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RAW photo format

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First of all: wow. I bought my first DSLR (Nikon D40) after years of using normal camera. I was always using some fency models (my last one being a Panasonic TZ3 with a 10x optical zoom) that shot in jpeg.

I went to NY this week and shot for the first time in RAW. It was my first time and I was a little upset because my pictures didnt look good at all. That was until I started working on them in Lightroom. I mean this is like an act of god! I can make my night pictures of Time Square almost look as if it was taken in plain daylight and really give them that magasine look.

Any RAW fan here that want to share some tips on post-processing?
 
Just to explain, best to my knowledge (since I rarely use RAW), RAW isn't a image 'format' per se.

It is the raw data off the sensor. The light 'information' captured per pixel. This is not a coherent image as understood by common computer software. Each pixel represents a certain colour, for example (dependent on the sensor, but most common is a Bayer-filter layout where half the pixels are green, 1/4 red, and 1/4 blue).

To interpret this data as a common image file, say JPEG, it requires a conversion. This conversion, when shooting JPEG, is done in camera, to whatever the processor deems is appropriate with whatever settings the camera software is programmed for - some cameras allow user adjustments.

Inherently, the conversion process throws away a lot of the data that is actually captured - since cameras do not know what you are shooting it can only guess at how best to convert the data, but typically dynamic range is lost, and colour space be compressed.

When you shoot RAW, you do the conversion later. You have more control over what is thrown out and what is kept, and over what format and colour space you want. Because you do edits in exposure, contrast, levels, sharpness and so on BEFORE the conversion output takes place, you are working with the full data range as opposed to just editing final RGB pixels of a JPEG.

That is why RAW initially looks 'worse' - it has not been processed, only the default conversion is being displayed by whatever conversion software you are using.
*note: correct exposure is just as important as it ever was. It's true RAW can give you more headroom to shift things, but it won't do miracles. Overexposure is still over exposre - you can't recover data you simply never captured/ RAW is simply data that hasn't been converted to an image file*

This means the conversion software you use is important. I understand the converters differ from company to company, and they can have different effects on different camera models. For example, the new Canon 50D, when converted by Adobe Camera RAW can have increased noise than when converted with Canon's own DPP <- just reading around - I don't know fully myself.

So do I have it about right?
 
I shoot in RAW for everything now with my 40D. There's just so much more you can do in post processing if you keep the RAW files. Heck, I don't even keep the JPEGs anymore, I typically delete them and just export new ones from the RAW files for the ones I like.
 
tons of headroom. before/after.

IMG_8077-2.jpg


IMG_8077.jpg
 
THis question was just asked in the photo thread, so I am pasting my response from that, essentially the same as the one above:

Because, all of the toning that you will find in that jpeg are just settings applied to the RAW data. The only RAW converters out there that will read a camera's settings and apply them to RAW are those by the manufacturer. A third party program like Elements can only read, at best, the set white balance, and will default to giving you the unprocessed (lifeless in most cases, as no tonal adjustments have been made at all) image. All the internal camera settings for saturation, contrast, color mode are tossed out.

A RAW file is, more or less, a raw data dump from your sensor. If you are just shooting JPEG, the camera will take your camera's image settings and apply them to the RAW data, and poop out a jpeg image. If you are capturing RAW, those settings are saved as just that, settings, not applied to the actual image data. These settings are very proprietary, and can only be read by the camera maker's RAW processor. Third party products cannot read that data, so are left with the original, extremely flat RAW data, which needs to be processed.

Myself? I use Nikon Capture NX2 for my conversions, which does keep these settings.
 
this thread makes me want to get a DSLR. i've been thinking about it for a couple weeks now, especially as i've finally gotten around to organizing my 14,000 digital pictures from 2002-now. tags, etc...and for some of the places i've been, oh how i've longed for a true camera and the ability to post-process well.

maybe one of these days. until then, enjoy your RAW
 
kkaabboomm said:
this thread makes me want to get a DSLR. i've been thinking about it for a couple weeks now, especially as i've finally gotten around to organizing my 14,000 digital pictures from 2002-now. tags, etc...and for some of the places i've been, oh how i've longed for a true camera and the ability to post-process well.

maybe one of these days. until then, enjoy your RAW

You don't need a DSLR to shoot in RAW though.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting RAW. Lightroom is lovely; but, I have to admit that Nikon's ultra-buggy-craptacular Capture NX2 is the best option for native .nef files. Sure it crashes every few minutes and the interface sucks; but, the results you can pull out of it are spectacular. Capture NX2, with a bit of Lightroom for quick review/cataloging, and a Photoshop chaser is the best way to get results.

BTW giga - good demo of the power of RAW; but, you may be better suited to expose your picture the other direction (expose to the right vs the left). Usually you can pull back the highlights better than recover the shadow details (due to noise). My D700 is capable of pseudo-HDR out of a single .nef.
 
Instigator said:
You don't need a DSLR to shoot in RAW though.

Well it helps. If you're after every ounce of quality. Few P&S cameras allow recording the RAW files.

Edit: So is my concept of RAW correct?
 
JediMasterMatt said:
Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting RAW. Lightroom is lovely; but, I have to admit that Nikon's ultra-buggy-craptacular Capture NX2 is the best option for native .nef files. Sure it crashes every few minutes and the interface sucks; but, the results you can pull out of it are spectacular. Capture NX2, with a bit of Lightroom for quick review/cataloging, and a Photoshop chaser is the best way to get results.

BTW giga - good demo of the power of RAW; but, you may be better suited to expose your picture the other direction (expose to the right vs the left). Usually you can pull back the highlights better than recover the shadow details (due to noise). My D700 is capable of pseudo-HDR out of a single .nef.
it was just a test i took a while ago to show some people what you can do with raw. it was exposed for the sky. i just did a wb correction and recovery in LR.
 
JediMasterMatt said:
Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting RAW. Lightroom is lovely; but, I have to admit that Nikon's ultra-buggy-craptacular Capture NX2 is the best option for native .nef files. Sure it crashes every few minutes and the interface sucks; but, the results you can pull out of it are spectacular. Capture NX2, with a bit of Lightroom for quick review/cataloging, and a Photoshop chaser is the best way to get results.

Do you use NX on Windows? I use it in OSX and havn't had any crashing issues. (It does eat huge chuncks of ram, though). On OSX i use Photo Mechanic for my intake and organization, and think its the best way to go end to end with NEF using NX as the processor.

NX is so rad as its contracted out to Nik Software, who are phenomenal. You can do stuff in NX in minute that would take you half and hour in photoshop. Also, Nik has a skew of Color Efex Pro that works inside of NX, which can use the same masking tools as regular filters. Also, I like that I can reprocess my D200 files using the newer picture control engine, which is a lot better than the frankly weird engine the d200 uses internall.

SOOO amazing.

(also, I really like the interface for what you're doing with the photos, took a long while to get to that point though)
 
Yeah I only shoot RAW now... Too bad 1 RAW file on my camera takes a up 18MB of space.. I had to buy a 32GB CF card.

I like to turn off basically all processing done by the camera so I can control it myself on the computer.
 
Is there any tricks you need to learn to post process RAWs? Only reason I havent shot in RAW is because I don't think I'd be post processing effectively to make use of it...but I havent tried it.
 
Wario64 said:
Is there any tricks you need to learn to post process RAWs? Only reason I havent shot in RAW is because I don't think I'd be post processing effectively to make use of it...but I havent tried it.

I am in the same boat.

Well that an storage space - but that is generally a weak argument. I think software like Aperture is laid out so you start with the sliders at the top.

Also, I guess, you need to understand levels, curves and histograms, which I don't.
 
StopMakingSense said:
THis question was just asked in the photo thread, so I am pasting my response from that, essentially the same as the one above:

Because, all of the toning that you will find in that jpeg are just settings applied to the RAW data. The only RAW converters out there that will read a camera's settings and apply them to RAW are those by the manufacturer. A third party program like Elements can only read, at best, the set white balance, and will default to giving you the unprocessed (lifeless in most cases, as no tonal adjustments have been made at all) image. All the internal camera settings for saturation, contrast, color mode are tossed out.

A RAW file is, more or less, a raw data dump from your sensor. If you are just shooting JPEG, the camera will take your camera's image settings and apply them to the RAW data, and poop out a jpeg image. If you are capturing RAW, those settings are saved as just that, settings, not applied to the actual image data. These settings are very proprietary, and can only be read by the camera maker's RAW processor. Third party products cannot read that data, so are left with the original, extremely flat RAW data, which needs to be processed.

Myself? I use Nikon Capture NX2 for my conversions, which does keep these settings.
Thank you, i was the one that asked in the mega thread. Your post, this article I found since no one had responded, were really helpful.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/RAW-file-format.htm

I think i'm going to try out Raw and try to learn to edit more. Just tried the demo of Lightroom, pretty impressive stuff.
 
RAW processing tips via Lightroom 2/Photoshop CS4 Camera RAW plugin

I like to start off with a global adjustment to all my shots via my personal saved presets.

It goes something like:

recovery +10
fill light +10
vibrance +50
sharpening +60
masking +40 (if it's a portrait)
Luminance noise reduction +10
Chroma noise reduction +25
defringe: all edges
profile: Adobe Standard Beta (or maybe Camera Portrait Beta if it's a portrait)

If I need to do white balancing and can do it quickly to a large amount of images at once, I do that.

Then I select all and render 1:1 previews.

This will make Lightroom run a little snappier whenever you zoom in 100%

Now, I go to the Library module and go through all the photos to sort the keepers.

I set the filter to only show flagged and un-flagged.

I scroll through the photos with the arrow keys.

I press "P" to flag a photo I want to keep, and "X" to reject a photo I KNOW I don't want.

If capslock is enabled, pressing p, u, or x will auto scroll to the next photo.

Due to the filter, I only see picks and non-picks. Rejected photos disappear(but are not deleted).

After selecting my keepers, I set the filter to only show me the flagged photos. Then I go through them in the develop module to make any further adjustments if needed.

After I'm done, I can select all the rejected ones and delete them once I know I definitely want to throw them away. I usually hang on to the non-flagged photos just in case, bit if there's way too many, I'll delete some or all.

Random Develop tips:

Pay attention to the histogram to see where you are clipping whites and blacks. Remember that the "exposure" slider sets the white point and "blacks" slider sets the black point. Press "j" to quickly show you on the photo where clipping occurs.

The RGB histogram is also handy to see color clipping. I find this most useful to see where the blue in my sky is clipping. If you overexpose the sky too much, it'll turn a different shade of blue than it's supposed to be. That's due to the blue channel of the sky clipping to white and not leaving enough color information.

Fill light is great for filling in the shadows, but don't overdo it, or the photo looks terrible. Try the gradient tool or the brush tool and paint in some positive exposure.

Low contrast due to lens flare can me remedied somewhat by upping the black slider.

Contrast slider is good for quick fixes, but use the tone curve for more finer adjustments. Sometimes you only need to adjust one area of the curve to make a picture look its best.

The clarity slider is very useful to adjust midtone contrast and will most likely make your pictures look better. Don't overdo it, though. Also, try not to increase clarity for portraits. It's not flattering to see the imperfections on faces made more obvious. I like to do -10 or so clarity on portraits of girls. Negative clarity can also be used for a hazy look and a pseudo-soft focus effect.

Vibrance is awesome.

Saturation is a little more heavy tool. Too much and you'll make skintones and grass radioactive. I usually don't touch it too much, especially if there's people in the shot.

Bring down the luminosity for blue a tad to make the sky more dramatic.

Bring up the luminosity for orange to make people have a slightly lighter complexion.

Adjust the yellow hue to the green side to make dead yellow plants a little more alive.

Press 'V' for a quick grayscale conversion. Use the sliders to adjust the various brightnesses of each color, just as you would do in the channel mixer adjustment in Photoshop.

use split toning to add some color to sunsets.

Also, use split toning to make a nice sepia or other two tone look out of a black and white conversion.

Vignetting adds a nice artsy touch. I never feel the need to use this as an actual correction tool.

I usually use the standard beta or portrait profiles depending on what I'm doing.

The dust spot removal tool is great to remove actual dust spots, but I also use it a lot to remove pimples and other blemishes.
 
Neodiablo22 said:
You should make an HDR of that picture using your raw file. It will look awesome.

I actually dislike the way HDR is so commonly thrown around. Especially the ones where tehy create this really crappy halo at the edges of objects.
 
I was in the same boat as Wario64 & mrkgoo until relatively recently-I only did jpegs because every time I fired up ACR or CaptureOne I'd be like "how i shot gun?". I didn't play with RAW much until I really became frustrated post-processing some jpegs I took just before last year's Dragon Con and I thought, "F it. I'm going to shoot RAW at the con and force myself to learn how to post-process." And I did. Most of my cosplay shots were underexposed by at least 1 f-stop, even for a Pentax. The only reason they even came out decent-looking was that I pulled them back out in ACR (I gave up on CaptureOne-I found it too arcane to grasp), and it took me weeks of twiddling to even do that since I was running the sliders back-and-forth, seeing what effect they had on the shot. But I found that I ended up with better shots for less work overall, as it was indeed easier to fix a "goofed" shot-color correction and exposure problems became much more manageable, indeed. Nowadays I only shoot in RAW.
 
mrkgoo said:
That is why RAW initially looks 'worse' - it has not been processed, only the default conversion is being displayed by whatever conversion software you are using.

I think when some people hear this they might worry less about getting a proper exposure.

This is not true. You still need to get the best exposure if you want the best photograph. Highlights can be blown and shadows can be pitch black with no detail and Lightroom won't be able to help you.
 
Futureman said:
I think when some people hear this they might worry less about getting a proper exposure.

This is not true. You still need to get the best exposure if you want the best photograph. Highlights can be blown and shadows can be pitch black with no detail and Lightroom won't be able to help you.

You are absolutely right of course - that is not what I intended! When I mean 'unprocessed' I mean that the data hasn't been processed into an image file. Messing about with processing yourself gives you more headroom to shift things, but it won't do miracles. Overexposed is overexposed and vice versa. You can't recover data you never captured.

But other than that am I seeing RAW in my mind's eye more or less correct?

And to reitrate with what Grimlock said, I kind of want to get things right by learning about camera stuff before the post processing. I guess it's all part of it, but I don't want to get in the habit of using RAW as a safety net, afterall, this is not critical work I'm doing. <- realises this might just be a lame excuse to not shoot RAW.
 
Just to make sure that everyone's on the same page here...

When shooting RAW, all the picture styles that you can set in your camera: contrast, saturation, tone curve, landscape mode, portrait mode, etc. don't matter at all when using third party software. All those settings are proprietary and undecipherable to anything but Canon or Nikon's own RAW processing software. The only thing a third party application like Lightroom can see is the white balance. That's it.

That's why a RAW file usually looks so bland when first opened. All those settings you applied in camera to get it to look the way you want have just been thrown out the window.

I really wish Canon and Nikon would release plugins for Lightroom that would allow it to see the proprietary settings.

mrkgoo said:
Rentahamster, you are a wonderful human being.
:D
 
Rentahamster said:
All those settings are proprietary and undecipherable to anything but Canon or Nikon's own RAW processing software. The only thing a third party application like Lightroom can see is the white balance. That's it.

I thought it was like a lens. There's a proprietary AF algorithm that Canon and Nikon use, but 3rd party manufacturers can still release an AF lens that will work on the bodies.

Maybe I'm wrong though? Would I really see a huge return if I stopped only using Lightroom to edit my RAW files and instead used Canon's?
 
Rentahamster said:
RAW processing tips via Lightroom 2/Photoshop CS4 Camera RAW plugin

I like to start off with a global adjustment to all my shots via my personal saved presets.

It goes something like:

recovery +10
fill light +10
vibrance +50
sharpening +60
masking +40 (if it's a portrait)
Luminance noise reduction +10
Chroma noise reduction +25
defringe: all edges
profile: Adobe Standard Beta (or maybe Camera Portrait Beta if it's a portrait)

If I need to do white balancing and can do it quickly to a large amount of images at once, I do that.

Then I select all and render 1:1 previews.

This will make Lightroom run a little snappier whenever you zoom in 100%

Now, I go to the Library module and go through all the photos to sort the keepers.

I set the filter to only show flagged and un-flagged.

I scroll through the photos with the arrow keys.

I press "P" to flag a photo I want to keep, and "X" to reject a photo I KNOW I don't want.

If capslock is enabled, pressing p, u, or x will auto scroll to the next photo.

Due to the filter, I only see picks and non-picks. Rejected photos disappear(but are not deleted).

After selecting my keepers, I set the filter to only show me the flagged photos. Then I go through them in the develop module to make any further adjustments if needed.

After I'm done, I can select all the rejected ones and delete them once I know I definitely want to throw them away. I usually hang on to the non-flagged photos just in case, bit if there's way too many, I'll delete some or all.

Random Develop tips:

Pay attention to the histogram to see where you are clipping whites and blacks. Remember that the "exposure" slider sets the white point and "blacks" slider sets the black point. Press "j" to quickly show you on the photo where clipping occurs.

The RGB histogram is also handy to see color clipping. I find this most useful to see where the blue in my sky is clipping. If you overexpose the sky too much, it'll turn a different shade of blue than it's supposed to be. That's due to the blue channel of the sky clipping to white and not leaving enough color information.

Fill light is great for filling in the shadows, but don't overdo it, or the photo looks terrible. Try the gradient tool or the brush tool and paint in some positive exposure.

Low contrast due to lens flare can me remedied somewhat by upping the black slider.

Contrast slider is good for quick fixes, but use the tone curve for more finer adjustments. Sometimes you only need to adjust one area of the curve to make a picture look its best.

The clarity slider is very useful to adjust midtone contrast and will most likely make your pictures look better. Don't overdo it, though. Also, try not to increase clarity for portraits. It's not flattering to see the imperfections on faces made more obvious. I like to do -10 or so clarity on portraits of girls. Negative clarity can also be used for a hazy look and a pseudo-soft focus effect.

Vibrance is awesome.

Saturation is a little more heavy tool. Too much and you'll make skintones and grass radioactive. I usually don't touch it too much, especially if there's people in the shot.

Bring down the luminosity for blue a tad to make the sky more dramatic.

Bring up the luminosity for orange to make people have a slightly lighter complexion.

Adjust the yellow hue to the green side to make dead yellow plants a little more alive.

Press 'V' for a quick grayscale conversion. Use the sliders to adjust the various brightnesses of each color, just as you would do in the channel mixer adjustment in Photoshop.

use split toning to add some color to sunsets.

Also, use split toning to make a nice sepia or other two tone look out of a black and white conversion.

Vignetting adds a nice artsy touch. I never feel the need to use this as an actual correction tool.

I usually use the standard beta or portrait profiles depending on what I'm doing.

The dust spot removal tool is great to remove actual dust spots, but I also use it a lot to remove pimples and other blemishes.
thanks +++
 
Futureman said:
I thought it was like a lens. There's a proprietary AF algorithm that Canon and Nikon use, but 3rd party manufacturers can still release an AF lens that will work on the bodies.

Maybe I'm wrong though? Would I really see a huge return if I stopped only using Lightroom to edit my RAW files and instead used Canon's?

Well, for one thing DPP actually interprets the picture style settings.

But the conversion tool is inherently different. I was reading someone's experience with DPP vs. Adobe RAW that was causing 50D files to have more noise when using Adobe. Of course, they may have been mistaken, but the difference was pretty drastic.
edit: I'll see if I can dig it up

here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=648801&highlight=50D+raw+noise

I'm not sure what happened in the end, and it's unique to the 50D, I believe, but it goes to show that the conversion software aren't necessarily equal.
 
Futureman said:
I thought it was like a lens. There's a proprietary AF algorithm that Canon and Nikon use, but 3rd party manufacturers can still release an AF lens that will work on the bodies.

Maybe I'm wrong though? Would I really see a huge return if I stopped only using Lightroom to edit my RAW files and instead used Canon's?
Sorta, in the sense that third party software can translate the RAW data into an image (provided you have the most recent updates that coincide with the camera model). White balance metadata is preserved, but everything else is not.

The only thing first party software does "better" is that it recognizes the settings you used in camera, and applies it to your RAW file. Say you are shooting and have the camera set to Standard mode with +2 contrast and +1 saturation - using first party software, those settings will already be set for you, and you will see on your screen an image that looks like the JPEG that the camera would have spit out had you been shooting in JPEG.

In Lightroom or other third party software, those contrast, saturation, etc settings are not applied. You gotta input all that yourself. This is why my workflow involves a global adjustment to nudge the photos in the general direction I want, then a finetuning inspection to individual photos to taste.

To give another example, Nikon's "Active D-Lighting" (similar to Canon's highlight priority) is a feature found on the newest models that will preserve highlights and boost shadows. Nikon's NX2 software can interpret this metadata from the RAW file and will apply it to your image. Lightroom has no idea what the hell "Active D-Lighting" is and will not even recognize it.

Using the "fill light" and the "recover" sliders in Lightroom will do the same thing, though. You just have to move the sliders yourself from the default position.

As for me, I don't like using Canon or Nikon's software because I think they are slow and Lightroom is so much better anyway. First party software may save me time by me not having to manually set the sliders myself, but I would waste time overall because of how slow they run compared to Lightroom. I would also miss out on Lightroom's awesome cataloging features and its integration with Photoshop.

One more thing - Since version 2.2 of Lightroom, Adobe created different camera profiles to sort of replicate the camera styles of Nikon and Canon. It's the last panel in the develop module. Play around and see if any of them please you.


Also - for those using Lightroom or Adobe Camera RAW, copying and pasting develop settings and using the "sync" function to synchronize develop settings across multiple pictures saves a lot of time. For any given bunch of photos taken in the same lighting conditions and similar exposure values, edit the first one to how you like it, and sync those settings to the rest of the photos in the bunch.
 
Oh, yeah a few more tips that may or may not improve your speed when working in Lightroom.

You can click and drag in the historgram to change blacks, fill light, exposure, or recovery, depending on where in the histogram you click and drag.

You can also hover your mouse over a certain area of the histogram and use the up and down arrow keys to make small adjustments. Use shift+up or down to make larger adjustments.

You can hover your mouse over any slider and use the up or down arrow keys to make small adjustments and shift+up or down to make larger adjustments.

Mouse wheel will enlarge or shrink the brush size.

Double clicking a slider's name will revert it back to the default setting.

Holding down alt (option on the mac) while clicking or sliding certain things will give you a secondary effect. For example, zoom to 100%, hold down alt, then adjust the sharpening sliders.

When using a tool, holding down spacebar will temporarily give you access to the hand tool, just like in Photoshop.
 
rentahmster: have you had experience with Aperture? That would probably be the software I lean towards, if an d when I get to shooting raw.

At the moment, iPhoto is actually a pretty competent RAW editor (the newest one handles RAW better),but I think you can only output adobeRGB, which I find a bit annoying, since I pretty much just post images online.
 
mrkgoo said:
Well, for one thing DPP actually interprets the picture style settings.

But the conversion tool is inherently different. I was reading someone's experience with DPP vs. Adobe RAW that was causing 50D files to have more noise when using Adobe. Of course, they may have been mistaken, but the difference was pretty drastic.
edit: I'll see if I can dig it up

here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=648801&highlight=50D+raw+noise

I'm not sure what happened in the end, and it's unique to the 50D, I believe, but it goes to show that the conversion software aren't necessarily equal.

Yeah 50D and Adobe RAW doesn't work well at all. Noise is terrible.

Canons RAW editor is a pain to use, slow, clunky, etc... It does work properly though. I don't shoot RAW with the 50D ever because of these things.
 
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