Baroquemantic
Member
Nothing wrong with that, my dude. Different strokes I love ridiculous stuff like that, so it was right up my alley.
I thought it was awesome how they made her K.I.T.T., given her name and all.
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Realpic Gaf |OT| January 2016 edition [Shocking revelation post #11890]
- Thread starter Lucian Cat
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I thought it was awesome how they made her K.I.T.T., given her name and all.
Just to play devil's advocate, why is this viewed as pandering or inappropriate while most people on Neogaf seem to consider Bayonetta to be just fine? They both are characters who are designed to be owning and utilizing their sexuality. I see some commonality between them.
For the record, I didn't particularly like Catwoman (or much of anything) in the Arkham games, and I really don't have a strong opinion on Bayonetta.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Good luck, LC.
The Arkham series seems like it was made for hardcore comic geeks and the normal video game population just happened to stumble upon it.
The Arkham series seems like it was made for hardcore comic geeks and the normal video game population just happened to stumble upon it.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
welp. double post.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I have no idea what the go is with Bayonetta, I don't go in those threads.
With Catwoman they have many variations and iterations of the character to draw upon, but chose to do that kind of thing in particular. One of her counter attacks is her grabbing and kissing the thug, and her voice direction seems to have been " maximum suggestiveness". It's a shame they went in that direction.
Video games still in many ways feels kind of like a man child medium to me -- Power fantasies, pandery female designs, etc. I think things are moving in the right direction though.
Every time I hear any variant of the phrase "feel like a badass" I want to just attack something. Maybe kill another stink bug.
Thin ice is being treaded upon.
liliththepale
Banned
Is Little Blue a badass?
Not in the least.
edit: well, I guess there's any number of reasons someone might project that thought onto a character, but she's not designed in any way as a superhero. She's meek; confused.
You and me both.
Yeah, I think the only design I liked from those games was Scarecrow in Arkham Asylum. Otherwise... eww.
And it's not just the Sarkeesian thread, although is what brought it up. It's like... people are talking about one of my favorite fictional characters ever and I want to talk about her too but then I realize that other people have a vastly different interpretation and I'm like. Oh.
I do think a female character can be complex or enjoyable and super sexualized. For a lot of people that character is Bayonetta (but I can't comment not ever playing the games.) The thing is Selina has never been that character for me, and I honestly think she's more interesting without it considering there is already that archetype in the Batman universe. (Poison Ivy).I think we're pretty much on the same page, right down to not liking the Nolan films.
I think there's an audience for more complex female characters, and female characters who aren't noted only for their sexuality. The Last of Us was a game starring an LGBT 14 year old girl and it was hugely successful! Content creators are simply -- frequently -- behind the curve. Or just suck.
Incidentally, the art design in the Arkham games particularly as it relates to the characters is really horrible IMO.
I can't speak with too much nuance on the comic side of things because I haven't read a lot of western style superhero comics, but I did watch Batman TAS extensively growing up. Most people I knew did. It was a memorable show.
Have a safe flight!
I don't even Selina and Bayonetta think of their sexuality at the same level. I think maybe in the same way of owning it, but I think Bayonetta is far more flashier when Selina is more concerned with being intimidating than sexy.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I mean, that's in many ways what the growing pain the industry has been going through has been. Thankfully, the games industry for the most part is seeing the sense in catering to not just male customers anymore. I think it's different from comics because, while comics started as an ipso facto male power hobby, games started with Pong.
Haha, funny thing. I didn't even see your post before I posted mine so it was just a wild coincidence, not an attempt to vex you!
(But I'm sure I can come up with some of those too, if you want...)
For me it's almost never felt like the games were made exclusively or even primarily for that crowd. There's a lot of neat trivia and cameos, but the characters themselves are kind of caricatures.
Then again, my Batman opinions and interpretations run contrary to a lot of other people's. So maybe it was made for the non-Pau hardcore Batman comic geeks.
liliththepale
Banned
For what it's worth, I think one of the strengths of the Batman IP is that there are so many different interpretations of characters. For example, my mom only likes Adam West era Batman, and doesn't want any of the darker material. So I think it's pretty much inescapable that a lot of people who "like Batman" are going to like a different version than you do. Like I think The Killing Joke is extremely overrated, but that's okay because I have other Batman material to enjoy.
Yeah, my bad. I went in way too much on that one.
Yeah, my bad. I went in way too much on that one.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Yeah pretty much every character shows up, does a stereotypical thing their character does then exits stage left. Freeze appeared in 3 games and every time he's doing the exact same shtick. Riddler same. Penguin, two face etc are less annoying because they don't have singular character drives like that and you can just tell a story about a gang war or whatever instead.
Professor Beef
Banned
I like Justice League Batman where they kept teasing him and Wonder Woman.
My favorite Robin is also the kid version that showed up in the later seasons of Batman TAS.
My favorite Robin is also the kid version that showed up in the later seasons of Batman TAS.
I may not have explained myself completely. Powerful characters or confident characters don't bother me.. But the game designer "let's make the player feel like a badass" stuff bothers me, particularly when they talk about it. Whenever I hear someone giving an interview about a game (or reviewing a game, or whatever) and say "xyz just really makes you feel like a badass!" I want to FUCKING STRANGIKGElrshgjdsalkhgjds. Maybe it's an irrational pet peeve, but it highlights to me what's so annoying about certain areas of thought in game design.
I gotcha. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I kinda thought Catwoman was always portrayed as a seductress. Obviously there's more than that, and in TAS (going from memory here) we saw some vulnerability and complexity.
I don't always know what's "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the sexualization of women in media. My general sense is that the context is what's important, and how she relates to the story and the other characters -- But sometimes I'm not exactly sure what to think. Bayonetta is one of those times.
The way I look at it things generally is by looking at the world through my nieces' eyes. They're gamers, especially the 8 year old, and I know for sure she'll be playing games for years to come. I see myself at that age when I look at her. We bond over games.
I try to imagine what things will look like from her perspective -- I try to imagine how she'll internalize these things. Who will her role models be? Who will her favorite characters be? Who will she want to be? What's cool to her? What might make her feel bad about herself?
That's interesting - BTAS and DCAU woman (aside from when they're deliberately drawn to be 'non-standard'), since they stem mostly from Bruce Timm's design, all hugely echo cheesecake models. Obviously his designs were softened for TV, but they all still strike me as really sexualised especially compared to other animated depictions. Admitedly not hyper-sexualised the way a lot of the comic adaptions can be depending on artist, but they're still very... well, hot.
Of course, the DCAU was just really good storytelling as a whole and I think that really helped pull attention away from the cheesecake of most designs.
Definitely agree that it's a strength of the IP. My problem's that I was (still am?) overly invested in it. At one point it was like one of the most important things in my life because I was a loser.
So I think it's natural that I want to get more media with my interpretation of the character and want to connect with people who think of it in the same way. I just gotta let it go. And I agree that The Killing Joke is extremely overrated.
PirateKing
Junior Member
Read Watchmen.
liliththepale
Banned
Well some of it's framing, right? Because Catwoman isn't the star of Catwoman (most of the time...), she's a Batman character. She's a not-Batman. She's a love interest and a foil. Which is finethere are appropriate ways to do thatbut having Ms. Kyle wag her ass in the screen is not the right way.
Bayonetta, meanwhile, is her own franchise. Everything in the Bayonetta franchise is about making more of Bayonetta.
Apologies for grossly oversimplifying this, but I think you get the gist.
One of my favorite things about JL Batman is how they let him use sexuality as a weapon in a way usually reserved for only female characters.I like Justice League Batman where they kept teasing him and Wonder Woman.
My favorite Robin is also the kid version that showed up in the later seasons of Batman TAS.
Bruce/Selina is my OTP (sorry) but I like the flirting between Diana and Bruce.
She is a seductress in different interpretations but usually aimed at Bruce because she actually likes him. I think in regards to everyone else (especially criminals) she's more concerned with being intimidating. But I'm also basing this primarily on the Brubaker comic run I mentioned earlier.
Oh, they are definitely cheesecake-y but they never seemed more sexualized than other cartoons at the time and certainly nothing compared to their comic counterparts.
I'd say the majority of it comes from the silhouette instead of ridiculous costumes.ThoseDeafMutes
Member
liliththepale
Banned
I think the term you're looking for is canon-ball.
Professor Beef
Banned
The episode where they finally capture Batman and he goes and seduces Cheetah and outright tricks everyone else was hilarious.
I would probably need a refresher on him and Selina, but I do remember loving their interactions before JL started up. I mainly just like how WW was portrayed, especially around Flash. She was like a big sister.
It works very well.
In the Robert Downey Jr. movies Adler was pretty much the best movie Selina we've had.
I have this all ready in my head. Actually, when I was younger I would tell my sister night time stories to help her sleep and they would be from my cherry-picked Batman canon.
I'm admittedly not much of a feminist scholar or anything, but I've always thought it's kind of a question of 'who is it for'. When Catwoman is sexy... it's hard to tell who it's for. Very often it's the camera.
When Bayo is sexy... well, I think there's always an implication that she's sexy primarily because she's Bayo. She owns that shit. There's some articles out there about the voyeur in games or media or whatever. Bayo you might call more an Exhibitionist game than a Voyeur game. It's more to do with Burlesque than anything else, I think. Obviously, by the nature of being a designed character, there is an element of 'Well, a super sexy character was made, so all elements of her are there to be consumed'. But I don't know if you can always analyse fiction solely under that lense.
Of course, to what extent that sort of stuff is right or wrong is up to the individual. But I think that might be a powerful difference.
You guys are funny.
Indeed. That said, we do play as Catwoman quite a bit in the middle Arkham game and see a section of the story from her perspective -- But I do get what you mean. The Bayonetta question is purely academic for me, because I don't really like the game. I think it's kind of tacky/gaudy.
Good call.
Indeed. That said, we do play as Catwoman quite a bit in the middle Arkham game and see a section of the story from her perspective -- But I do get what you mean. The Bayonetta question is purely academic for me, because I don't really like the game. I think it's kind of tacky/gaudy.
Good call.
Yes, exactly. Kevin Conroy sells it. And I've had him whisper seductively in my ear before, so I know what I'm talking about.
BTAS doesn't have too much on Selina and Bruce since it evenly spreads the love between her, Talia, and Barbara (eww). I like the relationship in the comics (pre-nu52) a lot better. It works better when they know each other's identity and help each other out. She's also still more on the villain/anti-hero side in the show than on the hero side as she is (well was) in the comics.
I've been told to expand my DC experience from "Arkham Asylum, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, 8% of TAS, and Man of Steel" to "Arkham Asylum, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, 8% of TAS, Man of Steel, and Watchmen".
So I've learned a lot tonight.
PirateKing
Junior Member
The only version of of Batman I like so far has been All Star Batman & Robin only because he's nuts. Comic turns to shit half way through though.
Is it good? Haven't got around it. I'm just going through Deadpool at the moment.
Is it good? Haven't got around it. I'm just going through Deadpool at the moment.
Oh man, I'd have to go through all of the issues because there are some really tiny moments in otherwise whatever stories that I absolutely love.
Anything that emphasizes Bruce as a dad and his kids will be in. That's kind of the main them of Batman for me. Bruce is someone trying to 1) save people and 2) deal with his parental trauma by becoming a parent himself.
Give me a sec and I'll post a somewhat slimmer list from memory.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Yeah p. Good
The movie is in the top 20 for me, as it hits a perfect tone between love letter and satire.
EDIT
You are wrong and should be ashamed for having an opinion that is so clearly wrong.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yes, exactly. Kevin Conroy sells it. And I've had him whisper seductively in my ear before, so I know what I'm talking about.
BTAS doesn't have too much on Selina and Bruce since it evenly spreads the love between her, Talia, and Barbara (eww). I like the relationship in the comics (pre-nu52) a lot better. It works better when they know each other's identity and help each other out. She's also still more on the villain/anti-hero side in the show than on the hero side as she is (well was) in the comics.
Him and Barbara? Eeeeeesh.
liliththepale
Banned
I've been told to expand my DC experience from "Arkham Asylum, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, 8% of TAS, and Man of Steel" to "Arkham Asylum, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, 8% of TAS, Man of Steel, and Watchmen".
So I've learned a lot tonight.
When you've been exposed to so little, it's hard to tell if you're avoiding DC material because you don't like or because you don't know any better. If it's the former, there aren't a lot of properties that will change your mind. For the latter, there are hundreds if not thousands of places you could start.
Prophet Steve
Member
To chime in. Bayonetta as a character presents herself that way. Acting as an entertainer to the audience, being aware of the camera as it may. Like is the case in Devil May Cry.
Catwoman in the games is not really like that. Putting a camera on her ass make it a matter of sexualization vs someone presenting her sexuality.
I am not saying that Catwoman does not use her sexuality, but it does not make sense for her as a character in that context.
Obviously there is not really a consensus with Bayonetta as people are very polarized about this.
It's just been a lack of compulsion to keep going, is all. Coupled with (and this is a big one) zero exposure to it growing up. (Same with all comic stuff, actually.)
I've been pretty tepid about what I've seen, though, in fairness... but there's so much out there that I don't doubt there's plenty I'd be warmer toward. Although the fact that there are "hundreds if not thousands of places" to start is pretty daunting!
My favorite superhero cartoons growing up were probably,
Spiderman and X-Men. Along with Batman.
Spiderman and X-Men. Along with Batman.
Heck yeah JB! I briefly played some Dark Souls 2 this weekend, got to the 3 assholes, forgot their names. I need to summon.
Take off that badge and put it on that table and then speak to me like that again. See if you make it to that period. You won't make it to the period.
I'm a badass
Ruin Sentinels, huh? I actually didn't have a lot of trouble with them (which surprised me).
Probably the only thing in the DCAU I absolutely hate, although it gets some good play in Batman Beyond (though honestly Old Bruce's life is a fucking shambles in the DCAU)
*Brawl breaks out*
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