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[zon]

uh.. FHUTA?

 

[Diablos]

Free Will is a great song!

 

[Particle Physicist]

God gave man free will so that man's love for God will actually have meaning.

because if God can just command you to 'love" then there isn't much to it...but if man decides to love God of his own will then God feels much better

this proves that GOD is a woman ^_^

:lol

 

[DeathCabCute]

You watched Donnie Darko this weekend didn't you?

 

[Zaptruder]

I can't understand how people that don't believe in God also don't believe in free will.

You are not a slave to your society, to your family, to your friends, to your environment, to your geographic region, to anything. You neither owe anything to any god, nor do you fear any devil.

You have choices - even if you remain apathetic and stagnant (set in your ways), that is still a constant conscious choice.

Only through such a viewpoint of the world can anyone's actions be truly viewed as moral or immoral. One does not need God to define morality. People make conscious choices to help or harm one another, and both have deserved consequences.

Denying free will is like saying that the man that commits a crime is not to blame for his own actions, that a man that succeeds did not do so on his own merits, that everything that happens is predetermined by genetics, or fate, or the will of God. Bullshit.

I didn't abandon Yahweh just to make a new God for myself out of fate or science. My mind is my own, and I am the only one responsible for the choices I make.

Freewill is a strong illusion, a strong desire. It plays into our god complexes; the idea that we can make whatever we choose happen if we put our mind to it. And the god complex itself stems from a strong desire of survivability, written into our genes.

... the practical affect of acknowledging that we may not necessarily have as much of a free will as we would like to imagine we do, is not that we abandon and lose all hope. Like I said, the experience regardless of freedom of will is still genuine. We should still strive for a positive life experience; which in itself has to come from a deeper understanding of cause and effect. Understand it, and it'll create empathy, and hopefully in turn allow people to balance priorities more carefully, to distribute opportunities more equally so that merit may truly play its course.

People use God, freewill... that kinda stuff to justify their existence; I mean, if we're just automatons, and no meaningful consequences exist to our actions, why bother right?
Maybe; but we are still human. What we are wired for is still survival. And what we experience is still genuine. No need to extinguish that just because we think we don't have free will; simply use the understanding to achieve more purposeful goals.

I mean... even without the 'freedom of will', the events still need to play out. Even if in theory, the events will always play out in the same way, the events haven't yet played out; and it's in that frame of mind we should act accordingly.

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

I can't understand how people that don't believe in God also don't believe in free will.

QFT

I honestly don't understand it myself. If anything this topic seems like a failed cheap shot at religion (not that that was its purpose).

Freewill is a strong illusion, a strong desire. It plays into our god complexes; the idea that we can make whatever we choose happen if we put our mind to it. And the god complex itself stems from a strong desire of survivability, written into our genes.

... the practical affect of acknowledging that we may not necessarily have as much of a free will as we would like to imagine we do, is not that we abandon and lose all hope. Like I said, the experience regardless of freedom of will is still genuine. We should still strive for a positive life experience; which in itself has to come from a deeper understanding of cause and effect. Understand it, and it'll create empathy, and hopefully in turn allow people to balance priorities more carefully, to distribute opportunities more equally so that merit may truly play its course.

People use God, freewill... that kinda stuff to justify their existence; I mean, if we're just automatons, and no meaningful consequences exist to our actions, why bother right?
Maybe; but we are still human. What we are wired for is still survival. And what we experience is still genuine. No need to extinguish that just because we think we don't have free will; simply use the understanding to achieve more purposeful goals.

I mean... even without the 'freedom of will', the events still need to play out. Even if in theory, the events will always play out in the same way, the events haven't yet played out; and it's in that frame of mind we should act accordingly.

I disagree. Man has always had choice and within choice you have possible ways of obtaining the outcome. The only boundaries that stop a man from achieving a certain outcome would be a lack of knowledge on the subject, which could and would be rectified through research on the topic at hand.

If you tell a man to go to the sun what is stopping him? The scientific facts that state that he would surely die before he reached there, or, the lack of knowledge that restricts him from creating something that will surely be able to do it? Would a lack of resources be the issue? If so, one would think that he has no choice in the matter, but, the fact is that he has the freedom of mind and ability to find some means of procuring said income. What if the resources don't exactly exist? Can he prove that they don't?

Taking it back to the bible. My theology is a tad bit rusty, but, I think I remember reading somewhere that God said something along the lines of "Your words are powerful enough to move mountains." Now, you can take that literally and talk to a mountain until you are a blue in the face but you will see that the mountain isn't going to sprout legs and walk. You could do the smart thing and find a means to do so via explosives or whatever..

Neogaf is the a HUGE example of freewill (I should have used this first). Their may be a set of defined rules in the ToS, but, the only thing stopping you from posting porn is FEAR of the ban stick. Freewill is still there.

 

[JayDubya]

This entire argument right here reminds me why Berserk is my favorite Manga series ever - a world where there is ironclad fate, entirely deterministic, with evil godlike beings, and one man basically saying "No. **** you. My fate is my own."

 

[Piecake]

Sure, I'd appreciate that.



Actually, if God existed, I'd rather he forced me to worship him (or at least created my brain in such a way that I'd want to worship him). That way, I'd not go to hell.

Well, here it is. Like i said, it mostly deals with Ivan and Aloysha.

Ivan’s atheism stems from the fact that he cannot believe that a God would make children suffer, and even if God did exist he should be admonished and shunned because nobody, but a vile being would make children suffer.

Ivan comes up with a theory that states that since there is no God, and consequently no immorality, “Evil-doing must not only be lawful, but even recognized as being the most necessary and most intelligent way out of the situation that ever atheist finds himself” Basically it means, “without immorality there can be no virtue.”

However, Ivan is a very moral person, as can be seen with his example about how could God exist if he makes children suffers. He sees his theory played out to its logical extreme in his father, and Ivan is disgusted by it. He doesn’t admonish his father; he only tries to reel him in when he goes to far. He doesn’t stop him because if he did, he would be going against his theory, and Ivan cannot go against his theory because he only believes in logic and reason. Ivan cannot escape the logic of his idea, and suffers terribly for it.

Ivan does seem to want a new idea, wants something to replace the horrible idea that he believes in now. I believe that this can first be seen when he convinces his family to go see Father Zosima. Ivan asks how his idea can be resolved. How it can be “resolved in a positive direction.” However, he doesn’t accept Father Zosima and Aloysha’s view of the world just yet because he still cannot accept that a benevolent God would make children Suffer.

Ivan’s idea is more fully expressed in The Grand Inquisitor. He basically states that the problem with God was that he gave mankind free will. If God succumbed to the 3 temptations of the Devil mankind would be infinitely happier, and there would be no suffering. He wants a small group of people, who will suffer for knowing the truth, care for every person of the world. Give the people their basic needs, and make sure that everyone is content and no one suffers. Most importantly, force them into believing that there is a God. Basically Ivan wants to take away people’s free will and have a few people give the people everything that they would need to live a comfortable life.

Ivan does not understand, unlike Father Zosima and Aloysha, that faith would mean nothing if it was forced on you. If it was forced on you by God, or anyone else, your soul would not go to heaven; it would not be saved, because you did not choose to follow God. Choice is everything. If there was no choice, nothing would matter. This can be seen when Father Zosima dies and the stench of death reeks up the place. A lot of the monks and people who disagreed with him, or just like to see a good man be brought down, that this is a sign from God that Father Zosima was wrong, wasn’t a saint, wasn’t a good man, and did receive God’s graces. At first, Aloysha has doubts about this, and cries because of it, but once he visits Grushenka his faith is restored. He realizes that faith is everything, and that supposed signs mean nothing. If people need signs from God or evidence from God, then faith in God would mean nothing. Aloysha realizes that and gets his faith back.

Ivan’s dealing with Smerdyakov greatly shook his idea. After the murder of their father by Smerydakov, Smerdyakov tells Ivan that he got the idea of killing their father from Ivan. Smerdyakov thought, if Ivan says everything is lawful, and Smerdyakov greatly respected Ivan, then it must be true. So, for personal gain and interest, Smerdyakov killed his father for money to help him start a new life, and probably for revenge as well. His plan was also predicated on Ivan’s cooperation, and a lot of other circumstances to happen. Smerdyakov needed and basically asked Ivan to go away, and Ivan did. Did Ivan know that he was going to murder their father when he went away? Possibly, but it doesn’t really matter if he did or not because it only strengthens a point and does not make it.

The point is shared guilt. Before Ivan thought that his sins were his alone, and he was only responsible for himself. He did not agree with Father Zosima and Aloysha that anybody’s actions are predicated on a bunch of other people and circumstances. Consequently, man should not judge other men because no one is free of guilt because their actions could, even if they don’t see it, affect or induce or contribute to someone else’s sins.

Ivan starts to realize this, that his actions contributed to the death of his Father, and that he is also responsible for his death. However, Ivan does not yet accept this, because he is still clinging to his logical idea. Consequently he becomes delusional. This is best represented by Ivan’s discussion with the Imaginary devil.

Basically, from what I remember, the devil is mocking Ivan and his ideas, and is trying to force Ivan to recognize that he exists. I believe that means that if Ivan recognizes that his imaginary devil exists then he would be admitting that illogical and irrational things exist, and admitting that he has faith in existence of the devil. If Ivan has faith that the devil exists wouldn’t it be logical that God exists as well? In Ivan’s former mind, faith does not exist, only logic, so he cannot say that the Devil exists, based on faith, while God does not exist. That just wouldn’t make any sense.

Ivan’s delusional state culminates when Ivan takes the stand in Dmitry’s trial. Ivan testifies that Smerdyakov killed their father, and that he is also responsible for their father’s death. He admitted that his actions resulted in the death of their father so he should be judged as well. From this, it seems, even though Ivan is in a delusional state, that he has accepted or is beginning to accept Father Zosima’s and Aloysha’s view on things. It seems like he is accepting their worldview because he is accepting the concept of shared guilt.

Does that mean that Ivan has also accepted God, and turned to the teachings of Father Zosima? I think that is open to interpretation because right after he testified, Ivan goes into coma, or something like that, and doesn’t awake. However, it seems to me that he has already accepted Father Zosima’s teachings or will eventually accept Father Zosima’s teaching after he regains his health. I don’t think Dostoevksy, who believed that suffering was an important part of redemption, meant for Ivan to be interpreted as someone who dies from his illness and never gets saved.

Basically, Dostoevsky agrees with Father Zosima and Alyosha’s worldview of faith, love, and acceptance, and shows the problems and mistakes of Ivan’ worldview. The worldview of logic, skepticism, and doubt.