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[franklyshankly]

If they can make a lot of them, good, but if they are supply constrained and prices rise above msrp, that's a problem. Amd could be selling a lot more 580s right now if they had the supply to meet the mining demand. They don't. I don't see how they will have the supply for Vega either.

Right but if they're still selling every card they can produce, that's about the best thing they could ask for isn't it? I understand they'd like to sell more, but if they literally can't make enough to meet demand then I would hope they are still considering that a success. Would be pretty awful business planning to need to sell more than you can ever create in order to make a profit.

Plus when the mining bubble properly crashes, the market will be saturated by cheap used cards, and prices will fall.

I guess this is a reasonable point, but if miners are buying cards now that never would have been sold in the past, is that really that much of a concern?

 

[dgrdsv]

If they can make a lot of them, good, but if they are supply constrained and prices rise above msrp, that's a problem. Amd could be selling a lot more 580s right now if they had the supply to meet the mining demand. They don't. I don't see how they will have the supply for Vega either.

a) This is a problem only in the financial forecast being inaccurate and them suddenly getting loads of cash which they haven't planned for - or suddenly loosing the same load of cash next quarter if the e-coin market goes down for whatever reason. I.e. it's a nice problem to have.

b) They are implementing some measures to fight the mining craze:

- There are special Polaris mining cards in production which are arguably a better fit for what miners require than the Radeon cards in retail or the upcoming Vega cards with their TDP.

- Vega "packs" make sense only if you're willing to use the deals included in them and since most miners are unlikely to become CPU / monitor resellers this is a pretty obvious measure to make sure that Vega's prices won't go up 100% like they did on Polaris and Pascal in May-June.

 

[Delusibeta]

I guess this is a reasonable point, but if miners are buying cards now that never would have been sold in the past, is that really that much of a concern?

The problem would then be cashflow coming in would dive into a pit at some indeterminate point in the future, and that will inevitability give any shareholder the shivers.

 

[gabbo]

I guess this is a reasonable point, but if miners are buying cards now that never would have been sold in the past, is that really that much of a concern?

It wont be sustained growth whereas the gaming populace would be more likely to buy cards more over longer periods of time.
If theyre expected to keep inflated numbers from miners theyre doomed

 

[Dehnus]

It wont be sustained growth whereas the gaming populace would be more likely to buy cards more over longer periods of time.
If theyre expected to keep inflated numbers from miners theyre doomed

Plus they'd be losing a fan base. People only want to wait so long and eventually will just go "Screw it, fuck AMD, I'll go Green.".

Miners aren't loyal to a brand, so the moment something comes a long that performs better? They are gone.

 

[Dehnus]

a) This is a problem only in the financial forecast being inaccurate and them suddenly getting loads of cash which they haven't planned for - or suddenly loosing the same load of cash next quarter if the e-coin market goes down for whatever reason. I.e. it's a nice problem to have.

b) They are implementing some measures to fight the mining craze:

- There are special Polaris mining cards in production which are arguably a better fit for what miners require than the Radeon cards in retail or the upcoming Vega cards with their TDP.

- Vega "packs" make sense only if you're willing to use the deals included in them and since most miners are unlikely to become CPU / monitor resellers this is a pretty obvious measure to make sure that Vega's prices won't go up 100% like they did on Polaris and Pascal in May-June.

Mining cards can't be sold on to recoup your investment into the card. Especially since gamers are now starved for GPU's they are willing to pay more for second hand.

So they aren't a solution really.

 

[JaseC]

We have not had any official benches yet, what we had were perception tests and leaks....The leaked benches...indicate that Vega 56 is at least 15-25% stronger than the 1070, that puts it within GTX 1080 range, so the extra CU's on the Vega 64 coupled with higher clocks on the WC version should pull it's weight way beyond 1080.

Sorry, but you can't dismiss those who disagree with you with "We don't have official benchmarks" yet give credence to the one or two rumours that happen to or may align with your long-running (and quietly adjusted) assumption, especially when said reports are called into question by the fact AMD itself insists the 64 competes with the 1080 and supports this with some empirical data. By being partial to your own conclusion, you undermine your calls for people to wait for legitimate third-party benchmarks before coming to their own.

There are two things you need to realize;

1) The FE card does not have the proper drivers to take advantage of it's gaming capability ...

Actually, that's just a myth:

The driver isn't optimized for gaming.
I saw this pop up a lot during our stream yesterday, that the driver isn't meant for gaming so it hasn't been optimized for gaming. Instead, it's only targeting "professional" level applications. First, that's not the case and AMD has confirmed that. The driver has all the gaming optimizations that the other Radeon drivers would include up until at least the driver branching mentioned above. After that time, optimizations may or may not have made it in, as AMD tells it.

2.) There's still some kinks AMD has to resolve with overclocking et al,,,

Power management features are aimed at reducing power consumption. They don't improve overclocking potential whatsoever and in fact may actually reduce it if there's a limit on the extent to which the power limit can be pushed beyond 100%.

Even Gamersnexus overclocked the FE to 1700Mhz, but in games the FE never reaches 1600Mhz core clock, it hovers around 1350-1400MHz. That coupled with non-gaming drivers for the FE can't be doing it any favors...

You're rebutting the FE WC benchmarks I posted by citing the AC overclocking results of a different publication. Please don't make me bang you over the head with the phrase "conversing in good faith" again. Let's take a look at how PCper's overclock fared under load:

As you can see, while the desired 1.7GHz overclock wasn't sustained, the card did stay above 1.6GHz with relative ease.

 

[kirankara78]

Plus they'd be losing a fan base. People only want to wait so long and eventually will just go "Screw it, fuck AMD, I'll go Green.".

Miners aren't loyal to a brand, so the moment something comes a long that performs better? They are gone.

I think ultimately, you pretty much nailed it. Miners buy only for here and now and will sell gpu on second hadlbd market in near future, effectively losing Amd two lots of sales to Gamers Gamers buy for longer term and they spread good word to orge gamers who in turn buy more gpu.

If the gamers get fed up waiting and competition offers something similar, then they will buy that gpu instead. And unless someome has bad experiences with a brand, they tend to stick with it

Longer term, their market share drops (amd are still vey much minority market share holders with less than 23% of discrete gpu market this quarter, losing ground upon Nvidia ) and try convincing shareholders that pumping billions into r and d for gaming is good idea when they don't see any gains in market.

 

[Arex]

So the local shop just announced the launch pricing for the RX vega in Singapore.

Sapphire Vega 64 water cooled -> sgd1149 (～usd845)
Sapphire Vega 64 air cooled -> sgd999 (～usd 735)

Lol

For comparison, the gigabyte 1080 G1 gaming comes at about sgd849, Aorus at sgd949, and msi gaming x at sgd1049, so they are comparable to 1080 price I suppose.

I hope the performance can justify the price.

 

[Harmondale]

Im about to purchase my first ever desktop, a ryzen 5 1600 with a gtx 1060 3gb 16gb ddr4

Is there going to be an equivalent of the 1060 card in this vega line? I guess I should wait until 14 august if so

Whould there be any advantage of going full amd, meaning a ryzen + vega or can you mix just as you want? Console gamer for 20 years moving over to pc, sry for "stupid" quedtions

 

[icecold1983]

Im about to purchase my first ever desktop, a ryzen 5 1600 with a gtx 1060 3gb 16gb ddr4

Is there going to be an equivalent of the 1060 card in this vega line? I guess I should wait until 14 august if so

Whould there be any advantage of going full amd, meaning a ryzen + vega or can you mix just as you want? Console gamer for 20 years moving over to pc, sry for "stupid" quedtions

the 580 is the 1060 equivalent and its slightly faster with more vram. prices are sky high due to mining tho

 

[Nikodemos]

the 580 is the 1060 equivalent and its slightly faster with more vram. prices are sky high due to mining tho

Fuck miners. I'm looking at 8 GB versions of the 580 and 480 (roughly the same card) and all I can find are a couple overpriced ones and some refurbs.

 

[Sir Abacus]

Fuck miners. I'm looking at 8 GB versions of the 580 and 480 (roughly the same card) and all I can find are a couple overpriced ones and some refurbs.

Go to a local store and special order it. The supply chain is better at maintaining some semblance of a queue instead of trying to snipe incoming shipments at retail.

 

[dgrdsv]

Mining cards can't be sold on to recoup your investment into the card. Especially since gamers are now starved for GPU's they are willing to pay more for second hand.

So they aren't a solution really.

Sure they can be, as mining cards. And as a gamer I would be very suspicious of buying any second hand card which could've been used for mining anyway.

 

[Steel]

b) They are implementing some measures to fight the mining craze:

- There are special Polaris mining cards in production which are arguably a better fit for what miners require than the Radeon cards in retail or the upcoming Vega cards with their TDP.

The 580 and 480 are the best efficiency miners on the market. Hasn't stopped every other card within that general peformance range from selling out (470-1070 range). Maybe the specialized card will relieve some of the burden, but I don't see them stopping the problem.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Sure they can be, as mining cards. And as a gamer I would be very suspicious of buying any second hand card which could've been used for mining anyway.

I wouldn't ever buy a second hand card that was used for mining.

 

[Nikodemos]

Why not? Any card that withstood the stress of mining will be just fine with games. I've never had a video card die on me. Not even the broken 9800 SE I tried converting into a Pro without luck (the shaders were busted). It artifacted but didn't die till the day I replaced it.

OTOH I had 3 motherboards die on me, and a fourth I had to send back for repairs.

 

[tuxfool]

Why not? Any card that withstood the stress of mining will be just fine with games. I've never had a video card die on me. Not even the broken 9800 SE I tried converting into a Pro without luck (the shaders were busted). It artifacted but didn't die till the day I replaced it.

OTOH I had 3 motherboards die on me, and a fourth I had to send back for repairs.

I've used a card for 3 years after fixing a fried VRM, which happened while mining.

 

[GrimmGrinn]

So the local shop just announced the launch pricing for the RX vega in Singapore.

Sapphire Vega 64 water cooled -> sgd1149 (～usd845)
Sapphire Vega 64 air cooled -> sgd999 (～usd 735)

Lol

For comparison, the gigabyte 1080 G1 gaming comes at about sgd849, Aorus at sgd949, and msi gaming x at sgd1049, so they are comparable to 1080 price I suppose.

I hope the performance can justify the price.

Any news regarding Vega 56 price there?

 

[Nikodemos]

I've used a card for 3 years after fixing a fried VRM, which happened while mining.

But that's easy to spot. The card can't maintain frequency and tends to just suddenly switch off at random during load.

 

[tuxfool]

But that's easy to spot. The card can't maintain frequency and tends to just suddenly switch off at random during load.

Heh. It was even easier than that, it didn't work at all but it had a bunch of FETs with massive holes in them. The controller looked fine, so I replaced the FETs and the card never gave me any problems.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Sure they can be, as mining cards. And as a gamer I would be very suspicious of buying any second hand card which could've been used for mining anyway.

I wouldn't ever buy a second hand card that was used for mining.

No one is going to tell you they were used for mining.

 

[rtcn63]

No one is going to tell you they were used for mining.

I think a good way to tell is to ask the person why they're selling the card, and if the answer isn't "VR Kanojo got too real", then it was likely used to mine.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I think a good way to tell is to ask the person why they're selling the card, and if the answer isn't "VR Kanojo got too real", then it was likely used to mine.

Or, I'm upgrading to a 1080 or 1080ti.

 

[rtcn63]

Or, I'm upgrading to a 1080 or 1080ti.

If you haven't bought a 1080 or 1080ti instead by now...

 

[Aztechnology]

If you haven't bought a 1080 or 1080ti instead by now...

I just bought a 1080... And 1080ti. Don't judge. I caved like 9 hours after my 1080 purchase lol. But I sold my 1070 and have to sell the 1080. I do worry about the 1070 considering someone bought my MSI gaming 1070 8G for $470 that they're trying to pull something though. I documented everything from serials, to my packing job etc though so fingers crossed. Makes me nervous they may use it for mining for like a month and then return it or something though. Maybe I'm just being irrational though.

 

[rtcn63]

I just bought a 1080... And 1080ti. Don't judge. I caved like 9 hours after my 1080 purchase lol. But I sold my 1070 and have to sell the 1080. I do worry about the 1070 considering someone bought my MSI gaming 1070 8G for $470 that they're trying to pull something though. I documented everything from serials, to my packing job etc though so fingers crossed. Makes me nervous they may use it for mining for like a month and then return it or something though. Maybe I'm just being irrational though.

Yeah, that does happen. They might consider mining not worth it for them, and try to say that the card was defective.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I wouldn't ever buy a second hand card that was used for mining.

Miners don't want to kill cards either, it ruins their profits. A lot of miners figure out ways to undervolt and underclock while maintaining a good hashrate just to protect their investments.

 

[Aztechnology]

Miners don't want to kill cards either, it ruins their profits. A lot of miners figure out ways to undervolt and underclock while maintaining a good hashrate just to protect their investments.

Indeed. My 480's are heavily underclocked. They use very little power during mining (~75-80w each) temperatures are generally around 50-52c and I have a high efficiency box fan running in them at all times. Not to say that there isn't degredation from running all the time, but typically it's due to consistently high temperatures that card degrades quickly.

 

[Dehnus]

Sure they can be, as mining cards. And as a gamer I would be very suspicious of buying any second hand card which could've been used for mining anyway.

The market for abused Mining carts is far smaller than the market for abused graphics cards. The latter you can "fake" that they still work far easier, as no self respecting miner will get a mining card that another company ditches. As really why are they ditching it? If it is still profitable then use it .

Once power becomes more expensive than profit, and it can't keep up with the difficulty anymore, other miners won't be interested either.

So.. no. Mining cards are simply not the solution to the shortage.

 

[Dehnus]

Indeed. My 480's are heavily underclocked. They use very little power during mining (~75-80w each) temperatures are generally around 50-52c and I have a high efficiency box fan running in them at all times. Not to say that there isn't degredation from running all the time, but typically it's due to consistently high temperatures that card degrades quickly.

Miners don't want to kill cards either, it ruins their profits. A lot of miners figure out ways to undervolt and underclock while maintaining a good hashrate just to protect their investments.

Nope NOOOPE! Not buying your wasted ass shit. If only not to ruin the market for my gaming buddies while you guys buy up the latest of the latest to inflate price.

UNION! And any scab that does buy should be .. punished! Forced to play on a C64 for the rest of his life! .

 

[ZOONAMI]

Miners don't want to kill cards either, it ruins their profits. A lot of miners figure out ways to undervolt and underclock while maintaining a good hashrate just to protect their investments.

Yeah this, I have 2 1070s that are really more gaming cards than mining cards. I don't run anywhere near 24/7 mining. They are tdp limited to 60%, Temps under 60 when mining. I wouldnt really consider them a risky purchase second hand. They can make about $15 a day mining ether though so I'll mine here and there when I can.

 

[icecold1983]

rx vega timespy scores at varying clocks

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192756#
http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192971

 

[JaseC]

rx vega timespy scores at varying clocks

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192756#
http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192971

I'm sure I don't need to point out which Nvidia GPU those results are comparable to.

 

[DemonCleaner]

rx vega timespy scores at varying clocks

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192756#
http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192971

that's some bad scaling there.

looks indeed like a bandwith limitation

 

[icecold1983]

I'm sure I don't need to point out which Nvidia GPU those results are comparable to.

Not to me, but nothing will change thelastwords denial

that's some bad scaling there.

looks indeed like a bandwith limitation

Which scaling? Scales close to what youd expect of a fury x at these clocks. The architecture improvements dont seem to have done anything

 

[ZOONAMI]

that's some bad scaling there.

looks indeed like a bandwith limitation

Clock rates picked up by 3d mark generally don't mean much. It will record a high spike as the clock rate when that doesn't reflect the reality of the duration of the bench at all. Honestly a 7500 graphics score isn't bad. The 7700k here seems to be down clocked a bit compared to those top 1080 results too given the cpu scores. These are are early results and a 7500 graphics score is actually pretty impressive. I would imagine with some heavy work on some OC and driver improvements it will end up in the 8k range, maybe even breaking 9k, which actually does put it in 1080ti territory (stock anyway, not heavily ocd). So yeah the water cooled version of this card is priced between a 1080 and 1080ti, and that's where it's looking like performance is actually going to be. It's bad that it's taken amd this long to have something in this segment, but I guess at least they have something that does at least compete with Nvidia $500 offering.

But yeah bad that it took them a giant die to catch NVs medium sized chip 1.5 years later. It's honestly kind of crazy given Polaris is actually a pretty decent smaller/mid sized chip. It's like they would have been better off going with a larger Polaris set up and 12-16gb gddr5x honestly. Fury arch seems to be holding them back here. I know it's all gcn but a 500mm sized Polaris would be better than this right?

 

[Marmelade]

The 7700k here seems to be down clocked a bit compared to those top 1080 results too given the cpu scores..

Those look like stock 1080 results (just checked some of them) while the RX Vega is already o/c (1750MHz)
I get a 8200 graphics score with a moderately o/c 1080 for reference.

 

[icecold1983]

Clock rates picked up by 3d mark generally don't mean much. It will record a high spike as the clock rate when that doesn't reflect the reality of the duration of the bench at all. Honestly a 7500 graphics score isn't bad. The 7700k here seems to be down clocked a bit compared to those top 1080 results too given the cpu scores. These are are early results and a 7500 graphics score is actually pretty impressive. I would imagine with some heavy work on some OC and driver improvements it will end up in the 8k range, maybe even breaking 9k, which actually does put it in 1080ti territory (stock anyway, not heavily ocd). So yeah the water cooled version of this card is priced between a 1080 and 1080ti, and that's where it's looking like performance is actually going to be. It's bad that it's taken amd this long to have something in this segment, but I guess at least they have something that does at least compete with Nvidia $500 offering.

it will NEVER break into the 9k range without extreme OC

 

[ZOONAMI]

Those look like stock 1080 results (just checked some of them) while the RX Vega is already o/c (1750MHz)
I get a 8200 graphics score with a moderately o/c 1080 for reference.

Ah OK, assumed with 3d mark it was plucking top results.

 

[icecold1983]

Oc 1080ti is around 10350ish i think

 

[sfried]

Wait...did they just announce a Vega NANO?

I want to hear more about this Vega NANO.

 

[Marmelade]

Oc 1080ti is around 10350ish i think

A heavily overclocked one can go over 11k
Taken from the 1080 Ti thread

 

[icecold1983]

A heavily overclocked one can go over 11k
Taken from the 1080 Ti thread

I meant a typical OC that you can get on an average chip without modding or heavy duty cooling

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Those look like stock 1080 results (just checked some of them) while the RX Vega is already o/c (1750MHz)
I get a 8200 graphics score with a moderately o/c 1080 for reference.

No Pascal is actually run not OC'd.

If Vega can only keep up with a non-OC 1080 then youarealreadydead.jpg insofar as gaming is concerned.

They better hope miners will buy all the Vega's.

 

[Aztechnology]

I meant a typical OC that you can get on an average chip without modding or heavy duty cooling

Yea, the 1080ti, isn't a great overclocker. You have to flash with modded bios to really push your card and then it's kind of a crapshoot with the silicon lottery. Most the AIB cards are already up there near that kind of approximal 2000mhz maximum the card has for most give and take a little.

I decided not to push mine farther because of this and the OC is kind of meh, maybe 5-6%. Good for thermals though I guess.

 

[ISee]

rx vega timespy scores at varying clocks

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192756#
http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/2192971

For comparision: A (my) 1080 @ 2050 MHz --> 8125 GPU Score (+7.2% over a RX Vega 64 running at 1750 MHz, which is probably also on the higher end of the oc table)

3D Mark link

edit: Their 7700k CPU score is surprisingly low...

 

[thelastword]

Wait...did they just announce a Vega NANO?

I want to hear more about this Vega NANO.

Nothing concrete yet as far as specs, but AMD gave one to Tim Sweeney at siggraph...

https://www.techpowerup.com/235660/amd-announces-the-radeon-rx-vega-nano


https://thetechdudz.com/amd-radeon-rx-vega-nano-pictures-and-short-details/

 

[Rushersauce]

I bet the 56 and Nano will be the best of the bunch regarding perf/price, sadly.
AMD needs a GPU RYZEN

 

[ethomaz]

These 3Dmark scores...