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Rain World |OT| Concrete Jungle
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
This game follows every formula that I usually dislike, like the metroidvania map style that forces you to see the same place again and again; save points very far from each other, and very high difficulty levels. Yet I bough it this morning and I'm excited to try it when I get home tonight. But with all these criticism I'm starting to consider if I should ask for a refund and wait for improvement patches, and get 'Night in the Woods' instead. I'm reeeealy not into frustrating stuff, no matter how good it is. For example, I effin LOVED Bloodborne (my first and only Soulsborne game), but I reached a moment very far ahead on the game where I simply stopped caring about it. It was not worth it anymore and it got boring and annoying for me, so I gave up. Rain World, despite the fact that it follows all the wrong formulas for my tastes, seems so captivating that even a broke piece of sh*t like me bought it on the release date, something I usually don't do. I'm really interested to the idea of a slow paced survival game, and I'm okay to the idea of the impossibility of escaping death due to randomness and advanced AI in a game so focused on nature, and in nature death sometimes is inescapable. But reading about this rank system got me worried. It doesn't seem to make sense to lock regions of the map for this gamey feature in a game that tries so hard to be natural. I don't know, I'm conflicted. Should I ask for a refund, Gaf? Devs, what are your plans currently?
YianGaruga
Banned
But apparently there's more to it than that. That was easy enough to figure out. But my Rank column now branches out into three directions with dots randomly filling up and titles changing form "Survivor" to "Chieftain" to "Wanderer" without any pattern I can see so far.
This is starting to look like the cryptic FEZ BS. And I was here thinking that the ranking served only to open doors (which sucks, btw).
BigBeauford
Gold Member
Got pretty far initially after the first hibernation. Was making good progress then I heard the rumblings of rain. Made it to a big open chasm and saw a hibernation door. With the rain coming, I thought "no time to waste"! I jumped forward and was snagged by a plant. It was a slow agonizing 10 seconds as it dragged me down
Btw how do we read the map. Are the blue pulsating circles hibernation points?
Btw how do we read the map. Are the blue pulsating circles hibernation points?
it's rank protection. Prevents you dropping rank when you die
Blue circles are bat rooms.
Hibernation chambers you have to recognise by their shape
I'm really liking the game so far, but I'm a bit confused why the devs made the game so punishing when it comes to the ranks (you die, you lose a rank). Especially when the game is fairly difficult already thanks to the enemy randomization (which is cool and makes the game quite tense) and one-hit kills. The rank system just seems superfluous. All it does is making you grind food and sleep when you reach a gate.
Devs are regrouping and discussing - we want to take the input 10000000% seriously but also want to make thought out and informed decisions. Also there are a few pretty minor tweaks that would make the game a lot more accessible! Thanks for all the feedback so far, we're still around and listening ~
Messofanego
Banned
I wish the throwing wasn't so unreliable and not being able to aim my throw. I've got to be right up to eye level with the animal and then hit them. Caused me quite a few deaths missing the lizards and then fumbling for my life.
That's optional stuff. It's lore and achievement related, sometimes. The doors only have the normal symbols.
You did go the hard way, tho. Going through the industrial complex is much easier (and also a much more obvious route)
Also, besides liking the game or not, it's one of the prettiest 2D game ever. There are some spectactular and breathtaking moments. Also has a really unique and cool artstyle.
That's great to hear, I personally think there's nothing wrong with the game or difficulty, but i do find the rank system overly punishing atm. It just makes me less inclined to explore the world because I don't want to needlessly die and lose a rank and have to grind for food and sleep to regain my rank. I've only played a couple of hours at this point sure, so my complaints might change but that's what I feel about it so far.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Just put the game down after an hour. Loved it, but the intensity and need to concentrate on both planning and execution made my tired old brain a bit sore. A lot of things came back to me from playing the alpha last year, which I suppose helped.
In some ways the sprawling multi directional exploration, mixed with the ferocity of the environment reminded me of some old BBC-B games I used to play. Only on steroids, because they never looked or moved anything like this.
I think it's fantastic so far, but all I've done is find one other shelter. Taking a break and going again.
In some ways the sprawling multi directional exploration, mixed with the ferocity of the environment reminded me of some old BBC-B games I used to play. Only on steroids, because they never looked or moved anything like this.
I think it's fantastic so far, but all I've done is find one other shelter. Taking a break and going again.
It's nice to know that we are being heard, i liked the idea that JamesPrimate mentioned about having an alternate narrative with tweaks to make it "easier".
but it seems like the ranks is the most frustrating thing for some players.
So I finally ranked up and got past a gate, only to get killed by the rain and respawn back at last checkpoint with a rank down below the gate requirement. Out of frustration I exited the game and when I returned to the game after a short break I see that I lost another rank for quitting the game...
Yeah, really not a fan of this rank system at all lol
EDIT: Welp, didn't take long until I lost all my ranks
Yeah, really not a fan of this rank system at all lol
EDIT: Welp, didn't take long until I lost all my ranks
Damn, your post made me laugh, but yeah, as it has been said before, you need to exit after reaching your checkpoint.
That's honestly all I would like the rank system to be. It's cool to see some feedback for how you are playing the game. Can't quite comment on the frustration point yet of the rank system as I haven't made it far enough, but it seems like just a really weird gate in a game where your influence with the world comes through your actions. Also it just seems to get in the way of exploring and experimenting with the ecosystem which feels like a big part of the game.
Net_Wrecker
Member
Making the rank system less punishing would alleviate much of the frustration. It's one thing calling the game "hard" because you're incredibly underpowered and the dynamic ecosystem can put you in tough situations, but the added layer of losing a rank for experimenting is really rough. I wouldn't jump to removing the rank system as the answer, just maybe have it so that once a player reaches a rank, they're there permanently. That makes the experience revolve completely around player knowledge, finding food, and avoiding predators, without the grind of getting the rank back to where you need it.
More_Badass
Member
I think Waypoint's article described it well
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...e-stalker-but-a-platformer-and-youre-a-rodent
What are the hidden one hit kill enemies?
The poles? Cause you can know as soon as there one in the area (the music changes)
Also, you can escape if it grabs you with a rock or spear, and can quickly jump off before it really gets a hold of you
Also, you can escape if it grabs you with a rock or spear, and can quickly jump off before it really gets a hold of you
Net_Wrecker
Member
Yeah I have have no issue with "random" inescapable deaths from OP predators. Part of the "fun" here is being low on the food chain. A camo lizard or aggressive plant blending into the environment jump scare is totally in keeping with that theme. The issue is compounding things that are, sometimes, out of your control with a loss of rank that takes a toll on your progression. It's the difference between "Oh nature, you so scary" to "GODDAMNIT NO"
Going by that Waypoint article, I'm gonna call this bad game design then.
Just played for about an hour and I just got to the
which seems to be the second area. Really liking it so far. I absolutely do not get the complaints about the controls. With the exception of Slugcat entering vents butt first it's been more than fine for me. I actually like the tactile feel of the movement.
Also with regards to the difficulty. Yes you die, you (can) die a lot. But enemies showing up are clearly signaled through colours and I love how tense things can get when multiple enemies are aware of you presence. The karma system may turn out to be a bit of a bitch but so far it's been fine for me. I tend to venture out of my hibernation shelter for a bit, eat up to at least 4 and explore the area around me. When I've been out for 10 - 15 minutes or have explored a lot of ground I tend to head back to my old shelter, or, if I see a shelter nearby, I hibernate there. I think that is the way progression was meant for the game, it also ensure you rank up frequently, and I'm liking it so far. Of course things will probably get tougher soon!
Industrial zone
Also with regards to the difficulty. Yes you die, you (can) die a lot. But enemies showing up are clearly signaled through colours and I love how tense things can get when multiple enemies are aware of you presence. The karma system may turn out to be a bit of a bitch but so far it's been fine for me. I tend to venture out of my hibernation shelter for a bit, eat up to at least 4 and explore the area around me. When I've been out for 10 - 15 minutes or have explored a lot of ground I tend to head back to my old shelter, or, if I see a shelter nearby, I hibernate there. I think that is the way progression was meant for the game, it also ensure you rank up frequently, and I'm liking it so far. Of course things will probably get tougher soon!
Right. If you want to kill me randomly, in ways that are essentially unavoidable, then don't take away my progress so punitively.
More_Badass
Member
The whole point is that you're completely outmatched by pretty much everything else in the world. A mouse being snatched by a hawk or grabbed by a toad or crunched by a snake feels unfair for the mouse too. That's the appeal here: being the mouse
I think it's awesome. :3
So the perspective should be shifted from "is this good game design" to "why am I wasting my time?"
More_Badass
Member
That's a wholly subjective question, isn't it?
I like being in this world, being hunted, barely surviving, exploring the ruined worlds, seeing what crazy creature I encounter next, seeing animals interact and using those interactions to my advantage
the perspective should be "this game is quite different than most games", really. Nothing to do with bad game design or "why i'm wasting my time"
The rank system on the otherhand, that's iffy
also: almost every single "one hit death" can be avoided, even after you're caught. Like i said, learn to use what you have for your advantage. In the end, for me, lizards were really easy to deal with, even the invisible/long tongue ones
The rank system on the otherhand, that's iffy
also: almost every single "one hit death" can be avoided, even after you're caught. Like i said, learn to use what you have for your advantage. In the end, for me, lizards were really easy to deal with, even the invisible/long tongue ones
Exactly. I have nothing against being "underpowered" and dying to predators in this game, that is honestly the theme and charm of the game. But being punished for it and having to basically redo and grind areas to progress is just frustrating and punishing for the sake of it.
Good to know in the future.
bender
What time is it?
I guess but I was still confused as I wasn't sure how/why your symbol changes. I only played for an hour or two last night so maybe I was just tired.
What's the appeal in finally reaching a shelter after 10+ minutes of exploring/surviving only to have a max-rank gate next to it and nowhere else to go? (but backwards)
Here's the thing about the Waypoint quote:
It is easy to make a game very hard, it has a long history, and It is not "subversive". Simply never explain things to the player, and make enemies much stronger and more mobile. Even John Carmack commented on how easy it was, in principle, to make Quake harder: just give enemies perfect aim. This kind of design was more evident in the days of arcades, and in the 8-bit console days. There were lots of games that were immensely punitive: think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on the NES.
But while playing TMNT and dying on the water level, over and over again, I never thought how my humanity had been challenged, and suddenly the flattery of Super Mario Bros had been revealed to me. Instead, it just felt cheap. And I stopped playing. And this is coming from someone who loves the Souls games.
It is easy to make a game very hard, it has a long history, and It is not "subversive". Simply never explain things to the player, and make enemies much stronger and more mobile. Even John Carmack commented on how easy it was, in principle, to make Quake harder: just give enemies perfect aim. This kind of design was more evident in the days of arcades, and in the 8-bit console days. There were lots of games that were immensely punitive: think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on the NES.
But while playing TMNT and dying on the water level, over and over again, I never thought how my humanity had been challenged, and suddenly the flattery of Super Mario Bros had been revealed to me. Instead, it just felt cheap. And I stopped playing. And this is coming from someone who loves the Souls games.
More_Badass
Member
I think I, and many others, have discussed our criticisms of that. Hell, I was probably the loudest voice about the game on GAF and yet...
That system feels completely at odds with the game, gameplay, and atmosphere.
Thankfully the devs are very responsive to criticisms and on improving the game for the better
eyeball_kid
Member
I'm just going by what I'm reading so far, but I think they walk a fine line between game and art installation when there's enemies you simply can't evade or defend against.
Regarding the rank system, the game itself is player-hostile, which is fine; it's meant to be brutally hard to survive. But the rank system sounds more user-hostile: a gamey meta-level gate designed to artificially impede progress (for whatever reason).
Enjoying it so far. It's mysterious and cryptic. Possibly overtly so, we'll see. It does feel very trial and error at the moment though, and I've died more times to the rain than anything else, it's tough to find somewhere to hibernate when it starts to rain. I assume that's the only way to avoid it?
Some cool moments though, I got grabbed by a purple lizard and the game over screen came up but then a green lizard rolled up and they started fighting and I got dropped and was able to carry on.
Some cool moments though, I got grabbed by a purple lizard and the game over screen came up but then a green lizard rolled up and they started fighting and I got dropped and was able to carry on.
To continue from my post earlier, I made it through the gate which required the 4th symbol and started to look for a safe room with a sense of inquisitive dread. Some tough platforming followed for a while until a new enemy killed me in one swift strike. All the way back to the pre-symbol safe room with a requirement to gather more food.
So around this checkpoint there are 3 screens to the left I can get enough food (always seems to even out at 4 from fruit or flying things) but there are axolotls around and one of of vine things. Collected some food and went back to the screen before safe room and a random pink one fell out of the sky from the scene above with no warning. Instant death. So now I need to grind this same area and go through the whole slow hibernate thing at least two more times (each run takes roughly 5 minutes)... I do another one, trigger the plant on the way past but it's okay. Gather food. Come back being chased by purple axolotl, must have messed up the dpad as I didn't grip the pole I wanted and go straight into the plant which kills me with no escape possible. So now I've got to grind this at least three times just to open soor, plus an additional one for food on the way so i can hopefully find a safe room or prepare to grind out those three screens twice to start exploring the new area again.
Had to take a breather as it's just not fun repeating the same small area and grinding three screens at least 10+ times (few minutes each time) just to have a chance of progressing isn't good design nor am I sure this is intentional? I can't see how this current system benefits the game at all. If there was a safe room within a few screens after passing the door it wouldn't be as large an issue but instead of exploring the game I've been on the same few screens for far too long learning nothing and getting a sore thumb from pressing the dpad hard to ensure I don't miss holding on to a bar. Hope this is not indicative of the rest of the game because I was enjoying it very much prior to the repetition.
So around this checkpoint there are 3 screens to the left I can get enough food (always seems to even out at 4 from fruit or flying things) but there are axolotls around and one of of vine things. Collected some food and went back to the screen before safe room and a random pink one fell out of the sky from the scene above with no warning. Instant death. So now I need to grind this same area and go through the whole slow hibernate thing at least two more times (each run takes roughly 5 minutes)... I do another one, trigger the plant on the way past but it's okay. Gather food. Come back being chased by purple axolotl, must have messed up the dpad as I didn't grip the pole I wanted and go straight into the plant which kills me with no escape possible. So now I've got to grind this at least three times just to open soor, plus an additional one for food on the way so i can hopefully find a safe room or prepare to grind out those three screens twice to start exploring the new area again.
Had to take a breather as it's just not fun repeating the same small area and grinding three screens at least 10+ times (few minutes each time) just to have a chance of progressing isn't good design nor am I sure this is intentional? I can't see how this current system benefits the game at all. If there was a safe room within a few screens after passing the door it wouldn't be as large an issue but instead of exploring the game I've been on the same few screens for far too long learning nothing and getting a sore thumb from pressing the dpad hard to ensure I don't miss holding on to a bar. Hope this is not indicative of the rest of the game because I was enjoying it very much prior to the repetition.
More_Badass
Member
Yes they can. Animals in the game are as mobile as you, and act independently of you (traveling between screens, hunting, fighting with each other, etc.). Think STALKER and Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
They can, but it's very obvious when one is - the pipe blinks the colour of the enemy if it's near the entrance on the other side, and when it's actually travelling through the lights on the pipe show you how close it is to reaching you.
The world design of the game appeals to me as a big fan of pikmin, I love post-apocalyptic settings with weird wildlife, so just exploring the world is fun and seeing new creatures is enough of a reward to make me want to progress more.
But I just can't get fully into it yet, I haven't really run into a part of the game where my rank is negatively affecting me other than not being able to go back to the outskirts so that hasn't been a problem yet.
I think my main problem is the map, both it's general design and how it resets any progress since your last hibernation when you die. If it saved whatever you've seen, was zoomed out more, showed up instantly rather than slowly filling out and paused your game I wouldn't care so much that I'm constantly dying or exploring the exact same places that I've already explored except coming into the room from a different doorway.
Luckily the rooms aren't particularly samey so there's no confusion as to if I've been here before, but having the map stick would let me pick a direction I haven't fully explored yet and set myself a goal for this life, rather than some slight trial and error because I can't remember which of the 4 exits in this room I haven't been in before and then the one that I pick just leads me to somewhere else I've already been to the point where I don't know which way I haven't been anymore unless I manage to find a brand new room.
But I just can't get fully into it yet, I haven't really run into a part of the game where my rank is negatively affecting me other than not being able to go back to the outskirts so that hasn't been a problem yet.
I think my main problem is the map, both it's general design and how it resets any progress since your last hibernation when you die. If it saved whatever you've seen, was zoomed out more, showed up instantly rather than slowly filling out and paused your game I wouldn't care so much that I'm constantly dying or exploring the exact same places that I've already explored except coming into the room from a different doorway.
Luckily the rooms aren't particularly samey so there's no confusion as to if I've been here before, but having the map stick would let me pick a direction I haven't fully explored yet and set myself a goal for this life, rather than some slight trial and error because I can't remember which of the 4 exits in this room I haven't been in before and then the one that I pick just leads me to somewhere else I've already been to the point where I don't know which way I haven't been anymore unless I manage to find a brand new room.
Net_Wrecker
Member
As gaming matures, we're increasingly seeing this problem of how to translate ideas and themes through gameplay and mechanic based storytelling. Thematically, I think the rank system does its job in forcing you to survive for a cycle or 2 (or 3 or 4) in one area before moving on. When you hit a situation like Jett describes above where a higher level gate impedes your progress, what you do is hunker down and just find food for a few cycles. Your runs transform from "Forward progress" to "Survive." Then when you hit the proper rank, you move forward. That's actualization of the slugcat becoming confident enough to move to a new location. In theory, that's fine.
The disconnect comes from you dying and losing a rank. Not only is that user-hostile in that it forces you to grind a location longer than necessary, but it works against the idea that every "run" is a self contained thing beyond your food, like on a pure mechanic level. If everything else resets to where you saved, why are you losing a rank with every death? I'd agree that it's overly gamey, and works against the rest of the game trying to create a dynamic and brutally hard, but natural (as in "Nature") experience.
It's not saving what you, the player, has seen, it's saving what the slugcat has seen. This is why the map fills in gradually when you pull it up, in the same way you visualize roads in your mind. And it doesn't pause the game to keep tensions high. You can't sit there and plot a course forever because you're in hostile territory and if a predator doesn't kill you, the rain will.
Thinking about it, not leveling down on death might make it too easy to progress. Maybe way to solve that would be to spread "level up" items across the map and don't level up on hibernation/don't level down on death. That encourages exploration over just doing multiple eat/hibernation loops.