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[mkenyon]

So you mean a game that's trying to be more tactical doesn't please fans of fast-paced FPS games that are going in a different direction? Of course people die quickly if it's trying to be more realistic in damage and gadgets have been a part of R6 since day one which you should know if you supposedly played SP and coop. MP was fun and different than most.

Don't like slower FPS games? Don't play, but this is Rainbow Six, not COD. If anything, they're making it too similar to other FPS games with some of the things shown in this stream. Why would it suddenly become a fast-paced MP game that makes bullets more like bb's? This is them trying to find the middle ground and return to form compared to Vegas. If people don't like it, then we'll find out with the sales, but wanting R6 to be different is crazy. Skill doesn't revolve around being able to turn around and kill someone who fired on you first, but playing smart and thinking. That is skill in a different way, and I'm sure a good team could breach with some speed and surprise the other team just as easily as taking it extremely slow because in the end, it's all about cooperation and strategy. I'm not going to run in there like this another FPS game and then blame the TTK.

Mediocrity is how COD mechanics find their way into every FPS game and how no one cares about winning anymore since it's all about their personal progression and XP. This game isn't killing the FPS genre, but games like COD killed the tactical genre when developers convinced themselves that it's the only type of FPS game people want.

Not liking a game is one thing, but to act like it has to conform to every other FPS or else it's bringing down the genre is absurd just because it's slower-paced and people die by bullets like you'd expect. Now I'm reminded why the SWAT series is gone...

Edit: And this is someone who found the pre-release videos of Advanced Warfare to have some low TTK for a COD game. They're completely different games and I understand wanting it higher there, but not in this...

I like how you assume I'm a fan of CoD. I'd leverage just about every single complaint I have watching this against CoD as well. However, this game does in fact conform to a vast majority of the FPSs out there. Low TTK, movement not being as integral as quickly aiming and spraying in a general direction, ADS required, and a modern "gadgety" theme.

How is this really a departure from other successful FPS games? My argument: It's in fact a refinement on the worst aspects of those wildly popular games. These aspects pander to mediocrity and dilute any sense of accomplishment or ability in a game that is attempting to bill itself as inherently competitive.

It's like presenting a new sport. This one is like basketball, but you aren't allowed to move while you have the ball. And every player must keep their feet on the ground while attempting to shoot the basketball. No players above 6' either, cause everyone needs a chance to be able to block or shoot over everyone else. We can't let someone actually be good at it, they might make other players not have fun. Also, all players get a trophy for being a part of the league!

Now, just to reiterate, I'm not shitting on the idea of a Rainbow 6 with coop or singleplayer. I'm commenting on Rainbow 6: Siege as presented, which is a competitive 4v4 game. In this regard, what they showed today was not good. If they show some coop terrorist hunt, that's something entirely different that warrants a different narrative.

 

[cackhyena]

But low TTK and ads are what you would be going for if you are shooting for semi realism in an fps, I would think.

 

[mkenyon]

But low TTK and ads are what you would be going for if you are shooting for semi realism in an fps, I would think.

I see this as a semi-valid argument. On one hand, that's true *to an extent*. On the other hand, guys in full body armor do pretty well against small caliber firearms.

Now, outside of actually discussing whether or not low TTK and ADS actually do add to realism, in creating a VIDEO GAME that is based around being competitive, every single limitation placed on player agency is another strike against how awesome any one person can be. Of course, some limits are absolutely necessary as they create the framework of what the game is about.

But making it so a person of a very low skill level can do okay against someone of a very high skill level based on a roll of the dice, then you've eliminated the very essence of what competition is.

 

[cackhyena]

So what are the limitations in player agency you are referring to?

This game could use more realistic movement speeds, recoil, and weapon characteristics. You know.. like the old games!

I'm all for that stuff.

 

[Dictator93]

But low TTK and ads are what you would be going for if you are shooting for semi realism in an fps, I would think.

At the same time, you would try and also tune player movement and animation speeds unless you are trying to make some sort of speed running rail gun shooter. A the moment, the gun swivels fast, has low recoil, has mid magazine merge reloading, and hit markers, on top of a ton of other tiny things.

This game could use more realistic movement speeds, recoil, and weapon characteristics. You know.. like the old games!

 

[mkenyon]

So what are the limitations in player agency you are referring to?

Movement. Making exposure to any threat a likely unpreventable death further discourages movement. The game mode discourages movement. Making each person essentially stop in order to kill someone else makes them an easy target for periods at a time. Making the movement itself slow feeds back into the prior three points.

These all tied to a system where someone who is horrible at the game can step in and feel like they accomplish something, just because game mechanics are so overwhelmingly stringent, that you can't really be that great. What's the point of competition if there's such a low cap on how good you can be at it? It's like the FPS equivalent of Yahtzee.

At the same time, you would try and also tune player movement and animation speeds unless you are trying to make some sort of speed running rail gun shooter. A the moment, the gun swivels fast, has low recoil, has mid magazine merge reloading, and hit markers, on top of a ton of other tiny things.

This game could use more realistic movement speeds, recoil, and weapon characteristics. You know.. like the old games!

Something more akin to Red Orchestra, but in the vein of Rainbow 6. See, neither of those things were billed as competitive games. They're fun simulators.

Ubi is definitely trying to give this game an eSport vibe, which I think honestly ruins it for both camps. Those who would prefer a realistic Rainbow 6, and those who enjoy competition.

 

[PenDynasty]

I hope that x-ray does not make it into the release.

 

[cackhyena]

Movement. Making exposure to any threat a likely unpreventable death further discourages movement. The game mode discourages movement. Making each person essentially stop in order to kill someone else makes them an easy target for periods at a time. Making the movement itself slow feeds back into the prior three points.

These all tied to a system where someone who is horrible at the game can step in and feel like they accomplish something, just because game mechanics are so overwhelmingly stringent, that you can't really be that great. What's the point of competition if there's such a low cap on how good you can be at it? It's like the FPS equivalent of Yahtzee.

I guess I just don't mind that stuff. Slow, deliberate movement. Fortifying positions, clearing rooms and using gadgets. It's a refreshing change of pace from something as frenetic as CoD or BF, yet it brings it's own tension. It sounds like your'e describing CS, honestly. A game that gets out of the player's way with things and gets down to raw, twitch movement and hip fire. I'm glad this is setting itself apart. Same as the Vegas games did. *shrugs*

 

[Jonesy7707]

https://youtu.be/aU3xLSXX8m4

Jack pretty much nailed my exact thoughts after watching the livestream. Outside of those points the game looks awesome to me so hopefully they can tweak and add/remove a few things to get it up to where the majority of us want it to be.

I'm still holding out very slight hope that they can take this game in one direction and not 3 or 4 as it appears to be.

 

[MJLord]

https://youtu.be/aU3xLSXX8m4

Jack pretty much nailed my exact thoughts after watching the livestream. Outside of those points the game looks awesome to me so hopefully they can tweak and add/remove a few things to get it up to where the majority of us want it to be.

I'm still holding out very slight hope that they can take this game in one direction and not 3 or 4 as it appears to be.

Yeah I thought the same when he started talking about the identity crisis. Hit markers and crap loads of ammo? Why? It doesn't seem like there was any thought in it. It's a "It's just what shooters have" attitude.

 

[Bsigg12]

The game looks awesome.

 

[Jonesy7707]

IGN replay of Alpha gameplay...

http://youtu.be/J4ls3xtcP1A

 

[mkenyon]

I guess I just don't mind that stuff. Slow, deliberate movement. Fortifying positions, clearing rooms and using gadgets. It's a refreshing change of pace from something as frenetic as CoD or BF, yet it brings it's own tension. It sounds like your'e describing CS, honestly. A game that gets out of the player's way with things and gets down to raw, twitch movement and hip fire. I'm glad this is setting itself apart. Same as the Vegas games did. *shrugs*

I'm actually describing something like Quake, Tribes, or Dirty Bomb.

 

[Keasar]

https://youtu.be/aU3xLSXX8m4

Jack pretty much nailed my exact thoughts after watching the livestream. Outside of those points the game looks awesome to me so hopefully they can tweak and add/remove a few things to get it up to where the majority of us want it to be.

I'm still holding out very slight hope that they can take this game in one direction and not 3 or 4 as it appears to be.

Good video, summed it up pretty well.

I just hope they take it to this feedback and aim for the hardcore (but a little more accessible) shooter thing. My cynical side however says that Ubisoft will say that they need sales and to get sales they need to appeal to the casual market and to appeal to the casual market they have to implement everything that everyone else does instead of carving out a niche of their own and it will in the end hurt the game a lot.

 

[Pachimari]

Do we know when the closed alpha is starting?
And when the beta starts?

Have we heard the music in the game yet?
The one in Rainbow Six 3 were so catchy and is still in my head.