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[Vinci]

KKK is still active in the USA, isn't it?

Yup, though...

Current membership estimates by the ADL hold at a national estimate of five thousand.

... it's not what it once was.

 

[itxaka]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4544008.stm

Admitted to being a fascist but not a racist. Though Italian football has always incidents like these, even a club like Inter Milan has fans that taunt black players. It's probably due to Italy in general not being as opposed to fascism compared to other European countries due to it's history.

Though the worst case of racism in football I have ever seen is against Eto'o when Barca played Real Zaragoza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQv4aIXaGQ4

Fucking sport in Spain sucks balls. Seriously I would get all those guys and sent them off the moon.

How the fuck can you have a black player on your team and shout racist things against the other team, it doesn't even make sense.

Fucking morons, between this, Hamilton, and the general approach from sport fanatics this country is fucked up.

 

[Dabookerman]

Great and I get to go to a wedding in Poland next year (and I'm the token Jew). That said the bride is a wonderful person and I can't imagine her family is any different. I just don't want to me the Polish version of angry rednecks. Can anyone from PolandGAF comment on the issues of Antisemitism there?

Poland isn't a racist country. You will get bigots in the older generations, sure.. but for the most part it's pretty tolerant.

In fact, it's a plus if you have different skin tone. A lot of generic Polish people look the same, so if you look like you come from somewhere else, that's usually a hit with the ladies.

 

[Bento]

This sounds like the major issue in that, and again not as familiar with European immigration and laws so this is not chest-beating on my part, as heavily broken as the US immigration policy and structure has been, we've been dealing with it on a fairly regular basis over the past 20 years while the recent upswing in European immigration has been fairly recent over the past 20-30 years?

For Sweden I'd say the immigrant surge happened within the past 10 years. We really have generous with migration from especially Somalia, Iraq (I believe we've granted asylum to more Iraqis then Germany, Frace and Great Britain) and Afghanistan but like many European countries this is changing with more restrictions and demands (though we thankfully so far avoided pointless legislation against burkas and so forth).

I personally do not mind this progression and I think most swedes agree with me that some tightening up was needed to make for a more credible immigration policy. There are still some policy issues which need more work in my opinion as there still are a lot of people who are let in to the country without us having properly identified them due to a lack of passports and other such documents. Something that has made Sweden somewhat of a haven for African war criminals which really isn't what we had in mind when wanted to be an refugee friendly society.

 

[Dabanton]

WHAT!!!!???? Euros really do that!???

It was at a match in Spain.

 

[paranoidfortean]

the issues at hand here are not racism. it boils down to stupidity and ignorance and the glorification of such through media. racism is a side effect.

 

[Boerseun]

Europe opened its borders. Droves of third-worlders streamed in, bringing with them primitive cultures mired in violence and unchecked aggression, leading to increased crime and civil unrest. Now the civilised people of Europe retaliate, giving the invaders some of their own medicine. (What else were they going to do?)

I'm not European, but I've been to Europe and I've seen how bad it's going in countries like The Netherlands, Germany, France and Great Britain. Regardless of what their governments say on television, it's chaos at street level and conflict is everywhere. Violent Muslim intolerance towards people who don't share their beliefs is especially pronounced.

If there is another solution to the problem, aside from a large scale military defensive ejecting the invaders and sending them back to Africa and the Middle East, what is it?

 

[Barbacoatl]

I've heard many horror stories of Turkish punks attacking tourists (Poland), makes me fear for my trip next year.

Bullshit. As a South American, single, male college student it is pretty much impossible to get an US tourist visa. The only thing the American embassy can think is 'omg, he's going to stay here for the jobs!!', while I just pack my things, take a flight and some hours later I'm in Europe.

Pretty much. That's my beef with the U.S. You're in Brazil right? at least your country has the guts to return the favor, here we will bend over to the first gringo to cross the border.

 

[ymmv]

Is this really an excuse? How many times have mass immigration not encountered xenophobia. America had no programs, much less failed one and lots of xenophobia and discrimination. Still worked out in the end.

The reason why the US melting pot seemed to work so well, was that it attracted European immigrants who all wanted to become Americans. The cultural differences between the various groups were so small that after one or two generations all that was left to differentiate the various groups were the culinary dishes they introduces into the US. They spoke English like natives in one single generation and they all intermarried. Even religion wasn't a barrier to integration and assimilation.

In fact, this kind of successful integration has been going for centuries in Europe too. In the Netherlands we had Flemish immigrants who fled from the Spanish in the 16th century, we had French speaking Huguenots in the 17th century, we had Indos (European-Indonesians) in the 20th century. No problem. The integration crisis started when we got tens of thousands of immigrants workers from southern Europe, Turkey and Morocco. Most Spanish, Italian and Portuguese immigrant workers returned home after a couple of years, those that stayed were completely assimilated into Dutch society. The Turks and Moroccans on the other hand stayed apart from Dutch society. One reason was they didn't see themselves as permanent immigrants but only as temporary residents so there was no real need to learn the language of their new home. Another reason was that they didn't want their family or their children to westernize because it felt too alien or immoral to them.

Morroccans and Turks generally don't integrate very well. Second and third generations still retain the nationality of the (grand) parents. They still speak Moroccan Arabic, Berber or Turkish at home. They still watch Arab and Turkish TV programs with a satellite dish. They don't take up Dutch first names. They don't marry outside of their ethnicity, but prefer to marry someone from the home country (these marriages are often arranged too). Religion is a key reason why they don't mix with other ethnic groups. Instead of integrating into Dutch society, we're now seeing ethnic ghettos being formed where the majority of the people belong to a single ethnicity with their own politicians, religious leaders, schools, etc.

 

[Dabanton]

Also as a black man who has travelled to various places around europe i have to say that i haven't really encountered any racism.

Quite the opposite people are happy to see you even places i thought would be bad i.e Sarajevo were beautiful places with friendly people.

 

[ymmv]

Europe has never had the benefit of a Civil Rights movement to really make the populace more educated or empathetic about race relations.

We never needed it! In the past 60 years Europeans have been very sympathetic to minorities and other ethnicities compared to the US. Interracial marriages are actually more common in western Europe than the US.

 

[justjohn]

I actually think out of all the non White immigrant groups in the uk, the blacks have intergrated the most. Very prominent in sports, entertainment and strong intermarriage with whites.

Not so much for the Muslims and Indians though.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Europe opened its borders. Droves of third-worlders streamed in, bringing with them primitive cultures mired in violence and unchecked aggression, leading to increased crime and civil unrest. Now the civilised people of Europe retaliate, giving the invaders some of their own medicine. (What else were they going to do?)

I'm not European, but I've been to Europe and I've seen how bad it's going in countries like The Netherlands, Germany, France and Great Britain. Regardless of what their governments say on television, it's chaos at street level and conflict is everywhere. Violent Muslim intolerance towards people who don't share their beliefs is especially pronounced.

If there is another solution to the problem, aside from a large scale military defensive ejecting the invaders and sending them back to Africa and the Middle East, what is it?

Wow, just wow. Yeah, use soldiers to sent the invaders back to Africa and the Middle East. Let's line up everyone by religion and skin color while we're at it, right?

I'm not saying nothing needs to be done, but just discrimination ourselves against whole populaces is not a solution and goes against everything we say we believe in.

The thing to do is tighten immigration policy first so we can deal with the problems there are now. But sending large groups of people off to another country can't be done. Lots of people here in Holland are saying "let's sent those Moroccan troublemakers back to their own country" and forget those people have Dutch passports and are Dutch citizens.

 

[justjohn]

Europe opened its borders. Droves of third-worlders streamed in, bringing with them primitive cultures mired in violence and unchecked aggression, leading to increased crime and civil unrest. Now the civilised people of Europe retaliate, giving the invaders some of their own medicine. (What else were they going to do?)

I'm not European, but I've been to Europe and I've seen how bad it's going in countries like The Netherlands, Germany, France and Great Britain. Regardless of what their governments say on television, it's chaos at street level and conflict is everywhere. Violent Muslim intolerance towards people who don't share their beliefs is especially pronounced.

If there is another solution to the problem, aside from a large scale military defensive ejecting the invaders and sending them back to Africa and the Middle East, what is it?

:lol Invaders

edit: banned. That was quic

 

[Kabouter]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

 

[Enosh]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

yeah, we have all seen the last Roma thread, no one wants to repeat that

 

[ClosingADoor]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

I think it is because not many people have experience with that. I never read about it in the news, and isn't this a problem in Eastern Europe for the most past (correct me if I'm wrong, I know very little of the subject).

 

[JoeBoy101]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

Given the last topic on it, I think people have been politely avoiding it so a possible banalanche won't occur. The last thread on Gypsies and Roma went... poorly.

 

[Barbacoatl]

yeah, we have all seen the last Roma thread, no one wants to repeat that

It was a massacre.

 

[Kabouter]

I think it is because not many people have experience with that. I never read about it in the news, and isn't this a problem in Eastern Europe for the most past (correct me if I'm wrong, I know very little of the subject).

It is largely, but certainly not completely, confined to various Central and particularly Eastern European states yes.

 

[xbhaskarx]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

That's because EuroGAF hates Roma. We had a thread on that once, and it was embarrassing.

Found it: Czech anti-Roma ad calls for final solution to Gypsy question

Edit: YOU started that thread too :lol

 

[Zeke]

Europe opened its borders. Droves of third-worlders streamed in, bringing with them primitive cultures mired in violence and unchecked aggression, leading to increased crime and civil unrest. Now the civilised people of Europe retaliate, giving the invaders some of their own medicine. (What else were they going to do?)

I'm not European, but I've been to Europe and I've seen how bad it's going in countries like The Netherlands, Germany, France and Great Britain. Regardless of what their governments say on television, it's chaos at street level and conflict is everywhere. Violent Muslim intolerance towards people who don't share their beliefs is especially pronounced.

If there is another solution to the problem, aside from a large scale military defensive ejecting the invaders and sending them back to Africa and the Middle East, what is it?

Better run along to the Klan meeting before you're late

 

[Combichristoffersen]

That's because EuroGAF hates Roma. We had a thread on that once, and it was embarrassing.

Found it: Czech anti-Roma ad calls for final solution to Gypsy question

Gypsies are scum and deserve no sympathy. They don't go to school and are uneducated, they steal constantly, make places a mess, leave all their rubbish and piss off leaving it to rot. We had some on an unused plot of land locally some years back, they would play on the dual carriage way and throw things into traffic, drag buckets to the petrol station and fill them with the free car water to wash in, walk into Tesco and put on 10 pairs of shirts and run through the security barriers and all kinda of other shit. Leeches and Scum.

Jebus.

 

[Enosh]

I think it is because not many people have experience with that. I never read about it in the news, and isn't this a problem in Eastern Europe for the most past (correct me if I'm wrong, I know very little of the subject).

I have a lot of experience with roma

I sure as hell don't want to talk about it on gaf

 

[itxaka]

It is largely, but certainly not completely, confined to various Central and particularly Eastern European states yes.

Yep, never heard of Roma in Spain, only trough internet and such. I don't think there is even Roma in here, only Gypsies.

And I can say about them that while some of them are perfectly integrated (I do even know a few and had one guy that used to come with us before he left to live somewhere else with his GF) most of them do not integrate very well.

2 sided on this, as some of them have no option. They barely know how to write so they are confined to work scrapping metal or on the circus and they enter into a loop that are unable to get out. Plus the views about them are always negative. But there is also others that go for the bad ways of life and they are ok with that, teach their children that and put it more difficult for the rest to get out of the stereotype of gypsies = burglars/drug dealers/lazy/etc..

Edit: In fact I just noticed, even the word Gypsie has a bad connotation in here. Ugh.

 

[Barbacoatl]

I have a lot of experience with roma

I sure as hell don't want to talk about it on gaf

Too apt

 

[Funky Papa]

Yep, never heard of Roma in Spain, only trough internet and such. I don't think there is even Roma in here, only Gypsies.

Roma is the "proper name" for gypsies.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Electro gypsy is best gypsy

 

[gutter_trash]

Recession + Unemployment + High Immigration = Europe Today.

I fear it'll get a lot worse before it gets better.

don't forget to add the amount of religious fringe extremists who spew hate speach against their adoptive countries.. that never doesn't help either

 

[itxaka]

Roma is the "proper name" for gypsies.

woah, not even them call themselves roma, they always use gypsies. Never knew that.

 

[mokeyjoe]

Europe opened its borders. Droves of third-worlders streamed in, bringing with them primitive cultures mired in violence and unchecked aggression, leading to increased crime and civil unrest. Now the civilised people of Europe retaliate, giving the invaders some of their own medicine. (What else were they going to do?)

I'm not European, but I've been to Europe and I've seen how bad it's going in countries like The Netherlands, Germany, France and Great Britain. Regardless of what their governments say on television, it's chaos at street level and conflict is everywhere. Violent Muslim intolerance towards people who don't share their beliefs is especially pronounced.

If there is another solution to the problem, aside from a large scale military defensive ejecting the invaders and sending them back to Africa and the Middle East, what is it?

What a giant load of crap.

 

[Garjon]

I think SmokyDave had it on the first page; people always need some sort of figurehead to pin every bit of blame on.
And that's why we will have organisations such as the EDL until the financial outlook picks up.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What a giant load of crap.

Worse thing is, that kind of thought is on the rise throughout Europe. We got a so called "Freedom Party" here that is against everything muslim and it has 16% of the votes, making it the third party of the country...

 

[Funky Papa]

woah, not even them call themselves roma, they always use gypsies. Never knew that.

It's mostly used by English speakers in order to differentiate between actual gypsies and "Irish travellers", aka pikeys.

One day I'm going to make a big ass post about racism and prejudice with special emphasis on the gypsy issue. As a citizen of the EU who travels extensively around the continent and also frequents the US, I'm sure it will blow a few heads and hurt some butts, specially among the insecure cretins from both sides of the pond who enjoy so much that little game of pointing and laughing.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think SmokyDave had it on the first page; people always need some sort of figurehead to pin every bit of blame on.
And that's why we will have organisations such as the EDL until the financial outlook picks up.

it always happens.

all with a decent understanding of post-Civil War America and how competition and poverty fueled the growth of racism and Jim Crow can somewhat understand the dynamics going on in Europe.

 

[Kabouter]

One day I'm going to make a big ass post about racism and prejudice with special emphasis on the gypsy issue. As a citizen of the EU who travels extensively around the continent and also frequents the US, I'm sure it will blow a few heads and hurt some butts, specially among the insecure cretins from both sides of the pond who enjoy so much that little game of pointing and laughing.

I hope you get around to doing so, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Edit: YOU started that thread too :lol

Yes, the issue interests me. Both in terms of the strong cultural resistance to general society within the Roma community and in terms of the EU tolerating horrible human rights violations towards the minority in member states.

 

[Mcj Metroid]

But yeah, I weep anytime anyone says something like "Finland belongs to Finnish! We've fought for this nation and built it and etc etc". Usually it's the older generations who still have some connections to WW2. But it's just wrong.

Yep this happens in Ireland too. For example the Queen of England is scheduled to have a visit to Ireland but yet there are those "old-school" irish who hold on to the old believe that our grandfathers fought for our independence from the English blah blah blah.

We have far less problems with racism because we are not as exposed to them as much as the US or mainland Europe, but it's there.

 

[mokeyjoe]

Worse thing is, that kind of thought is on the rise throughout Europe. We got a so called "Freedom Party" here that is against everything muslim and it has 16% of the votes, making it the third party of the country...

Yeah, it sounded like nationalist nonsense.

The thing all this talk of 'invaders' and stuff seems totally alien to me. I've got loads of 'muslim' friends (very lapsed - lol) who are just like any of my other friends except for an aversion to pork and worrying about what their parents might think about certain stuff. First generation immigrants always stick out with different languages, clothes etc but the second generation is mostly English, and by the time their kids grow up no-one will be able to tell the difference.

I mean I can't speak for other countries in Europe but I really don't think the immigration 'problem' is anything more than media induced hyperbole designed to sell newpapers. Hype and hot air. Meh.

 

[CassSept]

The shit with "Finland belongs to the Finnish", "Ireland belongs to the Irish" happens all over Europe, especially now after economical breakdown. It's much easier for politicians to just blame minorities.

Roma/Gypsies - Eastern/Central Europeans (I'm talking from my point of view now) relationship is a difficult and complicated problem. Also incredibly hard to explain, especially to Americans (as seen in the previous bloodbath thread).
Some people might say it's pure racism, '30s like bigotry but I think it is very different. This discussion is very hard and I, along with probably others too, am biased by my experiences.
I don't want to get banned, but really source of the problem is deeply rooted within both sides of the conflict. We aren't getting anywhere with this right now, sadly. I am prejudiced a little to them, even if I'm not racist, due to bad experiences.

Anyway, from where this discussion began with Manos's question, poles aren't as racist as we may be presented in the west (except for closet racist, but as far as I know there aren't as many open acts as you may be led to believe).

 

[FoneBone]

They don't take up Dutch first names. They don't marry outside of their ethnicity, but prefer to marry someone from the home country (these marriages are often arranged too).

oh, christ

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean I can't speak for other countries in Europe but I really don't think the immigration 'problem' is anything more than media induced hyperbole designed to sell newpapers. Hype and hot air. Meh.

There are problems and some minority groups have a higher percentage of criminals. But in many cases the media gets hyped about an issue and all of the sudden it is made out that we can expect a civil war the next day.

If I read the stuff about my own neighborhood sometimes, I should be robbed every other day and hear gunshots every week :lol

 

[Azih]

The reason why the US melting pot seemed to work so well, was that it attracted European immigrants who all wanted to become Americans.

Bullshit, The US has attracted all kinds of immigrants not just Europeans. Racism towards new Europeans was plenty horrific as well.

They spoke English like natives in one single generation

You know non Caucasians speak English just like natives in a single generation as well.

Even religion wasn't a barrier to integration and assimilation.

This is just plain wrong. I don't know what kind of historical perspective you have but there was a big huge deal about John F. Kennedy being elected President while being Catholic for a reason.

Morroccans and Turks generally don't integrate very well.

I think the Dutch idea of what 'integration' means is just completely different from the idea of it in North America (both America and Canada)

For example:

Second and third generations still retain the nationality of the (grand) parents.

How would multiple nationalities affect integration? I am Canadian and I am Pakistani. That doesn't cause issues here in Toronto at all, but I guess it would if I dared to think of myself as Pakistani and Dutch while growing up in Amsterdam.

They still speak Moroccan Arabic, Berber or Turkish at home.

Yes, and? I speak Urdu at home and I fail to see how that makes me any less Canadian then someone who speaks just English and/or French. I guess keeping up with non Euro languages is a sign of not being Dutch enough over there.

They still watch Arab and Turkish TV programs with a satellite dish.

Ok, so? I don't watch Bollywood movies much myself but I listed to plenty of Bollywood music cuz a lot of it is god damn catchy. Does watching Turkish TV mean someone is less Dutch? You better not bring up Turkish Star Wars on youtube then is all I can say. All the Dutch might leak out of you!

They don't take up Dutch first names.

You're really really confusing me now. Is Dutchiness determined by first name? That just sounds odd to these North American ears. Maybe you guys should pass a law that everybody who comes into the country should change their name to Johann or something to be considered not a weird outsider. And what about last names? I'm sure poor little Johann Wong would be much more accepted if he was given a properly Dutch last name as well. Johann von Allochtoon or something.

 

[FoneBone]

Short version: the implication that "integration" necessitates losing your cultural identity altogether is distinctly unsettling

 

[Zeke]

oh snap Azih laying the smack down :lol

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Great and I get to go to a wedding in Poland next year (and I'm the token Jew). That said the bride is a wonderful person and I can't imagine her family is any different. I just don't want to me the Polish version of angry rednecks. Can anyone from PolandGAF comment on the issues of Antisemitism there?

my indian ex flatmate nearly got his ass kicked multiple times in Poland. They kept calling him a nigger. I'm not sure you can use that word, in that way.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

It was pretty hard for their to be racism before since there weren't many races there to begin with.

 

[overthehill99]

It's 2010 people. God dammit....

 

[2San]

What amazes me most about this thread is that despite the findings being worst in terms of racist violence against Roma people, not one person has chosen to comment on that. Tragic.

Probably, because I've never heard of them? Didn't know what you meant till I googled it.

 

[mokeyjoe]

And what about last names? I'm sure poor little Johann Wong would be much more accepted if he was given a properly Dutch last name as well. Johann von Allochtoon or something.

Well it worked for the British Royal family. Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha -> Windsor.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Probably, because I've never heard of them? Didn't know what you meant till I googled it.

gypsies.

I've never met one, but I've heard they suck, from everybody.