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Revolution Specuation Thread Mark II (UNCONFIRMED RUMORS AND EVERYTHING ELSE GO HERE)
- Thread starter choplifter
- Start date
kaizoku said:
I'm pretty sure it came from someone on the Nintendo.com message board who claimed to have got it from an NOA spokesperson. Could be true could be utter rubbish.
Touch sensitivity could just be in reference to the depth functions of the controller.
Obviously if you had an object on screen and pushed the remote forward and the object distorted inwards or was pushed backwards then i guess in a way it's touch sensitive (or at least push sensitive).
I don't buy that the controller itself is touch sensitive, certainly not in the same way as the DS.
I suppose it could just be going back to the old rumors of the type of feedback in Warioware twisted be used or some other form of haptic feedback.
There was an interview with someone from NOE just after the TGS where it was claimed that the controller contained a tilt sensor that will generate different counterweights/counterbalances.
http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=79041&page=1&pp=50&highlight=Revolution+rumble
Francois the Great said:
You're right on both counts. Nintendo never said that (implied yes, quoted...no) and a color touch screen on the REVmote would be a bit too much. While I'm not one to shoot down speculation about a screen on a controller I do not think that this is what EA meant by "touch sensitivity". I think that and the last "secret" has to do with a new form of form feedback...
The REVmote is held in one hand, it's small and will already contain a gyro or two...so really, it would be very easy to impliment more advanced force feedback which could be what this "touch sensitivity" comment means. It wouldn't take much to move or jar a small one-handed controller and a gyro could easily simulate rumbling, jarring & vertigoism thru subtle vibrations...even moreso if there's 2 gyro's which move in opposing or joint dirrections causing the player to experience not just force feedback, but touch sensitivity.
As far as a screen goes on the REVmote, it's possible if that blog dude's devkit REVmote is to be believed. Right around where the home/start/select buttons are, the thing was blacked out like as if we weren't suppossed to see what was there. If it is a screen, I'm not expecting much more than a DC VMU type screen for player specific stats...in other words, not a touch screen, not even color. However, I don't think a screen is even likely 'cos there's lights on the bottom of the controller that indicate player #, so that eliminates alot of the practicality needed for a built-in screen.
My bet is the "secret" has to do with a more advanced force feedback in the REVmote...
Frank the Great
Banned
Taker666 said:
ah yes, now i remember, that is where it came from.
Ignoring force feedback in the controller as a whole, I wonder if they could have sort of haptic feedback in the big A button?
Obviously for the majority of games your thumb or finger will constantly be on the A, whether you are pressing it or not.
Would it be possible to have something under the A button which could raise and lower it slightly and cause different texture effects? Say when the onscreen cursor comes to a bumpy surface, could they perhaps raise and lower the A button depending which part of the bump the cursor was moving over?
I've seen similar things mooted for touchscreens and styluses.
Obviously for the majority of games your thumb or finger will constantly be on the A, whether you are pressing it or not.
Would it be possible to have something under the A button which could raise and lower it slightly and cause different texture effects? Say when the onscreen cursor comes to a bumpy surface, could they perhaps raise and lower the A button depending which part of the bump the cursor was moving over?
I've seen similar things mooted for touchscreens and styluses.
Crazy Harry
Member
I think it is feasible, if i remember correctly the workings of a flywheel.Javaman said:
The flywheel will start rotating when you start the console.
When the flywheel is rotating it just needs to be moved very slightly to give a clear sense of force.
It will cost a lot of power though.
Nice to see we've gotten back into serious discussion!
Special Force Feedback...
If 3RD party controller makers can make wireless controllers with rumble, then certainly Nintendo can...and improve upon it without being a battery drainer. I think this is very likely the "secret" and can be acheived thru 2 gyros that work in unison or against each other to give more more feeling than a basic rumble pak could.
Sensory Feel Button...
I had this theory back when the whole "touching is good, feeling is better" nonsence about what I called a Sensory Feel Button that goes beyond what Taker666 said. Imagine a brail reader (a small gadget that converts written text into brail) in a button. There's small rubber "fibers" that raise & lower which give the thumb brail messages...well...what if they gave symbols & textures as well? What if they could even be "animated" giving the user a sense of something moving or flowing with their presses? Tons of things could be done and it would really allow the game to "touch" you back. Putting such function in that big A button would be awesome. Imagine a survival horror game where you're in the dark and your using the 3D spacial control of the REVmote to search for a match...the Sensory Feel Button could let you know where it is by you actually feeling it...or... to mess with your head, you could feel a spider crawling over your thumb! Puzzle games would work for this too by constantly changing shapes and whatnot. Games that require timing would work great too 'cos the button could trick you into losing concentration and pressing too soon.
I think this idea would be killer immersive and is totally doable. That blogger devkit REVmote pic with the top part of the controller being blacked out could be to "cover up" something like this as the button would look different than what we've seen. Of course, that pic is probably fake, or it could just be covering something else up.
Either the "Sensory Feel Button" or the "Touch Sensitive Force Feedback" could be implimented into the existing REVmote controller without us knowing/finding out since both functions wouldn't be noticable asthetically.
Special Force Feedback...
If 3RD party controller makers can make wireless controllers with rumble, then certainly Nintendo can...and improve upon it without being a battery drainer. I think this is very likely the "secret" and can be acheived thru 2 gyros that work in unison or against each other to give more more feeling than a basic rumble pak could.
Sensory Feel Button...
I had this theory back when the whole "touching is good, feeling is better" nonsence about what I called a Sensory Feel Button that goes beyond what Taker666 said. Imagine a brail reader (a small gadget that converts written text into brail) in a button. There's small rubber "fibers" that raise & lower which give the thumb brail messages...well...what if they gave symbols & textures as well? What if they could even be "animated" giving the user a sense of something moving or flowing with their presses? Tons of things could be done and it would really allow the game to "touch" you back. Putting such function in that big A button would be awesome. Imagine a survival horror game where you're in the dark and your using the 3D spacial control of the REVmote to search for a match...the Sensory Feel Button could let you know where it is by you actually feeling it...or... to mess with your head, you could feel a spider crawling over your thumb! Puzzle games would work for this too by constantly changing shapes and whatnot. Games that require timing would work great too 'cos the button could trick you into losing concentration and pressing too soon.
I think this idea would be killer immersive and is totally doable. That blogger devkit REVmote pic with the top part of the controller being blacked out could be to "cover up" something like this as the button would look different than what we've seen. Of course, that pic is probably fake, or it could just be covering something else up.
Either the "Sensory Feel Button" or the "Touch Sensitive Force Feedback" could be implimented into the existing REVmote controller without us knowing/finding out since both functions wouldn't be noticable asthetically.
the androgyne
Member
DrGAKMAN said:
I haven't seen this, any chance you can link me up?
Hoo boy...lemme see if I can find it...the androgyne said:
EDIT: That was quicker than I thought I'd find it:
Again, probably fake and I can't remember which blog had it first, but there ya go. Just found it odd that it was blacked out there...like there was something special there?
the androgyne
Member
Good lord thats small! Incredibly hard to tell if its real! The hand looks like it's texture mapped 
Keru_Shiri
Member
This idea would be incredible, but could they feasibly put the "fibers" anywhere else in the controller aside from/in addition to the big A button? Like, say, where the palm meets the back of the contoller.DrGAKMAN said:
Keru_Shiri said:
Too many fibers would be required and there would be too much risk of damaging/dirtying them...it's one thing to spill a drink on a self-contained button (easier to clean), but if a large part of the controller uses these sensory fibers then...it would most likely be ruined.
For the underside of the controller though, they could add something that I theorized before called grip sensitive skin. Two thin layers of maleable rubber (like stressball material) with a layer of sensor nodes between that that sense where & how intense the controller is being touched/gripped. They would have to change the shape of the REVmote (which defeats it's asthetic purpose) to make it more ergonomical/durable for "grip control".
Keru_Shiri
Member
Awww... come on, the theories are quite good, especially when considering some of the other Rev rumors flying around.GaimeGuy said:Gakman I will give you a metaphorical cookie if you don't post any more "theories" on the revolution until E3.
Unless you fear the impending hype some of his theories could cause...
DrGAKMAN said:Hoo boy...lemme see if I can find it...
EDIT: That was quicker than I thought I'd find it:
Again, probably fake and I can't remember which blog had it first, but there ya go. Just found it odd that it was blacked out there...like there was something special there?
:lol That picture there came from this blog:
http://revolutiondevelopment.blogspot.com/2005/12/thank-you-nintendo.html
Some guy with no life pretending to be a game developer. The blog is still active.
soundwave05
Member
I think the Rev controller right now is more or less what the final version is going to be.
"Feel" functionality isn't that useful IMO. How many games would really use it? It doesn't really even make sense to be able to feel things like grass in a Mario game unless Mario is barefoot.
Maybe as a controller add-on (which Nintendo has discussed) it could be done, but putting it into the main controller would just add additional cost to a controller that Nintendo is probably going to have a hell of a time selling for $40-$50 as is.
I think the big "secret" that Nintendo has is the system is going to be under $200 ... $150 at launch to make it more accessible to wider audiences.
People take these kinds of comments and always overblow them ... the big "secret" of the GameCube control was the analog trigger click.
"Feel" functionality isn't that useful IMO. How many games would really use it? It doesn't really even make sense to be able to feel things like grass in a Mario game unless Mario is barefoot.
Maybe as a controller add-on (which Nintendo has discussed) it could be done, but putting it into the main controller would just add additional cost to a controller that Nintendo is probably going to have a hell of a time selling for $40-$50 as is.
I think the big "secret" that Nintendo has is the system is going to be under $200 ... $150 at launch to make it more accessible to wider audiences.
People take these kinds of comments and always overblow them ... the big "secret" of the GameCube control was the analog trigger click.
SpoonyBard
Banned
soundwave05 said:
I think it would be very useful, if it works like in Wario Ware Twisted. Like for example Advance Wars Rev, you move the cursor on top of a unit and you feel the controller "click".
soundwave05
Member
SpoonyBard said:
You can accomplish this same thing by having the controller just rumble when you move the cursor over top of a unit.
SpoonyBard
Banned
soundwave05 said:
Not really, the effect is not the same. Have you played Wario Ware Twisted?
Another example would be a FPS, where when you get hit you could feel which direction the hit comes from. This certainly could not be done via a simple rumble effect.
soundwave05
Member
SpoonyBard said:
That effect of directional "sense" is already done in some Playstation games -- in Metal Gear Solid when a helicopter flies over Snake in one of the cutscenes, you feel the rumble move left to right as it flies overhead.
The other thing is with newbies, if the "sensation" of touch was too real (ie: something slimy or icky), their natural reaction probably would be to drop the controller as a reflex, so I hope you don't have hardwood floors
If its not a realistic feedback, but just a vague sort of sensory feedback ... well you can already do all that stuff by having different rumble motors on the controller.
Given the cost/benefit ratio too, I just can't see Nintendo making something like that standard on an already expensive controller.
soundwave05 said:That effect of directional "sense" is already done in some Playstation games -- in Metal Gear Solid when a helicopter flies over Snake in one of the cutscenes, you feel the rumble move left to right as it flies overhead.
The other thing is with newbies, if the "sensation" of touch was too real (ie: something slimy or icky), their natural reaction probably would be to drop the controller as a reflex, so I hope you don't have hardwood floors
If its not a realistic feedback, but just a vague sort of sensory feedback ... well you can already do all that stuff by having different rumble motors on the controller.
Given the cost/benefit ratio too, I just can't see Nintendo making something like that standard on an already expensive controller.
Little vibrations are what the PS2 controller does, one rumble in eahch handle.
Warioware is a bit different, it is pretty cool and as its packaged in a normal price GBA game, its not that expensive at all. Its also very small.
Feel the grass or feel slimy? I think thats getting a bit sci fi now. Its force feedback, nothing else. Hopefully when we shoot a gun we feel the recoil, when we pull a level, we feel the gears click, when we clash swords we feel some kind of impact.
All these would be much better than a silly little vibration.
Check out this really old quote from Miyamoto:
I believe interactiveness is everything. Historically, video games have evolved by stimulating the gamer but I believe that we are now concentrating too much on only giving this stimulation. Of course I am involved in giving the player new stimulation, but I would like the player to voluntarily feel it. For instance when Link from the Legend of Zelda pulls on a lever and a grand demo movie shows a door opening, I think this is a giving. I would not make it so pressing a button pulls a lever; Link would merely hold the lever. Then the player can use the controller to pull and open the door. I concentrate on this interactiveness the most.
Hints at playing Zelda with the Revmote. Now what I really find funny is that I remember reading this way before the Revmote was unveiled, and ppl at the time made some hilarious "new controller mock-ups" with a gamecube pad with a huge lever popping out...
I believe interactiveness is everything. Historically, video games have evolved by stimulating the gamer but I believe that we are now concentrating too much on only giving this stimulation. Of course I am involved in giving the player new stimulation, but I would like the player to voluntarily feel it. For instance when Link from the Legend of Zelda pulls on a lever and a grand demo movie shows a door opening, I think this is a giving. I would not make it so pressing a button pulls a lever; Link would merely hold the lever. Then the player can use the controller to pull and open the door. I concentrate on this interactiveness the most.
Hints at playing Zelda with the Revmote. Now what I really find funny is that I remember reading this way before the Revmote was unveiled, and ppl at the time made some hilarious "new controller mock-ups" with a gamecube pad with a huge lever popping out...
Frank the Great
Banned
i will be surprised if a built in mic isnt incorporated into the controller
Crazy Harry
Member
Me neither but that is no secret that makes anyone say wow!Francois the Great said:
Waimea said:
That quote always depresses me. What does that add to gameplay? I don't see it. I suppose it could be more immersive but maybe also annoying. There was an aonuma quote that's similar to this regarding the DS Zelda in EGM so this looks like a direction they really are heading into for Zelda.
pitt_norton
Member
Chrono said:
That quote always depresses me. What does that add to gameplay? I don't see it. I suppose it could be more immersive but maybe also annoying. There was an aonuma quote that's similar to this regarding the DS Zelda in EGM so this looks like a direction they really are heading into for Zelda.
Quotes like yours depress me.
About my ideas of a sensory button, it might work best as an add-on like soundwave05 suggested.
I think the "secret" is it having advanced force feedback...it'd be easy to give dirrectional jarring, resistance & vertigo effects to a small one-handed controller like the REVmote using 2 gyros. Like in a game where you have to hold the REVmote steady to aim, they could give a sort of spinning effect in vibration making it harder to aim. Not really full-on force resistance haptic feeback, but something more subtle that could give the same results. Something that sits more freely in one hand could more easily make the player feel things beyond just a vibrating rumble motor.
I think the "secret" is it having advanced force feedback...it'd be easy to give dirrectional jarring, resistance & vertigo effects to a small one-handed controller like the REVmote using 2 gyros. Like in a game where you have to hold the REVmote steady to aim, they could give a sort of spinning effect in vibration making it harder to aim. Not really full-on force resistance haptic feeback, but something more subtle that could give the same results. Something that sits more freely in one hand could more easily make the player feel things beyond just a vibrating rumble motor.
Frank the Great
Banned
AniHawk said:
wow, i think you just might be on to something
soundwave05
Member
Gyroscopic feedback I think would be a good fit.
However I've never really experienced a product that can do something like that ... is it really possible for there to be "resistance" against the controller movement. It would be really, really cool if they could pull that off.
However I've never really experienced a product that can do something like that ... is it really possible for there to be "resistance" against the controller movement. It would be really, really cool if they could pull that off.
soundwave05 said:
In theory with 3 gyroscopes you could get it to resist movement in any of the 3 axis, depending on which was spinning. Although there might be problems spinning them up and down all the time. You can't just leave them all constantly spinning. Also, how much resistance it could offer is anyone's guess.
What I think it more likely is just a more dynamic rumblepack, with far more levels of vibration. Some sort of feedback is definitely required.
If I'm playing an FPS and I aim at the guys crotch and shoot, I want the recoil to push my hand upwards so I can shoot a stream of bullets through his body.
If I do it in a crowded room, I hold it sideways.
(btw the gun shouldn't move move about to try and emulate how hard it is to aim a sniper rifle, cos sniper rifles do not move about, it will be kind of realistic trying to hold it and point while the game emulates the distance etc as its not a cursor which stays still once you move it into position like analogue or d-pad. You want your target to stay still, you hold your hands still!)
I'm fishing, I want the revmote to feel like a fish is tugging on the bait and pulling me around a little bit.
If I'm playing punch out, I want the controller to snap back into my face like I just got punched.
If I do it in a crowded room, I hold it sideways.
(btw the gun shouldn't move move about to try and emulate how hard it is to aim a sniper rifle, cos sniper rifles do not move about, it will be kind of realistic trying to hold it and point while the game emulates the distance etc as its not a cursor which stays still once you move it into position like analogue or d-pad. You want your target to stay still, you hold your hands still!)
I'm fishing, I want the revmote to feel like a fish is tugging on the bait and pulling me around a little bit.
If I'm playing punch out, I want the controller to snap back into my face like I just got punched.
blame space
Banned
kaizoku said:If I'm playing an FPS and I aim at the guys crotch and shoot, I want the recoil to push my hand upwards so I can shoot a stream of bullets through his body.
If I do it in a crowded room, I hold it sideways.
(btw the gun shouldn't move move about to try and emulate how hard it is to aim a sniper rifle, cos sniper rifles do not move about, it will be kind of realistic trying to hold it and point while the game emulates the distance etc as its not a cursor which stays still once you move it into position like analogue or d-pad. You want your target to stay still, you hold your hands still!)
I'm fishing, I want the revmote to feel like a fish is tugging on the bait and pulling me around a little bit.
If I'm playing punch out, I want the controller to snap back into my face like I just got punched.
Make it happen Nintendo!
johns all like
Member
Nash said:
ok, the 3 gyro scopes sounds cool, but can anyone please explain the physics behind this? if this were to work, how exactly could it resist motion? vibration and resistence to motion are completely different. if you were to draw a FBD of how this would work, i think you'd learn it wont. this is like saying that given 3 large spinning gyroscopes, you could theoretically spin a space ship without having to apply any thrust. if this has been documented as happening, could someone please point this out? ...or i'm missing the point completely.
johns all like said:
A spinning gyroscope resists movement of the axis around which it's spinning. This is what helps keep a bicycle upright, and stop it tilting over when moving.
So in theory with separate gyroscopes, mounted on x, y and z axis could make the controller resist being moved side to side, up / down, or twisted. As movements of your wrist are effectively making the controller rotate around the different axis.
How well it would work in practice though, I have no idea
http://ds.1up.com/do/my1Up?publicUserId=5379721
seems like the editors at 1up are visiting Nintendo.... hmmmm
seems like the editors at 1up are visiting Nintendo.... hmmmm
Chrono said:
That quote always depresses me. What does that add to gameplay? I don't see it. I suppose it could be more immersive but maybe also annoying. There was an aonuma quote that's similar to this regarding the DS Zelda in EGM so this looks like a direction they really are heading into for Zelda.
obviosly in say Zelda.
you could hold the A button which makes link Grab a door or block.
then pull the controller towards you. this could then make the controller have rumble and force feedback so it feels resistance till you let go of the a button when link would then let go as well.
makes sense.
citrus lump
Banned
ant1532 said:
believe
sonikokaruto
Banned
gyroscopes, helmets, wtf?
suppodsedly we already know what most of the revolution is, and we are still posting about this thing? revolutiON!!
suppodsedly we already know what most of the revolution is, and we are still posting about this thing? revolutiON!!