yet. It's pretty close in most areas, though.

And there's a flat, non-curved version of the shader as well

 

[mdtauk]

That image doesn't look like a CRT, though, it looks like a photo of a CRT, which is noticeably different from how our human eyes perceive it.

Mind you though, it is 2D. If it were being displayed in S3D, then it would be a different story!

 

[Special J]

not a fan of screen warping. i like the phosphor and white bias but screen warping was a display flaw from technology shortcomings.

artists accounted for phosphor bias and made their assets to account for this. i dont know of any game which was designed for warped displays.

here's an example of the former.

pixel accurate data

same pixels, but accounting for ntsc stretch(rectangular pixels), and crt bias

 

[Sixfortyfive]

not a fan of screen warping. i like the phosphor and white bias but screen warping was a display flaw from technology shortcomings.

Next you're gonna tell me that gratuitous overscan was a technology shortcoming too, I bet.

(I think that SMW emulator shot looks hideous. The FFVI shot looks pretty good.)

 

[dc89]

For someone who wants to buy a PSP soon to play some awesome games, tell me, should this put me off?

 

[InfiniteNine]

For someone who wants to buy a PSP soon to play some awesome games, tell me, should this put me off?

Never bothered me personally or impacted enjoyment. I usually play RPGs and music games and it's never been a problem IMO.

 

[mjemirzian]

Going from a 2000 to 3000 you'll probably notice the difference in scanlines if you're observant. I didn't like them but luckily my 2000 is still functioning (for now).

 

[Graphics Horse]

Because right now, they're bugging the hell out of me. Just got a 3000 yesterday, to replace my broken 2000, and while the brighter colors are nice, the scanlines are SO annoying. And what makes it worse is that most of the people I talk to about it swear they can't see them. I guess my eyes are just more sensitive to this kind of thing. Will I eventually stop seeing them, or what? How about you, GAF, do they bug you? Please, share your thoughts!

They completely bugged me at first, I thought the screen was defective. It's probably most noticable on the XMB, which wasn't a good way to leave a first impression.
I much prefer the look of the 1000 screen for everything apart from the black persistence smudging, although sometimes I miss the smudging...
However, as time went on I became less horrified by it, and it only rarely bothers me now.

 

[Wazzim]

Never tried a 3000, the Go's screen looks very good though.
I really notice the ghosting of my (old) 2000 screen when playing certain games, luckily I'm getting the vita as replacement.

 

[Galdelico]

They totally set me off, to the point I immediately changed my 3000 with a new E-1000.

 

[Special J]

Next you're gonna tell me that gratuitous overscan was a technology shortcoming too, I bet.

(I think that SMW emulator shot looks hideous. The FFVI shot looks pretty good.)

cutting overscan was a technology shortcoming because curvature on edges were typically not worth the distortion to even bother displaying and many games still account for it by padding hud elements closer to the middle of the screen. hell i bet the majority of people on gaf dont even enable overscan viewing on their displays.

 

[LamerDeluxe]

I know that much, I was just under the impression interlacing was more inherent to what CRTs COULD do and not something LCDs really do, I'd need to see some videos highlighting this in action. It is possible ghosting masked it on the Nintendo handhelds though, and if it weren't disproven I'd wonder if the reduced ghosting on the PSP showed this whereas it wouldn't be seen on the 1000/2000 screens.

By the way, I messed up, apparently it's the sub-pixel structure rather than pixel substructure, and there's an image on Wikipedia comparing the 2000 and 3000 there.

You can do interlaced display updates with many systems that weren't designed for it, to save bandwidth. The slowness/afterglow of the display should mask the flickering effect a bit.

I haven't seen the display of the 3000 myself, so I don't know what people are complaining about exactly, visible lines, shimmering or tearing with moving graphics. (EDIT: should have pressed F5, I see it is tearing, so the display is interlaced) If the display is being updated in an interlaced way and with the subpixel arrangement in your link, I could see that making the effect worse. The 3DS has the same subpixel structure as the 3000 because of the vertical parallax barrier it uses for 3D. I haven't noticed a scanline effect there yet.

On the GBA there is a lot of tearing, most easily seen in the sides of the road in F-Zero, or the ground in Tony Hawk 2. It was discovered that the GBA had a potentiometer with which you could adjust the balance of the odd and even scanlines. This worked especially for removing visible scanlines in semi-transparent objects. Setting it wrongly could permanently ruin the contrast of the display.

You're just seeing LCD-ghosting.
3K uses rotated RGB grid, and because one color component lags behind other two - it gives the perception of "line trails" instead of "solid blur".

Like with all LCDs, ghosting is color-dependent, so it varies a great deal with what's being displayed.

What is the logic behind this? I see this happening on the PSP 1000 and 2000, especially with movies and Loco Roco. LCD displays simply consist of crystals with color filters, why do different subpixels have different timing? Is this some kind of optimisation in the refresh of the pixels?

 

[DukeTogo1300]

Love the 3K screen, and I highly prefer SD games at their native resolution w/ real/simulated scanlines and the slight softness of a CRT if possible.

 

[Fafalada]

The 3DS has the same subpixel structure as the 3000 because of the vertical parallax barrier it uses for 3D. I haven't noticed a scanline effect there yet.

Not sure why 3DS is different (maybe subpixel timings are the same) but it's quite clearly not interlacing on 3k. You only see the effect on anything that ghosts(eg LocoRoco black enemies are a great test).

Is this some kind of optimisation in the refresh of the pixels?

Timing to change from one color to another varies, and yes, panels are optimized for certain changes (what you most commonly expect to see) and lag on others. IIRC worst case on PSP1k/2k was over 50ms.

 

[Durante]

(I think that SMW emulator shot looks hideous. The FFVI shot looks pretty good.)

It's the same filter, the curvature is entirely adjustable (as are a million other parameters).

It's really very nice, I can't imagine playing 16 bit (and earlier) games on a modern display without it.

(I do hope Vita is the point where we finally put LCDs out of their misery)

Yes! And please let me buy an OLED monitor for less than 1k € this year!

 

[LamerDeluxe]

Not sure why 3DS is different (maybe subpixel timings are the same) but it's quite clearly not interlacing on 3k. You only see the effect on anything that ghosts(eg LocoRoco black enemies are a great test).

This looks like interlacing to me though:

Timing to change from one color to another varies, and yes, panels are optimized for certain changes (what you most commonly expect to see) and lag on others. IIRC worst case on PSP1k/2k was over 50ms.

Yes, I know about small intensity changes in subpixels taking longer and about using overdrive to speed up transitions. I didn't know the subpixels had different timings. 50ms is quite a lot when one 60fps frame takes 16.7ms.

 

[Nekofrog]

Bought a PSP3000 while I was in Mississippi for tech school, and instantly I noticed scan lines -- and I had never seen a PSP's screen before that.

Really brought down my opinion of the system. Do the previous iterations not have them? I thought it was standard.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Bought a PSP3000 while I was in Mississippi for tech school, and instantly I noticed scan lines -- and I had never seen a PSP's screen before that.

Really brought down my opinion of the system. Do the previous iterations not have them? I thought it was standard.

As you can tell by the thread, this is a problem intrinsic to 3000 only.

 

[deim0s]

If you transitioned from the first gen PSPs you'd notice it right away. To me, I have to retire my old 1000 and 2000, it annoyed me at first but now I don't bother any more.

 

[RazzleDazzleRB]

No but my 3000 has the screen edge light problem, it is really distracting.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419362

 

[hikarutilmitt]

I see them occasionally but it doesn't bother me. What did bother me was the awful ghosting on the 2000, which nobody seems to want to acknowledge.

This. I see it in the XMB and when playing sprite-based games more than polygons, but the ghosting on my friends' 2000 models bugged the ever loving shit out of me, so I never bought one.

1000 - ghosting not really as noticeable, no line artifacts from the 3000, but it's dim, chunky and the d-pad is butt.

2000 - ghosting. oh god the ghosting

3000 - line artifacts

go - best screen of the series (maybe prior to the e-1000?) but the form factor (and thus awful buttons and d-pad) makes it a lose for me. Its only saving grace is that you can get the cradle for it and connect a DS3 via bluetooth and basically use it as a console-version PSP.

 

[CharlesSurge]

I noticed it immediately, and the 3000 was my first and only PSP. I'm really looking forward to the Vita and have held off on playing the majority of PSP games I own, as well as bought digital versions of them.

 

[Tagg9]

They are definitely visible on my 3000, but I wouldn't say that they bothered me.

 

[Special J]

meh too much misinformation, and mislabeling of visual artifacts...

 

[mollipen]

For someone who wants to buy a PSP soon to play some awesome games, tell me, should this put me off?

Buy a Go, get as many games as you can digitally, and then for those that are UMD only, buy the UMD and custom firmware the Go so that you can play ripped versions of those games.

 

[gogogow]

This looks like interlacing to me though:

Yes, I know about small intensity changes in subpixels taking longer and about using overdrive to speed up transitions. I didn't know the subpixels had different timings. 50ms is quite a lot when one 60fps frame takes 16.7ms.

Yeah, it's clearly interlacing, some can't see it, others do and are bothered by it, some aren't, but it's there.

 

[Synless]

Honestly, I had forgotten it was even an issue until this thread. Now I will likely notice it again. Thanks