Support NeoGAF

[hariseldon]

Up until now the ray-tracing thing hasn't really interested me. Then I saw Quake 2 with ray-tracing. Holy fuck.

I'll just leave this here. Enjoy.

Homepage: http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/
Github: https://github.com/cschied/q2vkpt/ (thanks Redneckerz - the source I found this at didn't mention these and just had the videos embedded - maybe I should have clicked through but I'm a lazy scrub).

 

[ethomaz]

The models are still way outdated but the added ray-tracking give a new feel to it.

 

[DarkestHour]

This is exactly the use case I think ray tracing would currently be awesome for. Take some games that run amazingly well and throw in ray tracing.

 

[MDSLKTR]

Framerate seems apt.

 

[AV]

It's a good demo because in games like Battlefield, there's so much details rammed into every inch of the screen that it can be hard to tell exactly where the new tech is taking effect.

Ray Tracing IS the next big leap graphically, it's just going to be a while before it's worth A. picking up an enabled GPU that doesn't massively gimp performance (edit: for the price) or B. we see it in consoles. B is obviously much further away, especially considering "nice lighting" is harder to sell to the masses.

 

[Fuz]

Still the best multiplayer shooter ever. Q2DM1 is the best DM/TDM map ever created and the trickjumps are unmatched to this day.

Still one of the best overall FPS ever.

Probably the game that more than any other needs a remake.

 

[Redneckerz]

Sorry fam, this already existed previously on GTX 1080 Ti, where a guy made a custom path tracer running Quake 2.



https://amietia.com/q2pt.html

This looks a lot better though and less noisy and i assume it hooks into the existing rendering?

 

[hariseldon]

I love Quake 2 (even if I'm shit at it). Btw you should try it in VR some time, that takes it to a whole new level, the monsters being there, in the flesh, towering over you with their big muscles looking scary as fuck. It's a beautiful thing that I can never hope to convey in video form sadly.

Fuz - noooo to the remake. Just think what they'd do to it. Close off modding, microtransactions, loot boxes. No fucking way.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Looks nice, but I can't really tell the difference between this and a nice reskin/HD mod.

But maybe that's the point being made.

 

[Vlaphor]

My biggest issue with ray tracing is that a lot of it looks similar to effects already in use right now. I know they're faked, but they're faked quite well with a much lower gpu cost. The beginning of that first video for example looks like they added screen space reflections to Quake 2, instead of ray tracing. I know ray tracing is more accurate, but the final results still looks fairly similar.

 

[onQ123]

Quake???!!!!

 

[Shifty]

Looks neat. That buttery smooth 48FPS though!

I want to see how Quake 1 would look with these effects.

Sorry fam, this already existed previously on GTX 1080 Ti, where a guy made a custom path tracer running Quake 2.



https://amietia.com/q2pt.html

"GOTCHA!"
-Redneckerz, 2019

This looks a lot better though and less noisy and i assume it hooks into the existing rendering?

If existing RTX stuff is anything to go by it's probably a hybrid technique that combines rasterized base geometry with raytraced lighting, shadows and reflections. If it was pure raytracing then it'd probably be as noisy as q2pt / Raylgun.

Looks nice, but I can't really tell the difference between this and a nice reskin/HD mod.

But maybe that's the point being made.

Same here, save for the accurate water reflections and a subtle effect with the those skirting board floor lights. They should have done a side-by-side comparison.

Quake???!!!!

 

[Spukc]

I feel like this could be faked
Still cool demo tho

 

[JohnnyFootball]

id software deserves so much credit for being one of the first developers to release the source codes for their games. It has enabled those games to remain alive and well today thanks to modders.

I have always argued that id software may very well be the most important developer of all time due (at least as far as PC and modern consoles are concerned) due to all the seeds their contributions planted.

THANK YOU ID!!!

 

[Mattyp]

Looks awesome but let’s have some real discussion.

PS1 Quake 2 Mulitap —————> Goldeneye N64. Fight me.

 

[Spukc]

Looks awesome but let’s have some real discussion.

PS1 Quake 2 Mulitap —————> Goldeneye N64. Fight me.

Trash

 

[MDSLKTR]

Quake???!!!!

It needs to have a DOOM worthy comeback, and no I don't count champions... Actually nobody does.

 

[Redneckerz]

@hariseldon please add the homepage to your OP: http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/ and the Github: https://github.com/cschied/q2vkpt/

My biggest issue with ray tracing is that a lot of it looks similar to effects already in use right now. I know they're faked, but they're faked quite well with a much lower gpu cost. The beginning of that first video for example looks like they added screen space reflections to Quake 2, instead of ray tracing. I know ray tracing is more accurate, but the final results still looks fairly similar.

Pathtracing is more about subtle details that you should not notice.

For instance, i was initially surprised that the grunt's laser beams weren't reflecting, but i realized later they are indeed doing that, but much more subdued. Because i am so used to the original release having a light casted when it shoots a beam, you are met back when you aren't seeing that effect as exaggerated as it really is.

The realistic approach here is a much more subdued light, which makes sense.

Even so, their custom made denoising filter still is not perfect as this shot shows: (Actually i can't show it right now since the site seems to be under heavy traffic, yay)

If existing RTX stuff is anything to go by it's probably a hybrid technique that combines rasterized base geometry with raytraced lighting, shadows and reflections. If it was pure raytracing then it'd probably be as noisy as q2pt / Raylgun.

Its a full path tracer.

Does Q2VKPT use the original light maps?
The original Quake 2 engine uses precomputed light maps that contain soft shadows and diffuse indirect illumination. In contrast, Q2VKPT entirely replaces the static illumination using a fully dynamic simulation that unifies both the static and dynamic light sources.
How many rays does Q2VKPT cast per pixel?
The number of rays that are cast are dependent on the first visible surface. For opaque surfaces Q2VKPT uses one ray each to find the direct and indirectly visible surface. Additionally, for both surfaces Q2VKPT casts one ray each towards randomly chosen light sources. Therefore Q2VKPT will cast at least 4 rays for each pixel.
Does Q2VKPT rely on rasterization?
Traditionally, games use the rasterizer to find the surfaces visible from the camera. Q2VKPT is fully raytraced and does not rely on the rasterizer (except for the 2D user interface elements).

Same here, save for the accurate water reflections and a subtle effect with the those skirting board floor lights. They should have done a side-by-side comparison.

On the homepage: http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/#media

I feel like this could be faked
Still cool demo tho

You can only reach approximations and achieve a similar look but you will miss the details, which is what this project is all about.

 

[Shifty]

It needs to have a DOOM worthy comeback, and no I don't count champions... Actually nobody does.

More like Quake Chump-ions am I right

Its a full path tracer.

On the homepage: http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/#media

You can only reach approximations and achieve a similar look but you will miss the details, which is what this project is all about.

Okay, that's pretty damn impressive. I haven't seen any pure raytracing implementations with so little noise as this.

Come to think of it, isn't there some difference in implementation between the pathtracer / raytracer terminologies?
I wrote a noiseless shader-based raytracer to dick around with portals and light bending a while back (with mediocre perf on a 680 I might add). It was a relatively simple 'one ray through each pixel' sort of thing, but a lot of the more advanced stuff at the time featured the noising we're familiar with today and used the 'path tracing' terminology. Confusing.

 

[Redneckerz]

EDIT: DP because yay internet.

 

[hariseldon]

@hariseldon please add the homepage to your OP: http://brechpunkt.de/q2vkpt/ and the Github: https://github.com/cschied/q2vkpt/

Make me, bitch. Or to put it another way, done.

 

[Lucumo]

Looks really off somehow and the water reflection makes no sense. I definitely prefer the original.

 

[Redneckerz]

More like Quake Chump-ions am I right


Okay, that's pretty damn impressive. I haven't seen any pure raytracing implementations with so little noise as this.

Tensor cores and custom denoising filter baby.

Its not flawless, mind you, but its a shitton better than the Raylgun path tracer.

Looks really off somehow and the water reflection makes no sense. I definitely prefer the original.

How so does the water reflection make no sense?

 

[kbear]

I skimmed through the video so if I missed it mb but how do you create this demo and not have a simple before & after comparison, like splitting the screen in half or doing that horizontal fade

 

[Redneckerz]

I skimmed through the video so if I missed it mb but how do you create this demo and not have a simple before & after comparison, like splitting the screen in half or doing that horizontal fade

See the OP and the homepage. It has videos and before and after pics from before denoising and after.

 

[Lucumo]

How so does the water reflection make no sense?

Have you ever walked through the water? Ripples and distortion are a thing. There is also the color, although I'm not sure about that, considering it's entirely unnatural (or non-earth-like rather)

 

[mckmas8808]

Quake???!!!!

LOLOL!!!

 

[clem84]

This looks ok.

It would help if the video was split in two and they showed with and without ray-tracing.

 

[kbear]

See the OP and the homepage. It has videos and before and after pics from before denoising and after.

Oh shit, oops.

 

[Redneckerz]

Have you ever walked through the water?

Any reason why you felt the need to be condescending with this question?

Ripples and distortion are a thing. There is also the color, although I'm not sure about that, considering it's entirely unnatural (or non-earth-like rather)

Certain particle effects also aren't in. Their reasoning:

Why are there no particles? I want my flies and rail gun sparks back!
Unfortunately, we ran out of time to add lights for the rail gun. As to other particles, the decision to fully raytrace everything in the game made rendering particles a bit less trivial. If we find the time, we might fix it in the future!

I wager ripples and distortion are similar, as we are now working with actual reflections, distortion means reflectivity will change, which may not be implemented.

Consider mailing them, they actually want inquiries, so i reckon feedback is also okay: q2vkpt@brechpunkt.de.

This looks ok.

It would help if the video was split in two and they showed with and without ray-tracing.

Without:

Spoiler

I am just messing with you, this is in 3DFX OpenGL mode since that's how the game looks without raytracing originally. I assume you meant how it looks with RT turned off. In this case, that would likely be a blank screen since its a raytracer, not a rasterizer. The only thing that's still rendered in the usual way is the 2D UI.

Oh shit, oops.

Looks pretty swell huh?

Reminds me of the moment we jumped from software rendered Quake to Hardware accelerated Quake.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

Still the best multiplayer shooter ever. Q2DM1 is the best DM/TDM map ever created and the trickjumps are unmatched to this day.

Still one of the best overall FPS ever.

Probably the game that more than any other needs a remake.

Damn right. Played tons of Q2 when it came out. And lots of Action Quake 2

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Nice to see some of my media I made years ago still being used haha

 

[Trogdor1123]

Wouldn't doom 3 really benefit from Ray tracing?

 

[Lucumo]

Any reason why you felt the need to be condescending with this question?

Hm? It's a rhetorical question that I didn't read as condescending. The part afterwards is what came with me rolling my eyes due to your naive and/or probing question.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

Looks awesome, with it it looks almost like an Unreal 3 engine game, kinda like Chronicles of Riddic.

 

[tkscz]

Wouldn't doom 3 really benefit from Ray tracing?

The ID Tech 4 (Quake 4) engine was dropped by modders rather quickly. Compared to the Quake II engine which still gets modded to this day. If some modders want to mess with IDT4, then I'm sure they could pull off Ray tracing with RTX or software Path Tracing.

 

[Redneckerz]

Nice to see some of my media I made years ago still being used haha

You mean the 3DFX post?

Wouldn't doom 3 really benefit from Ray tracing?

It could, but you have to take into account its stencil shadows. Since Path tracing as seen here comes with raytraced shadows that naturally fade as distance from the lit object becomes greater, i am not sure if it can already be intermixed with the hard dynamic shadows of Doom 3.

If it could, then it would act more like the shadows we see here - fading over distance and not hard, as in not diffused.

Hm?

Asking ''Have you ever walked through water?'' is not condescending to you?

It's a rhetorical question that I didn't read as condescending. The part afterwards is what came with me rolling my eyes due to your naive and/or probing question.

Please explain to me how i am naive when i just gave you a likely answer as to why wading through water likely is not in this release.

Again, feel free to mail them, since your feedback might hold value for them

 

[Shifty]

Have you ever walked through the water? Ripples and distortion are a thing. There is also the color, although I'm not sure about that, considering it's entirely unnatural (or non-earth-like rather)

I wager ripples and distortion are similar, as we are now working with actual reflections, distortion means reflectivity will change, which may not be implemented.

I feel like this argument needs to be taken back to first principles with the question "Did Quake 2 have water ripples and distortion in the original release, and if not, why are we expecting it?"

 

[Gavin Stevens]

You mean the 3DFX post?

I was designed on Quake II Evolved, and we were in charge of most content packs, such as textures, models, effects and hud work. A lot of my media is in use here. I still see it in pretty much most Quake 2 videos, it’s quite a nice feeling

 

[Redneckerz]

I feel like this argument needs to be taken back to first principles with the question "Did Quake 2 have water ripples and distortion in the original release, and if not, why are we expecting it?"

It didn't obviously. It was just an animated texture layer. Stuff like Quake 2 Max and Odium's Quake 2 Evolved and Berserker Quake 2 added that in.

I was designed on Quake II Evolved, and we were in charge of most content packs, such as textures, models, effects and hud work. A lot of my media is in use here. I still see it in pretty much most Quake 2 videos, it’s quite a nice feeling

Oh i know you and that engine port very well. If i remember correctly, Evolved was even used for some obscure Russian game. It was great tech back in the day to see ye olde Id Tech 2 do its magic some more

To that note, you ought to read my PM man!

 

[LucidFeuer]

Yeah so path-traced Quake has been around for 20 years...and I call bullshit on a fully raytraced Quake, but if it can be used for simple light like this, why not.

 

[lukilladog]

According to the interview of the guy who made this -Schied-, it seems that there are still fundamental problems for academic theorists to figure out. So it seems that ATM, no expert could honestly say that ray traced games are the future:

"The purpose of this project is to find out exactly what’s still missing for a clearer pathway into a raytraced future of game graphics. While some problems have already been addressed by academic research, many open real-world problems slip unnoticed until one actually tries to implement a full game renderer"



https://wccftech.com/q2vkpt-first-entirely-raytraced-game/

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

All sorts of memories. Loved this game

 

[Lucumo]

Asking ''Have you ever walked through water?'' is not condescending to you?

Please explain to me how i am naive when i just gave you a likely answer as to why wading through water likely is not in this release.

Again, feel free to mail them, since your feedback might hold value for them

Err, no? There are plenty of statements which open with a rhetorical question, especially in the education department. "Have you ever wondered why X is Y?" or "Have you ever done Z"?

I wrote that your "How so does the water reflection make no sense?"-question was naive and/or probing. At that point you either really didn't know why it's unrealistic or you knew but you wanted to see what I answer...or it was mixture of both, hence my "and/or".

I'm not really interested in doing that. Like I said, I prefer the original. 99% of the time, old games should just remain old games. (Of course, it's never wrong to play around but when I'm looking for something interesting/new, I'm looking elsewhere.)

 

[Redneckerz]

Yeah so path-traced Quake has been around for 20 years...and I call bullshit on a fully raytraced Quake, but if it can be used for simple light like this, why not.

• I am geniunely interested in what other ray/pathtraced Quakes besides the obvious ones you can list.
• Please explain why you call BS on this being fully raytraced when the developer says it is?

Err, no? There are plenty of statements which open with a rhetorical question, especially in the education department. "Have you ever wondered why X is Y?" or "Have you ever done Z"?

You do not think your question was made in bad faith? Its like asking me if you ever have opened a fridge.

Well, have you?

I wrote that your "How so does the water reflection make no sense?"-question was naive and/or probing.

Considering the original did not had it, i was wondering if you could name an aspect, and you did.

I'm not really interested in doing that. Like I said, I prefer the original. 99% of the time, old games should just remain old games. (Of course, it's never wrong to play around but when I'm looking for something interesting/new, I'm looking elsewhere.)

I'd say that if this is fully raytraced, so full scene, then this is about the level of complexity we can go right now. I assume that Quake 3 is also doable at 1080p on top end RTX hardware, but that will be it.

Ofcourse, this should not be compared to scene productions that push raytracing through low level stuff.

 

[Lucumo]

You do not think your question was made in bad faith? Its like asking me if you ever have opened a fridge.
Well, have you?

I'd say that if this is fully raytraced, so full scene, then this is about the level of complexity we can go right now. I assume that Quake 3 is also doable at 1080p on top end RTX hardware, but that will be it.

Ofcourse, this should not be compared to scene productions that push raytracing through low level stuff.

That doesn't make any sense without a follow-up. Like I said, a rhetorical question (at least the way I used it) serves as an introductory piece.

Well, I can't comment on that. It's like my very first statement says...it feels off. There is a dissonance that very likely has something to do with it being an old game (plus, I have played it, even rather recently too).

 

[McCheese]

Can someone explain why it's better to do path-tracing in old low-poly games like Quake2? I was under the impression that path-tracing didn't really care too much about scene complexity and is purely about resolution (and a bit of luck!) as for each pixel it just fires a certain number of rays out, and keeps them bouncing them off in random directions until they arrive at a light source.

Curious as to how fewer polygons results in the rays being quicker to hit a light source.

Edit: Ah, ignore me - it's the RTX path-tracer which is a weird hybrid approach and is bottle-necked by the number of unique normal surfaces and resolution due to how it mixes traditional ray-tracing with old school rasterisation.

 

[Nymphae]

It's just not the same without that soundtrack.

 

[Shifty]

Yeah so path-traced Quake has been around for 20 years...and I call bullshit on a fully raytraced Quake, but if it can be used for simple light like this, why not.

Receipts please, for both claims.

 

[LucidFeuer]

• I am geniunely interested in what other ray/pathtraced Quakes besides the obvious ones you can list.
• Please explain why you call BS on this being fully raytraced when the developer says it is?

Receipts please, for both claims.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNZt3yDXno

Quick exemple from my age old playlist of raytraced prototypes, not going to do the research for you.

I call BS because RTX is a crap pipeline which can at best manage raytraced reflections at a high performance cost, but full raytracing is not something that RTX nor will be able to do for a long time...