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[sugarless]

How OCD are you guys about not losing any picture to overscan/having a perfectly centered image? I am overly so and I've really been trying to break the habit.

I don't mind if it's losing parts of the image within the "safe zone" but I hate getting any closer than that. Cannon Fodder on SNES is a traumatic memory for me: it has no safe zone awareness in the screen layout and uses the full image right to the last pixel and as a result I simply couldn't see how may grenades I had. It was always guesswork if I was going to be able to use them or not.

 

[Khaz]

I can't even fathom playing Cannon Fodder with a d-pad.

 

[sugarless]

I can't even fathom playing Cannon Fodder with a d-pad.

In the present day I hear you but this was like, 1993. It would be six years before we even got a PC at home. Cannon Fodder and Lemmings were both games I've only really experienced with a D-pad on the SNES and loved them both anyway, probably because I never had the "better" experience.

 

[NormalFish]

Should try it on the game boy.

 

[sugarless]

Should try it on the game boy.

Oh man I forgot it was even out on GBC! It's actually a very impressive little port. I would totally play it if it came to 3DS Virtual Console.

 

[Galdelico]

How OCD are you guys about not losing any picture to overscan/having a perfectly centered image? I am overly so and I've really been trying to break the habit.

Dude I'm in the same boat, but having to live with consumer TVs, instead of pro monitors - they're almost impossible to find, here in Italy, both in good conditions and for reasonable prices, and people who sell them online are very often super dodgy - kinda helped me to deal with the whole thing a bit better.

Maybe I've been unlucky, but every single Trinitron CRT flatscreen I've got during the last couple of years, had geometry imperfections along the edges of the screen that simply couldn't get completely fixed through service menu fiddling-around. Arching, asymmetric tilt, wobble... Subtle stuff that would be too visible and distracting to me, with no overscan. Plus, I strongly dislike the colored borders you get with many Mega Drive/Mega-CD games, so I ended up finding the one correct H and V size ratio for all my systems, and just cropping a couple millimeters out of the way, on each side.

Slight deformations are still there, but it's like... I rationally realize it can't get much better than that, at least until I'll finally get my hands on an OSSC.

 

[Peltz]

How OCD are you guys about not losing any picture to overscan/having a perfectly centered image? I am overly so and I've really been trying to break the habit.

I don't like to see HUD elements cropped, but it's not a big deal if a pixel or two on some edges don't make it onto the screen. But if any portion of a HUD is cropped then the screen needs repair as far as I'm concerned.

Geometry issues only bother me if it actually fucks up the aspect ratio. I had one otherwise amazing Panasonic Broadcast monitor where everything looked short and fat due to the geometry which was a big-time no-no. But my PVM's have very slight geometry imperfections here or there that don't really bother me at all.

 

[NormalFish]

I'm fairly sure geometry issue are endemic to flat screen crts

 

[TAFK]

Static is usually a sign of interferences. Even though Component is less sensitive to it than RGB, check if your cable is properly shielded and doesn't lie close to magnets (speakers), power supplies or other unshielded cables. Your TV may also amplify the phenomenon with its modern picture enhancements, like sharpening. Can you hear humming sounds in the audio? Do you have other video equipment with Component to test?

Could easily be the culprit since I have a lot hooked up to this TV (all HDMI systems kept plugged in, plus a cable box and lots of power bricks up on the shelving unit). Got a OG Xbox Component cord from the same seller so need to test that, I'll test it out tonight and see how it looks. Also does anyone have experience using some extenders for component cables? The mount I have makes it very hard to keep plugging in new component cables but i wouldn't want to use an extender if there is a noticeable degradation in quality.

 

[Madao]

i decided to pull the trigger and replace my receiver.
my receiver was the last piece of tech in my setup that was there before i started doing research for good equipment with low lag.
the new one seems to have a lagless mode so i should be golden on that front. it also has like 7 HDMI inputs so i can get rid of a switch from my setup and it has dual output so i can eliminate the splitter too (that's how i could capture and play at the same time).
this thing can also scale to 4k. i don't have any displays for that so this is mostly a future proof purchase on top of the other benefits. i plan to have this thing well into the next decade.

the thing i really want to try is to see if it can pass 240p signals. my current receiver doesn't do that so if the new one can, it should provide some interesting results (my TV can accept 240p)

 

[Peltz]

i decided to pull the trigger and replace my receiver.
my receiver was the last piece of tech in my setup that was there before i started doing research for good equipment with low lag.
the new one seems to have a lagless mode so i should be golden on that front. it also has like 7 HDMI inputs so i can get rid of a switch from my setup and it has dual output so i can eliminate the splitter too (that's how i could capture and play at the same time).
this thing can also scale to 4k. i don't have any displays for that so this is mostly a future proof purchase on top of the other benefits. i plan to have this thing well into the next decade.

the thing i really want to try is to see if it can pass 240p signals. my current receiver doesn't do that so if the new one can, it should provide some interesting results (my TV can accept 240p)

Does it only take HDMI? I haven't bought a receiver in years.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I don't mind if it's losing parts of the image within the "safe zone" but I hate getting any closer than that. Cannon Fodder on SNES is a traumatic memory for me: it has no safe zone awarness in the screen layout and uses the full image right to the last pixel and as a result I simply couldn't see how may grenades I had. It was always guesswork if I was going to be able to use them or not.

This is pretty common with Amiga games ported to consoles. Most people were playing them on Commodore 1084 monitors, which had adjustment pots for height and width to eliminate overscan. Hence the developers assumed no overscan (plus they were also using 1084 or equivalent RGB monitors themselves).

I was actually playing the NES on a 1084 monitor in 1990....

 

[Madao]

Does it only take HDMI? I haven't bought a receiver in years.

the new receiver has component inputs. my current one has them too.

they don't seem to be cutting out component from receivers as badly as from TVs currently.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

A new-in-box 13" JVC CRT that I've been following for months was finally delisted the other day; what a bummer.

I already own one identical to it (purchased used) but I had been kicking around the idea of nabbing it and shoving it up in a closet as a backup.

It honestly probably wasn't the best idea to purchase anyway since I'll likely eventually be picking up a consumer CRT from a thrift shop in 20ish inches instead, but still, bleh.

 

[gingerbeardman]

Delisted as in bought or removed from sale?

What model?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Delisted as in bought or removed from sale?

What model?

It's listed as "No longer available."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172342174027

 

[Khaz]

It's listed as "No longer available."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172342174027

Sold outside of ebay most likely

Or he dropped it while moving it around.

You can send the person a message if you want to know, maybe they got bored of having it in their basement and thought "fuck it, I'm dumping it tomorrow".

 

[Narroo]

What TV/Monitor you have? It should work on component cables. Look for internal/external sync mode setting on the tv.

It's a 14M2U. The manual states:

When the EXT SYNC selector is set to the off position (light off), the monitor operates on the sync signal from the G/Y channel.

 

[Mega]

I'm not too bothered by overscan. Maybe a little on my old 20" PVM. The top right corner was squished down, so I put in extra overscan in order not to see it.

Pretty cheap 14" PVM. Quote post for link

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Overscan is a disaster for newer games but most analog 240p games are fine for it since most games were designed around it and the overscanning doesn't trash the image. Especially NES/Genesis games where there's often junk on the edges of the screen it's arguably desirable.

 

[missile]

I'm fairly sure geometry issue are endemic to flat screen crts

Due to magnetic deflection.
Electrostatic deflection is better yet has a lot of other issues.

 

[TeaJay]

I'm fairly sure geometry issue are endemic to flat screen crts

More or less. I hear tales of screens with perfect geometry. Alas, unfortunately I can't produce a 100% perfect geometry, so I came up with settings that are good for all my consoles. As you can see, for some games there is wasted screen space, but for others, there's not. It's not perfect, but I don't have the patience to edit the values for each game separately. Most of the time it looks fine. Ninja Ryukenden 2 is probably one of the worst offenders - I usually don't see this with Famicom games.

Although the top left corner of my PVM has some kind of color bleed (convergence?) issue. It makes the picture a bit blurred, too. At first I tried to hide it with overscan but then I just couldn't be arsed anymore.

 

[Beer Monkey]

If you want perfect geometry CRTs may not be for you.

On the other hand "pretty good" geometry is geometry that you will not notice when playing games on these beautiful displays.

 

[purdobol]

When the EXT SYNC selector is set to the off position (light off), the monitor operates on the sync signal from the G/Y channel.

Done some digging and PS2 only outputs RGsB in 31kHz mode. So it will not work for games that do not support 480p. If that pvm can handle 480p signal (don't know) it will work for some games. PVM set to RGB and Ext sync off. PS2 set to RGB.
PS2 games with alternate display.

 

[Huggers]

Considering selling my BVM and getting an OSSC and a flat screen. Pros and cons guys? I heard there was an issue with the OSSC and the SNES? All my consoles are RGB incidentally

 

[NormalFish]

Considering selling my BVM and getting an OSSC and a flat screen. Pros and cons guys? I heard there was an issue with the OSSC and the SNES? All my consoles are RGB incidentally

It's more about your display than the ossc. You'll need to do some research.

 

[Huggers]

It's more about your display than the ossc. You'll need to do some research.

Just read up some more about it. Total deal breaker on the OSSC for me. It seems the OSSC sends a non standard signal from the SNES and a lot of TV's aren't keen on this. Hmmm. Maybe a Framemeister, was hoping not to spend that much cash tbh

 

[Galdelico]

Considering selling my BVM and getting an OSSC and a flat screen. Pros and cons guys? I heard there was an issue with the OSSC and the SNES? All my consoles are RGB incidentally

The biggest negative I can think of, about the OSSC, is the HUGE wait-list you have to enter, before you can even consider buying one. I'm around 1000 and I signed said list in August, I guess? With the actual trend - there is a batch of 500 units coming up soon, but it will probably reach 6-700 of those already in line - and assuming people kept signing in, you may have to wait until mid 2017, now.

 

[ToD_]

I always adjust the image to fit the screen properly when I plan on actually playing a certain system for a good amount of time. Lately I have been switching between a SNES and Neo-Geo frequently. From SNES to Neo-Geo that means I have to shift the image down, a tad to left and squeeze horizontally to fit properly. Thankfully, the BVM offers simple controls for that but it does get a little tedious.

I am also considering getting an OSSC at some point. Not to abandon CRTs, but it would be nice to have the option to play on a larger screen, and it is more of a future proof system.

Oh, retro gaming... where the rabbit hole goes deep and wallets get emptied.

 

[gingerbeardman]

Boom.

3x PVM-1453MD

(2 now for sale in SE London)

Will all clean up nicely, and no burn in! Yet to see if I can find the running time.

 

[Huggers]

The biggest negative I can think of, about the OSSC, is the HUGE wait-list you have to enter, before you can even consider buying one. I'm around 1000 and I signed said list in August, I guess? With the actual trend - there is a batch of 500 units coming up soon, but it will probably reach 6-700 of those already in line - and assuming people kept signing in, you may have to wait until mid 2017, now.

Wow. Okay now that is a deal breaker. I'm going to need something much sooner than that. Cheers for the heads up

 

[Fuzzy]

You should totally run all three at the same time and take some pictures.

 

[gingerbeardman]

You should totally run all three at the same time and take some pictures.

I'd need extra cables that I don't have.

Would be cool though!

 

[KC-Slater]

Considering selling my BVM and getting an OSSC and a flat screen. Pros and cons guys? I heard there was an issue with the OSSC and the SNES? All my consoles are RGB incidentally

I am also considering getting an OSSC at some point. Not to abandon CRTs, but it would be nice to have the option to play on a larger screen, and it is more of a future proof system.

Oh, retro gaming... where the rabbit hole goes deep and wallets get emptied.

I am loving my OSSC. I use it WAY more than my PVM. I am using it with a Panasoinic Professional Plasma that is very accommodating when it comes to various input specifications/signals. YMMV depending on your television.

That being said, even the most fickle consoles will almost certainly work with a PC monitor. (My display is more akin to a monitor than a television.)

 

[Galdelico]

I am loving my OSSC. I use it WAY more than my PVM.

Just out of curiosity, did the firmware/OS/whatever manages OSSC's video settings get any substantial update, so far? I remember it being pretty barebones - in terms of image customization - at the time you posted your first impressions.

Wow. Okay now that is a deal breaker. I'm going to need something much sooner than that. Cheers for the heads up

Sorry for having brought bad news.
I'd want it much sooner too, but I can only wait - and hope a good chunk of people in line will get eventually tired, and move out of the way to free some slots

Spoiler

(yeah I don't see this happening either )

- and that's because I know myself and I know I won't be able to deal with the few - but crucial, to me - shortcomings of the Framemeister.
On a serious note, we don't know whether the OSSC production will always remain so painfully slow, or not. Hopefully, at some point, they'll manage to provide a more consistent supply of units, throughout the whole year.

 

[ToD_]

I am loving my OSSC. I use it WAY more than my PVM. I am using it with a Panasoinic Professional Plasma that is very accommodating when it comes to various input specifications/signals. YMMV depending on your television.

That being said, even the most fickle consoles will almost certainly work with a PC monitor. (My display is more akin to a monitor than a television.)

I think I just joined the waiting list. Subscribing to the mailing list is sufficient? There doesn't appear to be a preorder option.

I also use a professional plasma (Pioneer) and I have a DVDO Edge in case I need some scaling tweaks, which I read works well with the OSSC. I should be in good shape as far as hardware goes.

 

[Huggers]

Just out of curiosity, did the firmware/OS/whatever manages OSSC's video settings get any substantial update, so far? I remember it being pretty barebones - in terms of image customization - at the time you posted your first impressions.



Sorry for having brought bad news.
I'd want it much sooner too, but I can only wait - and hope a good chunk of people in line will get eventually tired, and move out of the way to free some slots

Spoiler

(yeah I don't see this happening either )

- and that's because I know myself and I know I won't be able to deal with the few - but crucial, to me - shortcomings of the Framemeister.
On a serious note, we don't know whether the OSSC production will always remain so painfully slow, or not. Hopefully, at some point, they'll manage to provide a more consistent supply of units, throughout the whole year.

Out of interest what are the Frameisters short comings for you?

 

[Galdelico]

Out of interest what are the Frameisters short comings for you?

The main one is the notorious sync drop you get with those games that use different screen resolutions (i.e. one for the menus, and another one for the actual graphics). That's a total deal-breaker to me. I just can't force myself buying a device that would prevent me to enjoy even a few games in my collection - and they're not minor either, since we're talking about PS1 Silent Hill, Nintendo 64 Resident Evil 2 kinda stuff... - plus I'm not a huge fan of how scanlines look on it, bot at 720p and 1080p. Also, even if it wouldn't bother me that much, the Mini adds a little bit of extra lag to your gaming experience.

I think I just joined the waiting list. Subscribing to the mailing list is sufficient? There doesn't appear to be a preorder option.

Yep, that's the only option.

 

[NormalFish]

Honestly at this point my biggest gripe with the framemeister is the poor layout of inputs, poorly designed OSD, and lack of RGsB.

The resolution swap downtime is a bummer but it's a nonissue for like 95% of games.

 

[Mega]

Boom.

3x PVM-1453MD

(2 now for sale in SE London)

Will all clean up nicely, and no burn in! Yet to see if I can find the running time.

There's no operation time setting on PVMs. Only BVMs. If it has no major screen issues and still looks relatively sharp, bright and saturated without having to crank up any dials, then you've got a good one on your hands that has seen low-medium use.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Honestly at this point my biggest gripe with the framemeister is the poor layout of inputs, poorly designed OSD, and lack of RGsB

The IR for the remote being shit.

The resolution swap downtime is a bummer but it's a nonissue for like 95% of games.

Probably more like 99.9%. There are a few notables like Chrono Cross, Silent Hill, and RE2 N64 but the only time in 1.5 years of use that I've encountered it is going from system menus to games on GC and PS2. It's actually kind of a bummer not fully seeing the GC intro.

 

[NormalFish]

The IR for the remote being shit.



Probably more like 99.9%. There are a few notables like Chrono Cross, Silent Hill, and RE2 N64 but the only time in 1.5 years of use that I've encountered it is going from system menus to games on GC and PS2. It's actually kind of a bummer not fully seeing the GC intro.

PS1 intro, too, unfortunately.

And yeah, it's an extreme minority of games that actually swap. And even boxes like the OSSC don't handle that perfectly.

 

[Galdelico]

PS1 intro, too, unfortunately.

And yeah, it's an extreme minority of games that actually swap. And even boxes like the OSSC don't handle that perfectly.

Really?
I thought there were videos showing the same games that the Mini has issues with, running perfectly fine with the OSSC (I rememeber Chrono Cross and a couple of Saturn games with hi-res menus and 240p graphics).

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Really?
I thought there were videos showing the same games that the Mini has issues with, running perfectly fine with the OSSC (I rememeber Chrono Cross and a couple of Saturn games with hi-res menus and 240p graphics).

Depends somewhat on the display you're using, but there's still like... a second, maybe a little less, of delay, when switching between 240p and 480i. In practice, it's quick enough that I wasn't bothered at all. And I'm easily bothered.

 

[NormalFish]

Really?
I thought there were videos showing the same games that the Mini has issues with, running perfectly fine with the OSSC (I rememeber Chrono Cross and a couple of Saturn games with hi-res menus and 240p graphics).

Depends somewhat on the display you're using, but there's still like... a second, maybe a little less, of delay, when switching between 240p and 480i. In practice, it's quick enough that I wasn't bothered at all. And I'm easily bothered.

Yeah, it's not nearly as bad as the framemeister, but you still typically get a blip where the signal drops and resyncs. Just the nature of these things.

Apparently it's exacerbated by a number of things including splitters, capture cards (for recording), etc.. Not sure how much veracity those claims have at this point.

 

[mikespit1200]

Does anyone have experience with a Framemeister on a 4k TV? I'm coming to the conclusion that I just want to game exclusively (modern and retro) on my Vizio 4k TV. The framemeister seems to be geared for 1080p so I don't know if the lag will be noticeable on my Vizio. I purposely got this one model, 2015 M-series, because of the low lag. But I'm thinking that the lag of upscaling 1080p plus the framemeister might be a dealbreaker. I'm on the waiting list for the OSSC, but who knows when I'll be able to get one.

edit: so my set is rated for 1080p @ 60Hz 18.5 ms. What is the framemesiter, 16ms? so 34.5? Is that acceptable?

 

[purdobol]

Mega you have experience with RGB matrix swtichers. Are these units process sync signals, or just act as typical pass through?

For example:
If I connect RGsB (IN) --> RGBS (OUT) --> TV/Monitor. Will I get that sync signal on V line (Vertical sync BNC connector)?
Or if i connect RGB HV (IN) --> RGBS (OUT) --> TV/Monitor. Will i get Csync on V line?
And so on.

 

[Peltz]

You should totally run all three at the same time and take some pictures.

I used to do this with 3 monitors. All running from the same console. It was really cool for no reason at all.

 

[NormalFish]

Does anyone have experience with a Framemeister on a 4k TV? I'm coming to the conclusion that I just want to game exclusively (modern and retro) on my Vizio 4k TV. The framemeister seems to be geared for 1080p so I don't know if the lag will be noticeable on my Vizio. I purposely got this one model, 2015 M-series, because of the low lag. But I'm thinking that the lag of upscaling 1080p plus the framemeister might be a dealbreaker. I'm on the waiting list for the OSSC, but who knows when I'll be able to get one.

edit: so my set is rated for 1080p @ 60Hz 18.5 ms. What is the framemesiter, 16ms? so 34.5? Is that acceptable?

that'll probably end up being about 2.5 frames of lag. For a fighter, shmup, or something else that's very sensitive that might start to be a problem. for less punishing genres that's not so bad. It's a subjective thing, though.

 

[Brhoom]

Does anyone have experience with a Framemeister on a 4k TV? I'm coming to the conclusion that I just want to game exclusively (modern and retro) on my Vizio 4k TV. The framemeister seems to be geared for 1080p so I don't know if the lag will be noticeable on my Vizio. I purposely got this one model, 2015 M-series, because of the low lag. But I'm thinking that the lag of upscaling 1080p plus the framemeister might be a dealbreaker. I'm on the waiting list for the OSSC, but who knows when I'll be able to get one.

edit: so my set is rated for 1080p @ 60Hz 18.5 ms. What is the framemesiter, 16ms? so 34.5? Is that acceptable?

I think in the pervious OT there were pictures, and I asked the same question and everyone said the same thing, that it was really good.

I've read that setting it for 720p is better for 4k, but so far I've seen no complaints about upscalers and 4k.

OSSC is a different matter that you need to search by yourself, I just asked about the Framemeister here and the replies were positive.

Edit: oops I thought your question included image quality, I know nothing about lag sorry.