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[Slavik81]

What surprises me most about this whole thing is that APB had that much money spent on it. I'd always been given the impression that it was a low-budget title, at least as relative to the other recent MMOs. Where did the money go?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Selffunded? Goddamn

Well, with VC and external investors, of course... but I mean that they weren't working on it for a publisher, they were doing it themselves.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

What surprises me most about this whole thing is that APB had that much money spent on it. I'd always been given the impression that it was a low-budget title, at least as relative to the other recent MMOs. Where did the money go?

I'm guessing it went into the insane amount of customization the title contained.

 

[Trick_GSF]

Man, what a giant waste of time and money APB was. For all involved.

Hope everyone lands on their feet.

 

[Slayven]

Somebody should do a book on the top 10 greatest fuckups in game development. I would read the hell out of that book.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Sad really. They should've dropped everything and made Crackdown 2 when Microsoft came running.

 

[MassiveAttack]

I'm guessing it went into the insane amount of customization the title contained.

More like the insane number of staff they hired. Covering salaries, benefits and bonuses for 300 employees is ridiculously expensive. They burned through just over $100M in 5 years. There are companies that have done far worse, however.

Brash Entertainment burned through $150M in 18 months. :lol

Spoiler

no laughing matter really

 

[Shiggy]

More like the insane number of staff they hired. Covering salaries, benefits and bonuses for 300 employees is ridiculously expensive. They burned through just over $100M in 5 years. There are companies that have done far worse, however.

Brash Entertainment burned through $150M in 18 months. :lol

Spoiler

no laughing matter really

Don't remind me of Wayforward's cancelled Flash game GRRR

 

[charsace]

I'm guessing it went into the insane amount of customization the title contained.

If you say so. Lotro is f2p right now and has a bigger world with more to do.

 

[Slayven]

Who are these venture capitalist that just blindly hand out money with no oversight?

 

[JumpJeff84]

I haven't tried APB, but based on what I've seen (Giant Bomb QL, Gametrailers Video Review, various other gameplay videos, written descriptions) that game looked completely devoid of fun or style. I would have passed on it had it been a $ 40 retail game with no additional fees, but as an MMO it seemed crazy.

I hate to judge though- did anyone play it and love it? Or at least like it a lot?

 

[Imbarkus]

They had a Business Intelligence Manager position here in Boulder I had applied for. Felt I was just perfect for it (and already local) so I was really disheartened when the position disappeared a week later and I never got a chance to interview.

Guess it was all for the best for me. Feel bad for other industry folks who moved out to Colorado for them. Only other big devs here are NetDevil/Gazillion (Lego Universe) and Idol Minds (PAIN!).

Not a good state for this line of work. Best of luck to them.

 

[WarMacheen]

APB players should all get their money back for such a POS game. Seriously

Is it just going to be shut down?
Will the owners of the game still be able to play should they have the notion to do so?

 

[JumpJeff84]

Somebody should do a book on the top 10 greatest fuckups in game development. I would read the hell out of that book.

In no particular order....

Vanguard
APB
Duke Nukem Forever (Likely)
Daikatana

What else on the list? How many more MMOs?

 

[MassiveAttack]

In no particular order....

Vanguard
APB
Duke Nukem Forever (Likely)
Daikatana

What else on the list? How many more MMOs?

Tabula Rasa
This Is Vegas
WarDevil
Anything remotely related to Brash

 

[Slayven]

In no particular order....

Vanguard
APB
Duke Nukem Forever (Likely)
Daikatana

What else on the list? How many more MMOs?

Oh man, Vanguard. Reading about the game was more fun then playing it. Braid Mcquaid, The Vision, and the fanboys, it was a rollercoaster and a half.

 

[DrFunk]

In no particular order....

Vanguard
APB
Duke Nukem Forever (Likely)
Daikatana

What else on the list? How many more MMOs?

Battlecruiser 3000AD

 

[Magnus]

Who?

 

[Radogol]

Duke Nukem Forever (Likely)?

Likely? Regardless of how the game turns out, it's already a fuck-up.

 

[JumpJeff84]

Likely? Regardless of how the game turns out, it's already a fuck-up.

Maybe not for Gearbox. Who knows what they paid for it? As far as they're concerned, it may be profitable for them.

I agree though, I'd love to read about what really happened with this game.

 

[dream]

Derek Smart
Derek Smart
Derek Smart

 

[poppabk]

Likely? Regardless of how the game turns out, it's already a fuck-up.

Team Fortress 2 was also a fuck-up for 10 or so years until it finally released and totally redeemed itself.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Well, with VC and external investors, of course... but I mean that they weren't working on it for a publisher, they were doing it themselves.

What about when it was owned by Webzen? Internets says 2005-2008, I don't know how much money changed hands though, or how much they bought it back for!

 

[Radogol]

Team Fortress 2 was also a fuck-up for 10 or so years until it finally released and totally redeemed itself.

Team Fortress 2 didn't get Valve shut down and there was never any apparent danger of that happening.

 

[Femmeworth]

This is definitely for the best since it's pretty clear that the people in charge were extremely incompetent. Hopefully all of the employees land on their feet.

 

[Redbeard]

Microsoft destroys yet another studio. Quite sad to see this. I don't think they ever got over not being greenlit for Crackdown 2, it put their entire studio in disarray.

 

[Snuggles]

What a shame.

For what it's worth, Crackdown will always be proud member of my videogame library. At least they had an opportunity to make an awesome game together.

 

[Warm Machine]

Microsoft destroys yet another studio. Quite sad to see this. I don't think they ever got over not being greenlit for Crackdown 2, it put their entire studio in disarray.

This happens all the time in terms of wait and see to make a sequel. MS has nothing to do with how RTW does their business after their development contract with them has been fullfilled. Don't use MS as a scapegoat for RTW not knowing how to build a business.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

What went wrong during development?

How did the game end up as bad as it is?

 

[Kusagari]

Microsoft destroys yet another studio. Quite sad to see this. I don't think they ever got over not being greenlit for Crackdown 2, it put their entire studio in disarray.

:lol at blaming MS for RTW closing.

 

[charsace]

Microsoft destroys yet another studio. Quite sad to see this. I don't think they ever got over not being greenlit for Crackdown 2, it put their entire studio in disarray.

Yes, MS gave them 100 mill to piss away.

 

[Elixist]

APB is a $105 million example of why Rockstar won't be doing an MMO GTA game.

Totally disagree. I wanted a grand theft style MMO bad, but what we got from APB was bland and uninspired and not even a real MMO. Lame fetch and chase quests, *stand by the door to grab the package* followed by APB, someone is in your instance! No loot or fun missions is fail. You need to have a real world like WOW, not instanced to hell and back. You need to have missions and loot, and leveling up like " hey dude want to team up with me and take down that hotel ran by the yakuza?" *mission ensues with you and your buddy, shootin up a stylish Japanese motel pickin up some gray quality guns some green quality, maybe pick up some sushi for a rate of fire boost. Your buddy levels up halfway thru the mission "Ding!" "Grats" you say as he picks an armor and clip upgrade for his hard work, grinning sheepishly behind his computer monitor. Then when you make it to the penthouse theres a tattooed samurai bad ass waiting for you, he says " What the fuck are you doing in my motel? After what I got in the old safe eh?, Well... Come and get it!" No time for words as you and your buddy take cover behind pillars with gold dragons smothering them. The samurai picks up a sword off his desk that would make Nightmare blush, and the bullets are flying. An interesting fight commences with the samurai being quick and nimble, dashing forward for slash attacks and using a high jump up to the balconies of the room so he can drop some ninja toys on you that he has at his disposle. He takes some skill to kill, and drops a cool sword, along with some smoke bombs that let you disappear for a minute. You grab the money in his safe, head outside only to find a rival gang waiting for you. You drop smoke bombs which let you get to your car. Intense car chase ensues,(you need to get the money to a bank or safehouse or its up for grabs for anyone) with your buddy throwing smg bullets out the side window in some awesome random pvp moment."

This I would gladly pay a subscription for, not some game that like another said I wouldnt even pay 40 bones for with no subscription.

 

[Kafel]

MMO making looks like it's either bingo or bankrupt.

 

[Kittonwy]

What's the point of making an MMO at this stage in the industry's life? Seems more sense to make a smaller game that you can sell on Steam for $5-10. Eventually you make enough and one of those becomes a really big hit. Instead of this "so big it's bound to fail" type deal.


"Welcome to the real world."

The question should be why would one spend $100 mil on making what is essential GTA online and charge people a subscription fee when GTAIV already has online? Who would buy this game?

 

[Kittonwy]

Totally disagree. I wanted a grand theft style MMO bad, but what we got from APB was bland and uninspired and not even a real MMO. Lame fetch and chase quests, *stand by the door to grab the package* followed by APB, someone is in your instance! No loot or fun missions is fail. You need to have a real world like WOW, not instanced to hell and back. You need to have missions and loot, and leveling up like " hey dude want to team up with me and take down that hotel ran by the yakuza?" *mission ensues with you and your buddy, shootin up a stylish Japanese motel pickin up some gray quality guns some green quality, maybe pick up some sushi for a rate of fire boost. Your buddy levels up halfway thru the mission "Ding!" "Grats" you say as he picks an armor and clip upgrade for his hard work, grinning sheepishly behind his computer monitor. Then when you make it to the penthouse theres a tattooed samurai bad ass waiting for you, he says " What the fuck are you doing in my motel? After what I got in the old safe eh?, Well... Come and get it!" No time for words as you and your buddy take cover behind pillars with gold dragons smothering them. The samurai picks up a sword off his desk that would make Nightmare blush, and the bullets are flying. An interesting fight commences with the samurai being quick and nimble, dashing forward for slash attacks and using a high jump up to the balconies of the room so he can drop some ninja toys on you that he has at his disposle. He takes some skill to kill, and drops a cool sword, along with some smoke bombs that let you disappear for a minute. You grab the money in his safe, head outside only to find a rival gang waiting for you. You drop smoke bombs which let you get to your car. Intense car chase ensues,(you need to get the money to a bank or safehouse or its up for grabs for anyone) with your buddy throwing smg bullets out the side window in some awesome random pvp moment."

This I would gladly pay a subscription for, not some game that like another said I wouldnt even pay 40 bones for with no subscription.

Why would you pay a subscription for a fan fiction you can basically write yourself?

 

[flyinpiranha]

I honestly bury my head in my hands everytime I hear about a new MMO. How many MMOs have to launch and then quickly get shut down before companies start realizing "Hmm, maybe people don't really want more MMOs."?

I know right? Even in one of the GI's I have I was reading about "New MMO's at E3" and there were like 7 or 8 of them.

Do these things survive that long? Is there some MMO market that plays all of them like non subscriber games?

Just seems like you're setting yourself up for disaster.

 

[Elixist]

Why would you pay a subscription for a fan fiction you can basically write yourself?

My bad, went a bit over the top on that:lol I'm just passionate about a GTA style mmo and would love to play something like that. The multiplayer mods for San Andreas are way better than APB. I just hope this doesnt scare off other devs to try to make a "real" world one. Dont spend too much. Graphics dont have to be fuck awesome work on making the leveling and gunplay fun. Make the driving fun and the physics fun. Work on making the missions varied and interesting. Profit$$

 

[Vinci]

I know right? Even in one of the GI's I have I was reading about "New MMO's at E3" and there were like 7 or 8 of them.

Do these things survive that long? Is there some MMO market that plays all of them like non subscriber games?

Just seems like you're setting yourself up for disaster.

Well, most MMOs don't die this fast. Really, this is a pretty unique case. Most MMOs that see commercial release at least last a few months, and those that are able to grab a subscriber base large enough will make a really unreal amount of money. Personally, I love MMOs; I play quite a few of them off and on. 'Cause honestly, they save me a ton of money. YMMV.

 

[Kittonwy]

MMO making looks like it's either bingo or bankrupt.

Anytime you blow a $100 mil and five years making a shit game you're asking to go bankrupt, it has nothing to do with making an MMO, if you spend $100 mil on a game, you either have to sell a TON or be subscription-based so somehow you can recoup your investment and make a profit.

You can go bankrupt making a shit game for less, it really goes to show the need for a development studio to have someone in charge who has some business sense.

 

[flyinpiranha]

Well, most MMOs don't die this fast. Really, this is a pretty unique case. Most MMOs that see commercial release at least last a few months, and those that are able to grab a subscriber base large enough will make a really unreal amount of money. Personally, I love MMOs; I play quite a few of them off and on. 'Cause honestly, they save me a ton of money. YMMV.

Yeah, I guess I just don't follow this side of the industry as much and of course with gaming journalism all we hear about is "Subscribers drop 50%" and such. That still means 200,000 people might be playing and paying.

Just seems odd to me is all. I just don't see the market for C-team MMO's and such ... but again, I don't follow the news as much. Just keep my eye on the heavy hitters like SW:TOR and in the past Warhammer, CoH, Aion, and CO.

 

[chadderbox77]

Totally disagree. I wanted a grand theft style MMO bad, but what we got from APB was bland and uninspired and not even a real MMO. Lame fetch and chase quests, *stand by the door to grab the package* followed by APB, someone is in your instance! No loot or fun missions is fail. You need to have a real world like WOW, not instanced to hell and back. You need to have missions and loot, and leveling up like " hey dude want to team up with me and take down that hotel ran by the yakuza?" *mission ensues with you and your buddy, shootin up a stylish Japanese motel pickin up some gray quality guns some green quality, maybe pick up some sushi for a rate of fire boost. Your buddy levels up halfway thru the mission "Ding!" "Grats" you say as he picks an armor and clip upgrade for his hard work, grinning sheepishly behind his computer monitor. Then when you make it to the penthouse theres a tattooed samurai bad ass waiting for you, he says " What the fuck are you doing in my motel? After what I got in the old safe eh?, Well... Come and get it!" No time for words as you and your buddy take cover behind pillars with gold dragons smothering them. The samurai picks up a sword off his desk that would make Nightmare blush, and the bullets are flying. An interesting fight commences with the samurai being quick and nimble, dashing forward for slash attacks and using a high jump up to the balconies of the room so he can drop some ninja toys on you that he has at his disposle. He takes some skill to kill, and drops a cool sword, along with some smoke bombs that let you disappear for a minute. You grab the money in his safe, head outside only to find a rival gang waiting for you. You drop smoke bombs which let you get to your car. Intense car chase ensues,(you need to get the money to a bank or safehouse or its up for grabs for anyone) with your buddy throwing smg bullets out the side window in some awesome random pvp moment."

This I would gladly pay a subscription for, not some game that like another said I wouldnt even pay 40 bones for with no subscription.

That actually sounds fun. I'd play that.

 

[ColonelVirus]

This is a real shame, I played the beta since it opened and thought it was pretty good. Unfortunately it just didn't have any real lasting appeal, or I didn't think so anyway. I had a friend that worked for the QA team and a lot of them saw that it was going to become very dull very fast. I really feel for the 250 guys that lost there jobs (mate being one of them), it was an ambition project that only need a little bit more to reach the goal but instead dived head first off a cliff I hope this isn't the last we've seen of David Jones.

It's even more of a shame that RTW was a UK based company, especially as a lot of our industry is going abroad now that the new government isn't giving tax breaks any time soon, although they quoted to the BBC that even a tax break probably wouldn't have saved RTW .

EDIT: Here's the BBC article posted today if anyone was interested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11333582

 

[fenners]

ROCKSTAR. BUY THESE GUYS.

That would be ironic considering the history of how RealTimeWorlds was founded.

 

[ColonelVirus]

Totally disagree. I wanted a grand theft style MMO bad, but what we got from APB was bland and uninspired and not even a real MMO. Lame fetch and chase quests, *stand by the door to grab the package* followed by APB, someone is in your instance! No loot or fun missions is fail. You need to have a real world like WOW, not instanced to hell and back. You need to have missions and loot, and leveling up like " hey dude want to team up with me and take down that hotel ran by the yakuza?" *mission ensues with you and your buddy, shootin up a stylish Japanese motel pickin up some gray quality guns some green quality, maybe pick up some sushi for a rate of fire boost. Your buddy levels up halfway thru the mission "Ding!" "Grats" you say as he picks an armor and clip upgrade for his hard work, grinning sheepishly behind his computer monitor. Then when you make it to the penthouse theres a tattooed samurai bad ass waiting for you, he says " What the fuck are you doing in my motel? After what I got in the old safe eh?, Well... Come and get it!" No time for words as you and your buddy take cover behind pillars with gold dragons smothering them. The samurai picks up a sword off his desk that would make Nightmare blush, and the bullets are flying. An interesting fight commences with the samurai being quick and nimble, dashing forward for slash attacks and using a high jump up to the balconies of the room so he can drop some ninja toys on you that he has at his disposle. He takes some skill to kill, and drops a cool sword, along with some smoke bombs that let you disappear for a minute. You grab the money in his safe, head outside only to find a rival gang waiting for you. You drop smoke bombs which let you get to your car. Intense car chase ensues,(you need to get the money to a bank or safehouse or its up for grabs for anyone) with your buddy throwing smg bullets out the side window in some awesome random pvp moment."

This I would gladly pay a subscription for, not some game that like another said I wouldnt even pay 40 bones for with no subscription.

I put something like this on the APB forums Just minus the japs and motel, and more of a bank heist whilst 2 members escaping via a get away car, and another 2 heading to the roof for a choppa extraction. Alas no banks, no choppers... made me sad But the leveling and weapon idea was a defo, lots of people thought they should have done something more with that. I'm hoping the new star wars will be more like this .

 

[ColonelVirus]

That would be ironic considering the history of how RealTimeWorlds was founded.

Indeed. I think DJ would be more likely to jump in the tay river than join Rockstar again lol.

EDIT: Was meant to reply and quote in my previous post... but hit reply instead arg at my forum failness.

 

[TheYanger]

Microsoft destroys yet another studio. Quite sad to see this. I don't think they ever got over not being greenlit for Crackdown 2, it put their entire studio in disarray.

Because MS was totally responsible for RTW focusing on APB, they were OFFERED Crackdown 2 but were busy making their dream game. You realize they were designing APB before they even made the first Crackdown, it literally was developed in the middle of APB development.

 

[Shaneus]

sucks. guess they aren't going to roll out the 1.4.2 patch then. Maybe someone will pick up the former staff.

Ruffian?

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Does anyone still play Aion?

 

[ColonelVirus]

Because MS was totally responsible for RTW focusing on APB, they were OFFERED Crackdown 2 but were busy making their dream game. You realize they were designing APB before they even made the first Crackdown, it literally was developed in the middle of APB development.

I heard that they wanted to do Crackdown 2 but the team that worked on it, or some of them, left RTW to form Ruffian games (which DJ didn't care about apparently, because of APB) which got the green light from MS to make it, as they had worked on the previous one. (All my knowledge is based on someone who worked at RTW).

But he coulda got it wrong. You never know in this day and age

 

[Neuromancer]

Because MS was totally responsible for RTW focusing on APB, they were OFFERED Crackdown 2 but were busy making their dream game. You realize they were designing APB before they even made the first Crackdown, it literally was developed in the middle of APB development.

Copied from a post I made over on the other APB thread, here's a direct quote from an interview with RTW studio manager Colin Macdonald at Eurogamer:

There was a lot made in the press of the Crackdown franchise passing to Ruffian. How much of what we hard was actually true?

Most of the guys individually at Ruffian are still friends. There is tension between the companies dealing with the triangle between us Microsoft and Ruffian because, at the end of the day, Crackdown was our baby. We slogged for five years to make Crackdown when many other people didn't believe in it and it was Dave Jones' long-term vision and belief and persistence that made it happen and made it great. We were desperate to work on the sequel but Microsoft weren't and it wasn't until four or five months in that they decided that they wanted a sequel. Unfortunately, by that point we had moved on.

We can understand that from a certain perspective that Microsoft wanted to wait and see how the product does but it's annoying that they somehow didn't realise that we needed to stay in business. If they weren't willing to commit to us we needed to commit to something else.

It's just unfortunate. It's all in the past now. Both Crackdown 2 and APB are coming out soon and we hope that they're both a big success because Crackdown 2 being a big success is testament to all the work that we put in for the five years it too to make the original. It's really a double whammy for us.

I believe this quote shows that Real Time Worlds was ready and willing to start work on Crackdown 2 but Microsoft was a little bitch about it. By the time MS made up their minds, things were too far down the road with APB. Now you can criticize the choice to not pause or cancel APB perhaps, but you have to at least shift some of the blame for this whole fucked up situation to Microsoft.