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Rail shooters: Where are they?
- Thread starter U5230
- Start date
TheHeretic
Banned
"The Club" isn't exactly a rail shooter (or even at all), but it has a lot of the same principles as a rail shooter. Ok so its a stretch, but thats the experience I got from The Club.
Joseph Merrick
Member
latest Call of Duty game didn't come out that long ago. eh eh
A Black Falcon
Member
Dascu said:
Indeed. It's quite simple. In a rail shooter you can control your movement on the screen and are always moving forward (unless you're at a boss fight). In a lightgun game, you just shoot things and have no control over your movement. You also often stay on one static screen for a while killing all the enemies there before you move on, unlike in rail shooters.
Now, many games mix genres somewhat -- like how Star Fox 64 has those open-flight "All Range Mode" parts, or something like Rebel Assault... but that's the basic difference.
I'd like to see Nagoshi's team go for it again myself, if they can ever get out of RGGcycling. Hell, even an improved Orta Wiimake would make me happy. And speaking of SEGA ports, who do I have to kill to get that Sumo-powered ABC 360 port?Perdew said:
Treasure should get to do Star Fox... I mean it can't turn out any worse than RARE, Namco or Q-Games.
Confusion Illusion
Banned
I love Panzer Dragoon Orta. It was one of the reasons I got an Xbox.
It would be nice to see a new PD on Wii, but since Smilebit/Team Andromeda is no more I don't know how that would turn out.
It would be nice to see a new PD on Wii, but since Smilebit/Team Andromeda is no more I don't know how that would turn out.
jarrod said:
I'm trying really hard to not go on a Treasure tangent here ;x
I've heard a lot of people hate on Orta, though. I personally loved it, but a lot of people felt it killed the spirit of the series. I've only played the original and Orta, so I can't compare too much.
I'd love to see a new Sin and Punishment, though, simply because the N64 one was hideous. I loved the art direction, but it just couldn't be realized on that system.
Himuro said:
C'mon, S&P and PDO are the two poster boys for the genre, with Rez usually thrown in for good measure.
I really made the suggestion because I want ex-smilebit (I'm not sure in what form they exist, you seem to know better?) to make a new Jet Set Radio. It could be a rail-shooter for all I care.
Eh, I just don't think Treasure could do the Panzer artistry justice (and I LOVE Treasure)... meanwhile their oddball sensibilities would make a perfect marriage with Star Fox imo (which is the tighter series gameplay wise anyway, which is where Treasure really shines).Perdew said:
And honestly, I think a lot of the complaints about Orta center around the art and aesthetic... it just went too far from the Mobius/Nausicaa inspired source material. And you can bet any Treasure game would likely go farther.
jarrod said:
Regardless of who develops the potential sequel gameplay wise, I'd like to think Sega would allow the art direction to be handled by whomever was in charge of the original few (again, pardon my ignorance on the game developers, I didn't follow the series that closely aside from PDO).
gregor7777
Banned
This classification confuses me.
What's the difference between this and a some SHMUP's?
Constantly moving, controlled fire (any direction), moveable character along the rail...
for instance:
What's the difference between this and a some SHMUP's?
Constantly moving, controlled fire (any direction), moveable character along the rail...
for instance:
A Black Falcon
Member
gregor7777 said:This classification confuses me.
What's the difference between this and a some SHMUP's?
Constantly moving, controlled fire (any direction), moveable character along the rail...
for instance:
2d or 2.5d top or side view - shmup
3d Into-the-screen scrolling - rail shooter
They are very similar categories.
gregor7777
Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Ah, it has to be 3d. That answers that then.
So it seems to me the rail shooter is the 3d evolution of the 2d SHMUP.
MistakenMobius
Member
We need a new Rebel assault...
gregor7777
Banned
Himuro said:
So the 'into-the-screen' is the key part? Besides the other stuff already discussed.
Unfortunately, I don't think many of Team Andromeda are still left at SEGA. UGA had most of who were still there iirc, and they mostly left after Sonic Team ate the division. The Saturn trilogy were gorgeous art wise though... out modern games, I think Team Ueda's stuff comes closest in it's sensibilities. Most of the ex-Panzer guys are at Artoon, feelplus or Land Ho now I guess.Perdew said:
Still though, Treasure and Star Fox seem like a perfect match imo. Tight crunchy controls, chain based scoring, multilayered transforming boss battles, achievement based route progression, ridiculous talking animals... c'mon, you can't honestly tell me you don't want to see Treasure's take on Slippy?
Death_Born
Banned
A Black Falcon said:
Basically, if enemies are all arranged on a single plane with equal distance on the Z-axis, its' a SHMUP.
If the enemies are in 3D but you're travelling in a line, it's a rail shooter.
If the enemies are in 3D and you can move in any direction, it's an FPS.
Death_Born
Banned
pn18 said:
How about making a Panzer Dragoon clone.
I'm sure they'll be interested :lol
A Black Falcon
Member
Himuro said:
Yeah, I was thinking of saying 3d or "3d", to account for sprite-based ones like that, but I thought that that's close enough... Space Harrier is kind of 3d, after all.
Dave Long said:
Shmup is a subgenre of shooter that includes just 2d side or horizontal auto-scrolling shooters... given the way FPS has taken over the "shooter" term and that many other subgenres are also included within it -- such arena shooters like Robotron or Geometry Wars for instance -- I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a genre for just the shmups.
Himuro said:
Shooting down enemy attacks? Huh? Maybe rarely, but in most rail shooters I've played, the emphasis is indeed on dodging attacks... but yes, they are third person, behind-the-character, auto-scrolling games, which generally means into-the-screen.
Death_Born said:
Apart from needing to clearly separate out light gun games from that, yes.
MistakenMobius said:
So cheesy, but probably because it's one of the first CD games I ever owned, I still love it anyway... but it is hard to categorize, beyond "action". It's one part rail shooter, one part third-person flight (like a rail shooter, but just avoiding things, not shooting), one part vertical shmup (in a couple very short segments), one part lightgun-style shooter (except you can hide behind cover too; while hiding you cannot attack, but also can't be hit), one part lightgun-style shooter in the ship's cockpit (with no control over your movements; just move the cursor around and fire)... it's got quite a mix of subgeres.
No, I mean, you don't control your movement, just the aiming of the crosshairs. I believe there was a game like that on N64, also some 90's PC games.
edit: this game http://youtube.com/watch?v=m-BSHS-cQb8
edit: this game http://youtube.com/watch?v=m-BSHS-cQb8
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I would kill for a new Starfox game. The stage in Brawl didn't help my hunger for it.
A Black Falcon
Member
agrajag said:
Indeed, Knife Edge Nose Gunner or other similar titles are lightgun-style shooters (as far as I know, they're still called that whether or not they actually support lightguns...), not rail shooters. For it to be a rail shooter you have to be able to actually move the ship around the screen.
Well, to be fair, Knife Edge does have limited movement, with the C buttons. But the movement is so limited that it really is no different from the limited movement in Time Crisis games.
I'd like to point out though that every media writeup on the game referred to it as a rail shooter, rather than a light gun game. I don't think you can designate a light gun genre on games that were designed from the groundup to be controled with an interface other than a light gun. I would imagine the game would play quite differently and the difficulty level significantly lowered were you to use a lightgun in that game instead of dragging the crosshairs across the screen with the thumbstick. If it was made to be used with a light gun it would probably lead to different design choices.
I'd like to point out though that every media writeup on the game referred to it as a rail shooter, rather than a light gun game. I don't think you can designate a light gun genre on games that were designed from the groundup to be controled with an interface other than a light gun. I would imagine the game would play quite differently and the difficulty level significantly lowered were you to use a lightgun in that game instead of dragging the crosshairs across the screen with the thumbstick. If it was made to be used with a light gun it would probably lead to different design choices.
This reminds me of trying to play Lethal Enforcers on the SNES using the Dpad. God, what a horrible idea that was. It starts out okay, but about halfway through enemies just show up flat out too fast for you to hit them all. Good example of how a lightgun game gets designed differently, they know you can aim a LOT faster using a lightgun than a dpad, joystick, or something like that.agrajag said:
Mo0 said:
Too true. However, that wasn't a problem with some PC games where you aimed with a mouse. I can't for the life of me name any, though. I think I played a game like that made by Interplay, I think it had pre-rendered backgrounds.
There should be more games like that on the Wii. Not old acrade light gun ports, but games build from the groundup. I guess more like Umbrella Chronicles, but in different settings. I would be all over a game like Knife Edge on the Wii.
Himuro mentioned the flying mini-game in Zelda, I thought it was awesome, I'd love to see games like that. Maybe on WiiWare even.
A Black Falcon
Member
agrajag said:
Even if that's true, anyone who called it a "rail shooter" was wrong. Having very limited nudging elements is something seen in some rail shooters -- for instance, in some of the rail shooting parts of the Rebel Assault games -- but it doesn't make those rail shooter levels, that's for sure. The types of gameplay between the two subgenres are very different, I don't see how it could be easy to confuse them really once you know the difference...
No, it's about gameplay, and the two gameplay styles are different. In one you move around the screen, dodging fire and shooting. In the other you are in a static position (or perhaps one you can barely move, generally for environmental obstacles and not to avoid enemy fire). Instead, you just move around a target and shoot the enemies as they appear on screen before they can shoot you or run into you and do damage. In these games you can frequently also sometimes enemy shots down to keep them from hitting you.
Whether or not it actually uses a lightgun or not doesn't matter. The basic gameplay is the same. Slightly different to adjust for the slow movement of the cursor, sure, but the same.
Orta is BC, and it plays/looks fantastic.fartblast said:
However, if you're in PAL territory, the game will freeze at mission 3, thereby being unplayable.
I payed premium price to grab a new copy of this when the BC was announced (40-60 bucks? I forget), and it was easily worth that.
